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03-26-2014, 04:42 AM | #241 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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.....I didn't read all ur post right.
Yes, generally, its Elmo, younger bro of the freak Elu, who is, I think grandson of Elmo who is grandsire of Celeborn (another freak). Placing, as you note Elmo as a more distant relative of Galadriel (still in bred. So Irdil, get a life and deal with it). But, in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, there's a very late essay, written by Tolkien, and a month before his death, noting that Celeborn--known also as Teleporno-very unfortunate phonetic (Telep-orno 'silver tree' is okay, but you get my drift). On Alqualonde, the essay points out that They share the same granddaddy. Creepy. And explicitly points out their exemption from the Kinslaying, and notes they made no anti-Mandos-y vow thing, nabbed a boat, got to Beleriand ahead of Feanor (Galadriel's 'unfriend forever'), and fought "valiantly" against the Kinslaying and made another of those stupid "I'm your enemy forever" promises to thwart cousin Feanor, for Feanor's freak show and murderous impulses. Last edited by Ivriniel; 03-26-2014 at 04:48 AM. |
03-26-2014, 05:02 AM | #242 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Nothing freaky about siver hair...they seem to get to be the pretty boy trophy husbands for the alpha females of middle earth, must have something going for them. Also quite possible that Idtrl would have been creeped by Maeglin even if he weren't her cousin. It was just him....
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03-26-2014, 05:13 AM | #243 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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*note to self* I suppose silver hair would add a splash of head turning and so, the alpha elven bois get a bit of leeway to allow some of their crappy behaviour. Still Galadriel smelled of dwarves (I mean, she loved Khazad Dum and sang dwarf songs with them...Did that make her short?) and Celeborn didn't ditch her, even though he vomited tacks and his head turned at the sight of a dwarf. Quote:
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03-26-2014, 05:37 AM | #244 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Plus, if it helps, that gets rid of Teleporno the unfortunate name [by association] as there is no need for a Sinda of Beleriand to have a formerly Telerin name. Or at least, maybe Telporno is better [not Teleporno], which occurs in a very late letter dated December 1972 [the very very late adumbrated tale as paraphrased employs Celeborn I think]. The loss of the vowel in question might possibly be due to syncope... ... although a trained linguist me is not Also, in general for the thread, maybe the history falls in step with the idea that Elves matured at about the same rate as Men. Sorry |
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03-26-2014, 05:41 AM | #245 |
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Well with his background a "We need to talk about Maeglin" situation was perhaps always going to be a possibility. Galadriel was said to be tallest of elven womem estimated at 6"4 and Celeborn of like height. Maybe not exceptional for an elf man though the Teleri were meant to be generally less tall than the Noldo..though the most prominent Thingol, Círdan, Celeborn are all described as tall. Who knows, maybe they are being sarcastic (cf Celeborn the Wise ), maybe it is a euphemism
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Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 03-26-2014 at 01:33 PM. |
03-26-2014, 05:46 AM | #246 |
Pilgrim Soul
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I'm really not sure Telporno is any better....
And I am loathe to lose the notion that Elves aren't full grown til 50...simply because it is nice to describe oneself as still a teenager in elf years (as opposed to long dead in dog years) but I am prepared to reconsider the evidence when I turn fifty...if Gandalf hasn't whisked me off on an adventure of course...
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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03-26-2014, 05:52 AM | #247 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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That's a bit Maeglin weirded Teleporno because Galadriel grew short when she smelled of Dwarves, because utterly, is a bit utterly utterly-est-are you sure? that sure, est, un-lighted?
Late-has-weight (I like the idiom), tho, as u rightly point out, does not always imply accuracy. Though, really, I'm not utterly utterly-est sure he (Tolkien) was so void of neuronal integrity at 73 that he would have forgotten good ole crazy alpha boi Celeborn and all that! The distinct lineage, of Alqualonde carries some weight, imo, coz Galdriel (even as feanor's unfriend forever) was one of the Great-est uber-est. Even ranked as nigh to Feanor......so.....I've always been uncomfortable with her partnering a Teleri who never saw The Trees. It seems to me that Teleporno, for that reason, and of such high lineage, made a better match. [edit]do u have Tolkien's ct and fMRI scans handy? Post em and let's see how much grey matter was left [/edit] Last edited by Ivriniel; 03-26-2014 at 05:58 AM. |
03-26-2014, 06:04 AM | #248 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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When you invent a time machine (and someone helps out with a parallel universe thing), I'll put Turgon on Ritalin to calm him down when Eol comes into Gondolin. |
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03-26-2014, 06:04 AM | #249 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Incidentally, if one is dealing with the 3,000 concept, while the rate to maturity seems to have diminished in Middle-earth over time, I interpret that it remained constant in Aman however. So for those Elves born in Aman, 3,000 actual years must fit [again unless Tolkien was thinking of changing the Annals to reflect this new idea, as it doesn't seemingly work that well for all events, the flight of the Noldor for example].
Tolkien makes it somewhat 'easy' however, as an Elf of 20 Valian Years is almost 3,000 years old. So for Aman the numbers will seem like a normal enough human period, by comparison. That is, if Galadriel seems to be an adult, around 20 'years' old at least, let's say, according to something in the tale, that's still enough real time. Arwen half-elven was married when she was about this age, in Valian Years that is, or Elvish Long Years [since they are equivalent using 144]. |
03-26-2014, 06:17 AM | #250 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Yes twice; although one mention fell out in the second edition. This late version also contradicts Galadriel's role in the Rebellion in The Road Goes Ever On. And while not an impossible thing to explain, it makes me wonder why Celeborn, if 'really' from Aman that is, seemed not to want to part with Galadriel when he remained, for a time, in Middle-earth. He didn't want to go back to Swanhaven 'so soon'? Ahem. Possibly, but it seems odd... ... and even when Tolkien spoke to why Celeborn remained for a time, part of his statement [in an letter that does not appear in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien but was published by Hammond and Scull] included that Celeborn had never been to Aman. |
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03-26-2014, 08:02 AM | #251 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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He was called Sun-shy at one point in the tale. Other dark associations that might be made: it was said that Eol would go abroad clad, in some measure, in galvorn (black and shining like jet) for example. Melian also referred to the dark heart of the Smith when describing one of his works. |
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03-26-2014, 08:22 AM | #252 | |
Animated Skeleton
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Just remember that later she was to a degree forced into marriage with Eol and took ages to escape. My mental picture of Aredhel: http://postimg.org/image/f8voa24b1/ With Maeglin I somewhat agree: Why is okay for Aredhel to fool around with the sons of Feanor (her cousins) but Maeglin can't have Idril? That being said, Idril did NOT want to marry Maeglin, so it makes the whole point moot. Turgon clearly loved and cherished Maeglin and Morgoth had to use his strongest mind control and torture on Maeglin to get him to betray Gondolin. Last edited by Orphalesion; 03-26-2014 at 08:35 AM. |
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03-26-2014, 11:20 AM | #253 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I do not believe Maeglin was ever tortured, only threatened with it, & it seems he in some part actively decided to betray the Elves of Gondolin if he could have Idril to himself.
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03-26-2014, 12:29 PM | #254 | |
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Well then, **** Maeglin, the sniveling traitor, who's dumb enough to believe that Melkor would grant him freedom let alone Idril. Let's hope he never gets out of Mandos. |
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03-26-2014, 01:15 PM | #255 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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In the BoLT 2 "did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of Balrogs" [ch. 3, p. 170] & "the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit" [Sil., ch. 23, p. 299], however, Melkor did weave about Maeglin, "the spell of bottomeless dread" [BoLT 2, ch. 3, p. 171] in which "dread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand" as he left to take his place again among the Elves, "Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within" [Sil.,ch. 23, p. 299].
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03-26-2014, 01:32 PM | #256 | |
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03-26-2014, 08:54 PM | #257 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.
1. Works published by JRR Tolkien. 2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien 3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2. Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published. When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri. "no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men After this I tend to place precedent on things that Christopher Tolkien himself has published. He alone was left with sole authority to print, publish and edit what was left with the notes. Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake. The I take into account what Tolkien's last thoughts were on a matter as long as it does not contradict the first two precedents. However, I am not quick to dismiss detailed essays on brief notes, which at can be ambiguous at best. |
03-26-2014, 09:08 PM | #258 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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03-26-2014, 09:11 PM | #259 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Concerning the aging of the Dunedain we have some information about this in the LOTR. Aragorn at 20 years old was considered early come into manhood and still had not reached complete maturity.
"Elrond looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he had early come into manhood, though he would yet become greater in body and mind."-Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen Slightly before this we are given some indication about when maidens were regarded as old enough to wed. Gilraen, Aragorn's mother, was believed too young and was below the standard age of a Dunedain bride. In fact she was so young her father was going to refuse to let the marriage take place. "To this marriage Dirhael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dunedain were accustomed to marry."-Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. From previous date we learn that Gilraen was born in the Third Age 2907. She wed Arathron in the Third Age 2929. We can estimate what she was either 22 or 21 at this point and considered below the general age of marirage. If we look at the works that Tolkien did not publish we have the case of Aldarion. Aldarion only comes into manhood and full responsibility at the age of 25. Veantur speaking to his grandson says this. " Anardilya, the spring is drawing nigh and also the day of your full age' (for in that April Aldarion would be twenty-five years old)."-Unfinished Tales, Aldarion and Erendis Looking at the evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that Tolkien intended for the Dunedain to reach full maturity at 25 and this would be the age where they would be acknowledged and full accepted as an adult. It also appears to be the age where they would usually be permitted to marry. On the point of Gondorian kings having a beard, it has been many generations since Elros. We know that Elves such as Cirdan and Mahatar were supposed to have beards. The only extensive writing Tolkien had on the subject had Elves growing beards in the third part of their life. I tend to assume that either the kings of Gondor tended to finally grow beards very late in life or that after so many generations some had lost this quality. |
03-26-2014, 09:15 PM | #260 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Yes, Maeglin was pretty okay, with grand-daddy, despite the whole cliff-throwing episode. He was loyal, hardy in battle and pretty good to Turgon. And, really Tolkien? You're going to point fingers at Maeglin for having power-motives in Gondolin, where granddaddy had everything in lock down! Oh let me guess - only Noldorin 'princes' (precious) could dispossess the Teleri in Beleriand, and of course, that's all okay. Yes, the whole of Arda was just for Elvendom. Seriously, it must have grated the Nandor, Sindar and Silvan Elves (and Tolkien says as much in several stories) to have their world run over by raging Noldor, after a Kinslaying - OMG - just to track down some stupid jewels. Now, if that's not precious, what is? |
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03-26-2014, 09:21 PM | #261 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I add though, that what JRRT did at his death bed goes to narrative intention, and as such, I'm not partial to dismissing his will on matters of narrative purpose and about what is a position on textual pre-eminence. That is, just because he had some forgetfulness, late in his life, what right does Chris have to unmake ( an 'un' word) his father's intention for Celeborn (Teleporno). Again, does it make sense that Galadriel, for example, would marry a Telerin sub-lord of Doriath more than grandfather Olwe's Eldar who had seen the Light of Aman? |
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03-26-2014, 09:36 PM | #262 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Finally on the topic of Elvish maturity.
I will first address the brief note that we have in the Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien says that the Eldar aged much the same way as the Numenoreans. "Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' they then aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly."-Unfinished Tales, Line of Elros. This comment here certainly implies that Elves and Men aged MUCH the same and would certainly dismiss the notion of the Eldar taking 3000 years to mature. However, what does Tolkien mean by 'much the same'? Is an elf taking 50 years to mature, a Hobbit taking 33 years and a Dunedain taking 33 years that different? Without any further elaboration I am not convinced that this is enough to dismiss the detailed essay he wrote about Elvish aging. I am unaware of any other source we have from Christopher Tolkien, which further addresses the issue except for 'Laws and Customs' and the part in the Children of Hurin. The Children of Hurin was compiled much later than even the HOME. Christopher Tolkien had even more time to evaluate his fathers notes and take out things he did not think would quite fit. Christopher Tolkien also tells us that Tolkien completed most of the Children of Hurin after the publication of LOTR. "By far the greater part of this work, if not all of it, belongs to the time following the actual publication of The Lord of the Rings. In those years the Children of Hurin became for him the dominant story of the Elder Days, and for a long time he devoted all his thought to it."-The Children of Hurin, Appendix As we can see the quote Hurin and Sabdor supports a similarity between the maturity of Elves and Men, but the Elves having the long childhood. Personally I think it's a very big jump to assume that Tolkien dismissed the idea of Elves maturing at 50 given Christopher Tolkien never commenting on this one note. It becomes an even bigger stretch when we see how the mortal (an ultimately descendant from Man) Hobbits have evolved to reach full maturity at 33. |
03-26-2014, 10:12 PM | #263 | ||
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I often give great weight to Christopher Tolkien's opinion too, but HME clearly illustrates that he did not know very many things, despite his relationship with both his father and his father's works. And with respect to what Christopher Tolkien published as a story -- I mean he published HME and UT as well -- I see no indication that these versions were intended as 'canon', or as any ultimate statement that they represent what Tolkien desired. For example Christopher Tolkien knew the Helm of Hador was intended to have more 'ink' and presence in the Narn, but I think it's fairly clear that he chose not to write it in because there simply wasn't enough Tolkien-written text to employ -- enough for the amount CJRT desired anyway. Is that a reason to accept that Turin wore a Dwarf-mask when facing Glaurung, over the Helm, because JRRT didn't get around to writing 'enough' about the Helm for Christopher Tolkien to feel he could easily incorporate the idea [by trying to be more editor than 'writer' I would say]? Not for me anyway. Or do you have an alternative theory about why CJRT chose the Dwarf-mask for the constructed Narn? I don't think it is in Christopher Tolkien's character to stamp these versions as anything that should outweigh his father's actual texts, and I don't think that's the point in constructing them. He certainly was given authority by Tolkien to edit and publish, but that isn't the same as claiming the one volume versions should have authority over his father's work. Quote:
Christopher Tolkien has never, to my knowledge, pretended to be or desired to be the creator of Middle-earth, but rather he desired to provide a version of these tales for readers. That is, he could at least give readers the intended 'format' or experience, if not his father's ultimate version. And then he showed us the texts behind his constructions, in HME, with a very different, more scholarly presentation of the material he had to work with. In any case, the matter is still not simple, which was my point. You can give your opinions on 'canon' and why you put the constructed Narn and L&C above other texts, and others will take a different approach. So still more complicated than taking L&C alone as a given, which was my point Last edited by Galin; 03-27-2014 at 06:00 AM. |
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03-26-2014, 10:25 PM | #264 | |
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And in my opinion 50 years, or for some 100 years [let's not forget], is different enough to me. You can paint it a 'big jump' as you like, or call it an 'assumption' that Tolkien dismissed the idea... ... but you can't claim you know for sure that L&C is a given here. |
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03-27-2014, 05:25 AM | #265 | |||
Wisest of the Noldor
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Also, there is what I said earlier: Sador's words point to *a* difference- but is it the one in "Laws and Customs"? Or something else again? I don't think there's any way of telling for sure. Quote:
have done so casts doubt on the whole line of reasoning based on Dior/Earendil/Elwing's ages- which was the original point. For that matter just the fact that it's not the *only* version does that.
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03-27-2014, 12:07 PM | #266 | |||
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In addition, Tolkien abandoned the whole idea of using Aelfwine as transmitter of Elvish tales in favor of Bilbo Baggins' Red Book Of Westmarch, but then it seems he may have reconsidered later when compiling the Narn i Hîn Húrin. In any case, the entire LACE section would need to be edited and changed, and Tolkien never went back to it. It obviously was not a pressing item in his agenda, and as C. Tolkien admitted it was "sometimes obscure, and tantalising in its obscurity" -- which it certainly is. Finally, as nearly as I can tell, Tolkien never adjusted anything timewise in his chronologies to account for changes he made according to LACE, nor does any quotes I've seen from either Galin or Cellardur indicated a fixed time for maturity of Elves (or, more importantly, Half-elves); in fact, Tolkien bounces back and forth throughout his life from something as outlandish as 3000 years right down to the same as mortal men. As Galin pointed out, the last mention from Tolkien indicated they aged relatively the same. It is variable and certainly not definitive. It is not canon in the sense that Sauron created the One Ring and Gollum destroyed It and himself in Mount Doom. Quote:
'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.' Does the youth of Men pass soon? Without a doubt. Like I stated previously, considering that up to the most recent times, mortal men died very early, women even earlier (depending on how many children they bore, they were lucky to get past 30). Throw in the plague or even an infected tooth, and death was swift. So they married very early as well, mid-teens was common. The historical record as far back as the Biblical Hebrews indicates very early marriages (betrothal being at 12 1/2 years-old). Tolkien the scholar would be most aware of this information, even without the interwebz. Quote:
But the real question is...did Half-elves have Balrogs wings? And did they sprout them when they grew beards?
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03-27-2014, 01:37 PM | #267 | ||||
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The Eressean orc-origin idea was internally delivered as a belief for instance, but should the reader question the Wise of Eressea? And even if we did, if Tolkien himself had published this 'origin' alone, we might wonder a bit but in the end would still probably be noting this origin as 'fact', at least as far as what appears in the 'true' legendarium that is. In general, Elfwine was supposed to get his information rather directly from Eresseans, which is actually the 'more reliable' [in my opinion] transmission compared to the later idea. I'm going on memory here, but I think the role of Elfwine possibly 'survived' in text until the later 1950s, around the time of L&C. Certainly The Lord of the Rings first edition was published before this of course, but I would have to check the first edition 'transmission references' compared to the second edition to say anything possibly meaningful about that. That said, and not that you said or think otherwise, but the loss of Elfwine might only mean we need a new 'internal author' with some niggling to reflect this... ... but that said too, there seems to be notions within L&C that were revised, or arguably were, or are at least a bit questionable. For example, even the naming customs appear to have been revised according to Christopher Tolkien [compared to the shorter text on naming from the later The Shibbolerh of Feanor]. But I wonder if the 'missing' Chosen-name of the Noldor, for instnce, is only missing due to brevity, and the consideration that it doesn't seem to be a custom among the other Eldar in any case. But certainly I agree that L&C awaited revision if it was to become part of the author-published legendarium. Quote:
And while that works to drastically lengthen the years concerned, for instance from the Awakening of the Quendi [which gives much more time for 3,000 years to maturity to begin to dwindle] to the Rebellion, it just doesn't seem to work in all places, as the flight of the Noldor would take notably long, if I recall correctly. Quote:
But I would be surprised if anything turned up about Elven ageing that could certainly be dated after Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals. At the moment I'm not sure what text is later than the other: the one that represents 50 [some 100], or 3,000 but dwindling in Middle-earth; or the citation from the Line of Elros actually. I'm not sure it's possible to even know between these examples, but I haven't looked at the external dating recently. By the way I do remember it was someone at Barow Downs who opened my eyes to the possibility [and in my opinion probability] that the notion was 3,000 and dwindling in Middle-earth... ... it was years ago now, but thanks to that person |
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03-29-2014, 02:05 AM | #268 | |
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03-29-2014, 03:14 AM | #269 |
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Apparently not influenced by his writing.
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03-29-2014, 10:08 AM | #270 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well I do have nice hair... I mean no bird droppings in it whatsoever, for example.
Wait... 'merely' attractive? Why thank you Beth [if I may call you Beth]... I think |
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