Family tree

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 84</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
http://www.pathcom.com/~aule/files/treebw.jpgwww.pathcom.com/~aule/files/treebw.jpg</a>




Edit note:
With 341 kb (not to mention the 2000*4150 pixels!), I consider this a very big image, which slower connections will have their trouble with downloading. Therefore it is necessary to post it as a link only.
You might want to split it up into more (4-9 or so) parts, Fingolfin, and set the colours to black and white.
Great work, nevertheless!

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000003>Sharku</A> at: 8/10/01 12:43:59 pm

[Theodred21]

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Re: Family tree

Um, Fingolfin, maybe I'm wrong, and I missed them, but I can't find Elladan and Elrohir! Other than that, superb job!

<marquee>http://pub39.ezboard.com/brohan73264Rohan!</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiThe Barrow-Downs!</a>~http://pub75.ezboard.com/barda61763The Tolkien Discussion Board!</a>~http://pub89.ezboard.com/btolkienrealmTolkien Realm!</a>~Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising, he rode singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended; over death, over dread, over doom lifted out of loss, out of life, unto long glory! </marquee></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000011>Theodred 21</A>&nbsp; <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_fire.gif BORDER=0> at: 8/10/01 1:35:32 pm

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Family tree

I didn't make it <img src=frown.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Theodred21]

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Re: Family tree

Who did?

<marquee>http://pub39.ezboard.com/brohan73264Rohan!</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiThe Barrow-Downs!</a>~http://pub75.ezboard.com/barda61763The Tolkien Discussion Board!</a>~http://pub89.ezboard.com/btolkienrealmTolkien Realm!</a>~Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising, he rode singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended; over death, over dread, over doom lifted out of loss, out of life, unto long glory! </marquee></p>

[GandaIf The White]

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Re: Family tree

Could someone give me some information on Glorfindel? It doesnt show him on the Family Tree..

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Maglor68]

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Glorfindel

Ahhh - the great mystery. Tolkien never elaborated fully on the origin of Glorfindel, nor did he ever clarify the two-Glorfindel dilemma. As far as I know he was not part of the great tree. My guess is that he may have been one of the original elves of Cuivenen that followed the host of Finwe (similar to the way that Cirdan followed Elwe but was never part of the great chain). Anyway, your guess is as good as mine.

- Maglor

</p>

[jallanite]

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Re: Glorfindel

Tolkien clearly indicates a single Glorfindel in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), chapter XIII, &quot;Last Writings&quot;, section on Glorfindel.

Glorfindel of Gondolin was re-embodied in Valinor, then returned to Middle-earth either with Gandalf in the Third Age, or in later thoughts, in the Middle-of the Second Age, probably at the same time as &quot;the other two wizards&quot; who in writings of the same time and published in the same chapter also come to Middle-earth during the Second Age.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (thought not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador.<hr></blockquote>We are also told here, and I believe only here, something of Glorfindel's kin:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and it can be assumed that, though he left Valinor in the host of Turgon, and so incurred the ban, he did so reluctantly because of kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him, and had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.<hr></blockquote>Since Glorfindel is kin to Turgon, but appears in no text among the descendants of Finwë, if truly related by blood he would probably be of the kindred of Turgon's mother Anairë (mentioned in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) &quot;The Shibboleth of Fëanor&quot. But he might have been kin to Turgon by marriage, and since Turgon's wife Eledhwen was of the Vanyar, that would explain Glorfindel's golden hair. But Glorfindel is said to be of the Noldor, so if related to Eledhwen,it must have been through his mother.

Also in the &quot;Last Writings&quot; and in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot;, Círdan is said to be akin to Thingol. In note 15 to &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot; Christopher Tolkien notes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In other later writing Círdan is said to have been of the kin of Elwë, but I have not found any statement of the nature of the kinship.<hr></blockquote>It was more than simply being one of the Teleri however. From &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot; under Sindar:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Elwe himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Círdan).<hr></blockquote>

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 8/20/01 6:16:54 pm

[GandaIf The White]

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Re: Family tree

I found this peice of writing..

It is safe to assume that the Glorfindel mentioned in Lord of the Rings and the Glorfindel mentioned in the Silmarillion are one and the same. Aside from the idea that no two elves were to have the same name, Professor Tolkien was dedicated to making the two Glorfindels one, and that should be evidence enough. However, examining the lineage of Glorfindel can further support the idea of one Glorfindel.

It has been speculated that perhaps Glorfindel was from the line of Finarfin, since he does have golden hair. To accept this would be to cause problems for the two Glorfindels theory, since then you would have explain 1.) if either Glorfindel was related to Finarfin, why a second one with similar qualities (house of princes, etc.)? or 2.) If both are related to Finarfin, how can they have the same name? Of course, the latter can be ruled out as impossible. Yet even if you do assume that both Glorfindels are the same, you run into at least one problem: Why is he not on any of the lines of kings, or mentioned as related? I have looked for evidence of his relation to the line of kings in 8 volumes of the History of Middle Earth, and I have seen none. I have examined the Line of Kings, made by our very own Eru, to see if perhaps I had missed something. I have found nothing that would genetically link Glorfindel to the House of Finwe. It was common practice during medieval times to give such positions of authority to relatives or close friends (ex, Maeglin and Tuor becoming lords of Turgon's house, respectively), so the idea that Glorfindel is related is not totally implausible at first glance. However, since he must be related by Noldorin blood rather than Vanyarin blood (he could not be related through Indis since in LotR it says he is Noldorin) he should be on a line of Kings as related to Finarfin in some way. Most, if not all of those related to Finwe in some way were stated as such in a story by the time Finrod (not Felagund) became Finarfin and Felagund became Finrod Felagund.

Second, I offer one example of the intricacies to which Tolkien worked on his lineages as an example of why if he were related to the House of Finwe he should be on one. I will cite the lineage of Aragorn's son, Eldarion. Through Aragorn, and thus through Elros, Eldarion is related to the house of Hador, the Haladin, the house of Beor, Melian the Maia and Elwe Singollo and thus one half of the Telerin House and also the Ainur, and the House of Fingolfin through Idril. From his mother's (Arwen's) side, he is related to not only those but also the line of Finarfin and the second half of the Telerin House through Celebrian, daughter of Galadriel and granddaughter of Finarfin. Both sides also give him a relation to Indis of the Vanyar, who was probably also royalty. The only royal house Eldarion is not descended from (purposely I believe) is the house of Feanor.

If we take this as evidence that Glorfindel is not related to the House of Finwe (more specifically Finarfin), how could he both be a Noldo and have golden hair? I cite two quotes in order to help me answer this question.

&quot;Alone among the Noldorin princes he and his descendants had golden hair.&quot;
&quot;In Tirion upon Tuna the Vanyar and Noldor dwelt long in friendship.&quot;

Both are from the Silmarillion. The first citation comes from the index, in the description for Finarfin. The second is found in the section called &quot;Of Eldamar&quot; (pg 59 of the Houghton Mifflin hardback).
My conclusion: Finwe was not unique in being a Noldo that married a Vanya. It may not have been a common practice between the Noldor and Vanyar, but while living close to each other for many centuries, it no doubt happened between more than just Indis and Finwe. It is interesting that only Finarfin and his line ended up with gold hair, despite Fingolfin also being a son of Finwe and Indis, and his line was unique among the other princes and indeed the Noldor as a whole, but that does not mean other Noldor did not marry Vanyar. Also, as I have said before, one need not be related to get a position of authority (a lord can also be a close friend), the father/mother/other relative of Glorfindel could have been a friend of the house of Finwe, though Glorfindel would most likely have had a Noldorin father. Glorfindel then would've become a friend of Turgon, or perhaps his father was already a lord in Turgon's service, who died in battle, died on the Helcaraxe, or stayed in Aman. These all end with the same result, the Noldorin lord Glorfindel and his golden-haired house.



"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[jallanite]

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Re: Family tree

Gandalf the White:

In my previous post, just before yours, I quoted JRRT's words on Glorfindel that when he joined the rebellion, &quot;he did so reluctantly because of kinship with Turgon&quot;, words it appears you missed.

Glorfindel is therefore kin to Turgon, by blood or possibly by marriage. My previous post gives some possibilites. I concentrated on closer relationships rather than going back to Indis, but Glorfindel certainly could be related through Indis presuming that Glorfindel's father was a Noldo. The Eldar are very partriarchal in their clan affiliations it would appear.

From The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot;, Vanyar:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Owing to intermarriage the golden hair of the Vanyar sometimes later appeared among the Ñoldor: notably in the case of Finarfin, and in his children Finrod and Galadriel, in whom it came from King Finwë's second wife, Indis of the Vanyar.<hr></blockquote>This corrects the carelessly inaccurate attribution in LR of golden hair among the Eldar only to the golden house of Finarfin, denying it even to the Vanyar: this same inaccurate account which has led to commentaries insisting that Glorfindel must be of the House of Finarfin since only there was golden hair found.







</p>

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Re: Family tree

nice

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[cellurdur]

Old topic, but was discussing Glorfindel in another thread and was reading up on the essays about him again.

The little that we know is he was a Noldor.
He was from a House of Princes.
He was blond.
He had a close relationship and was kin to Turgon.

I think it is likely Glorfindel was related to Elenwe, Turgon's wife. She was of the Vanyar and it would explain his golden hair. If Elenwe was related to Ingwe and from the royal House of the Vanyar it would also explain why he was from a House of Princes. In this case his father could be any Lord of the Noldor.

The other possibility is that he was a descendant of Finwe's daughters like Aranwe appears to be. This would make him kin to Turgon, but not enough for his kinship to Turgon to be singled out alone. He would be even closer related to Finarfin, who remained.

I tend to favour the first possibility, though it could be a combination of both. Glorfindel's father could be a descendant of Findis and his mother could be a relation of Elenwe.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We can never know now; but it is the case that not only was G "an Elf-lord from a house of Princes", he was also, in the old version, the chief or lord of the House of the Golden Flower. This inplies very high rank even among the Noldor of Turgon's following, and so kinship either to the house of Finwe or of Inwe (or both) on the distaff side is not impossible.

(In another forum we worked out not long ago that if Gil-galad is restored to his proper place as Orodreth's son, then the Noldor practiced pure Salic succession and kingship descended neither to nor through females)

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

We can never know now; but it is the case that not only was G "an Elf-lord from a house of Princes", he was also, in the old version, the chief or lord of the House of the Golden Flower. This inplies very high rank even among the Noldor of Turgon's following, and so kinship either to the house of Finwe or of Inwe (or both) on the distaff side is not impossible.

(In another forum we worked out not long ago that if Gil-galad is restored to his proper place as Orodreth's son, then the Noldor practiced pure Salic succession and kingship descended neither to nor through females)

As you say we will never know for sure unless Christopher Tolkien decides to use his right to decide cannon.
When speaking about his ban it says this.

'he did so reluctantly because of kinship to Turgon and allegiance to him.'

The kinship to Turgon being stressed over Fingolfin along with the golden hair is what leads me to believe that at least on his mother's side Glorfindel was a relative of Elenwe.

As for the Noldor succession it seems quite a straight forward salic law as you said. After Gil-galad's death there was nobody left in ME with a claim to the High Kingship.

[Ancalagon]

Originally Posted by GandaIf The White

Re: Family tree
Aside from the idea that no two elves were to have the same name

Where is this from? Was there not an elf during the fall of Gondolin called Legolas Greenleaf?