Yet Another Magic/Subcreativity thread

[Yuukale]

First and foremost, I salute all of you folks! It seems to me that this forum is pretty much the last friendly house to high-level (as in: with quotes) Tolkien discussions on the internet.

Second, I must say that I perused most of the threads available on the subject and still have some doubts, that's why I would like to get rid of them as possible.

Well, I suppose that some things aren't "Subcreativity" per se, such as elven/dwarven craftsmanship. This is much more "art" and "knowledge" than, say... "fireball"

I've seen people saying that Legolas' treading on snow would be him employing subcreativity, and I wholeheartedly disagree. That's because elven control of their bodies is so great that they're able to shift weight perfectly, allowing them to walk on snow as if on the ground. Telepathy and the like, by the same token, is Ósanwe-kenta.

That said, Elrond's calling of the bruinen waters can be categorized as subcreativity, right? Not quite technique, but shaping the world throught the power of his Fëa (Soul).

Can I put Finrod/Sauron songs into the same group?

Moreover, is there any place that states humans can't do this? I would take that they can't work "subcreation" because their souls are way too attached to their bodies, in a similar fashion of why they can't send telepathic messages.

[Inziladun]

For a very basic reply, I would say that all creations of Ilúvatar were involved in "subcreation" constantly, as they were continually using and re-arranging things that were already there.

As one descends from the angelic Ainur to the Children of Ilúvatar, the ability to affect the environment becomes less due to the limitations of native power. Elves as the Firstborn generally had more power than Men, with those having spent time in Valinor being greater than the others. Beings like Elrond, with "angelic" blood mad additional leeway, and in his case, his power was augmented by the Ring, Vilya.

Overall, I think the subcreation ability is limited by the amount of one's native power. Men could not learn how to "snow-walk" like an Elf, any more than they could discover the secret of prolonging their lives indefinitely.

And by the way, welcome to the Downs!