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11-24-2012, 08:05 AM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Each Istari had a different mission?
Is it possible that the Istari were picked each for his own inborn talents/nature--Perhaps certain aspects of their nature they themselves weren't aware of? Rather than send say one mighty Maia who could aid Men against Sauron, they sent five very different Wizards.
Saruman was an industrious Maia, of the House of Aule, the Smith, and his most notable quality was his persuasiveness and his voice. Gandalf was of Nienna and learned from her pity and patience and was known most for his wisdom, good counsel and encouraging nature. Radagast was sent by Yavanna. Is it possible that due to their different natures and "specialties" as it were, each wizard had a different purpose? They all had the same GENERAL mission: Help defend Middle Earth against Sauron. But perhaps they were all meant to fulfill that mission in different ways: Saruman by using the power of his voice to sway Middle Earth away from Sauron, to guide with his persuasviveness against the Dark Lord. Gandalf because he was meek yet patient and wise, meant to give counsel and aid but not to lead, to inspire courage in those who lacked it or give encouragment to those who needed it; To help the peoples of Middle Earth falling to despair and from falling from reason. Radagast because he had a natural in born love and affinity with the flora and fauna of Middle Earth, and to protect these and defend them if it came to it. My point being is that perhaps within the larger overall mission of stopping Sauron, each Istari was sent for a particular reason. Not all meant to be Gandalfs, basically. And in saying that, I feel maybe Radagast didn't fail in his mission. Perhaps he didn't do as much as Gandalf did, but neither did he do evil, and he did protect, care for and nurture the birds and beasts of Middle Earth, and the things he DID do proved incredibly important to the history of Middle Earth. Were it not for Radagast's message from Saruman, Gandalf might've continued on and not learned of Saruman's fall until it was too late; And in heeding Gandalf's command, he saved Gandalf from being Saruman and as such immeasurably helped the mission.....I think he served his purpose. |
11-24-2012, 09:01 AM | #2 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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Another point worth considering re:Radagast, the Last two wizards, the blue ones, were BOTH sent by Orome the Hunstman (or more accurately Orome picked Alatar, and them Alatar picked Pallando as a companion.) I wonder if Radagast "sub-mission" was in part to counterbalance the others. Since all of the wizards were to rely basically only on thier powers to convince, it was likey that, as each one DID have thier own "affinity", those affinities might leave thier mark on those people who the Ishtari convinced, whether intentionally or no. Those Saruman convinced might likey becone as pro-tech as he was, Those who grew close to Gandalf might become like Gandalf etc. So with the mission already containing Saruman, lover of machines and tech, and two of Orome's minions, who presumably love hunting as much as he does, Yavanna may have had serios concerns that, even if the Ishari were sucessful, Middle Earth would become a wasteland anyway, as men chopped down the forests to make bigger and bigger cities, and hunted the animals to extinction for the fun of it. In short Radagst may have been sent to play Lorax to "speak for the trees"
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11-25-2012, 11:57 AM | #3 | ||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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But otherwise, I would assume (given what we know) that Saruman's task should have been to search or help those in Middle-Earth to search for wisdom (remember, he was Saruman the Wise, and studied the art of the Enemy in order to be able to counter him, at least in the beginning). I agree about the rest. Also, I very much agree with the notion of Alfirin's about Radagast being a "backup" to make sure the Wizards remembered the nature in their pursuit of victory (just so that e.g. the Free Peoples, after the successfull moral and intellectual boost from the Istari, would not decide to get rid of Sauron by building an armored tank division produced in huge factories which would pollute all the air and would be supplied by cutting down all the forests in Middle-Earth). Quote:
Sufficient to say, one thing: he did not get a "return ticket" on the Last Ship. Though (as I also have mentioned on that thread I have linked), the question is, if he really wanted to even go back - I would argue that he probably even felt more comfortable staying with all the animals of Middle-Earth and the Valar certainly did not have any reason not to grant him his wish (especially as he didn't do anything that would "earn" him the spot on the ship anyway). Or, in other words, using one of my posts from that thread (which also touches on the main point of this thread, regarding the "specific missions" of the individual Istari): Quote:
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11-25-2012, 12:06 PM | #4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Each probably was. The Unfinished Tales chapter
on The Istari addresses these. Though it was more, as far as I can see, the reaction or treatment that defined the Istari. Saruman may not have gone bad if he wasn't grovelled so much by M-e leaders. If, for example, (forget his name) the Steward that gave him the key to Orthanc never did that or allowed him access to the Minas Tirith archives, lack of access to the Palantir & a fixed abode may have mitigated, if not prevented, his evolution of thought. Gandalf got fair treatment, but not 'special treatment', as it were. So his ego wasn't tickled to inflate. Radagast ensured he lived humbly and in 'Wild' lands on the west side of Mirkwood. Nor did he zigzag and seek grovelling. The Blue wizards? Who knows. So in a way, when you think about it, the themes and flow of the story tell us more about how they are treated by other characters than their inherent skills. We get hints of Saruman & Gandalf being lore-masters, but not the full picture. And their decisions influenced by what they saw/did in Middle-earth.
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11-25-2012, 12:16 PM | #5 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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And lack of access to the archives - that is ridiculous. Saruman (or in fact, all the Istari) was supposed to help the folks of Middle-Earth, among other things, with their knowledge. A Steward should then come and say "hey, you have no permission to look into my archives"? That'd be pretty stupid, wouldn't it? Denying information to your allies sounds quite nonsensical to me. After all, it's only information - but what one decides to do with it, that is what counts. And as we know, Saruman eventually used e.g. some of the knowledge of Sauron's to (possibly) for example breed Uruk-hai... but that came from his own mind. And as for Radagast, see above. Remember that he failed. Radagast was on the opposite end of the spectrum from Saruman, but they were both extreme. Radagast went so far in his, as you say, "humble life in the wild" that he got totally out of touch with the "real" world around him, out of touch with the Free Peoples and their problems. (Saruman had the opposite problem, he had forgotten that nature is something more than just tool for the humans. But they both made a critical mistake.)
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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11-25-2012, 08:14 PM | #6 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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The two Blue Wizards are perhaps the trickiest of the bunch to reach any conclusions as. As far as Radagast, I agree with Legate his apathy and laziness to completing his mission of rallying suppport to defeat Sauron meant he failed, however he had never "fallen" to evil. Just as there is evil that exists in Middle-earth, completely independent of Sauron, with a strong power of its own (think Old Man Willow), there are overall good forces yet rather apathetic towards the fight against Sauron. The Blue Wizards are slightly different, because it seems as if their fate is unknown. They travel East, with Saruman (but do not return), and perhaps start cults of their own, or perhaps just die and have very little impact on the events of the Third Age, primarily dealing with Saruman. But in his late writings, Tolkien seems to revise and imply Alatar and Pallando have a huge effect on the Third Age, curtailing Sauron's influence in the East. That Alatar and Pallando were sent specifically to the East (lending credence to TheLostPilgrim's post of each Istari having separate missions) and their actions in the East swayed many away from Sauron who's forces would have simply overwhelmed the West, had they not been sent: Quote:
However, it should still illustrated the point that, I believed all the Istari were sent with sort of a specialized mission, meant to contribute to the overall purpose of defeating Sauron. They were not meant to directly use their power to fight Sauron's power, but instead to use the powers in the people and creatures of Middle-earth to defeat Sauron. Gandalf clearly succeeds in this, with his constant weary fight in aiding Elves, Men, Hobbits, and dwarves against Sauron. Saruman was meant to do much the same, and perhaps use his knowledge of craft and voice to help. Radagast seems most likely meant to get the animals, creatures, and nature united against Sauron. While Alatar and Pallando were specifically sent East to do what they can in halting Sauron's influence in places like Rhun, Harad, and Khand.
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11-27-2012, 10:00 PM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Saruman was head of the White Council at the time, but Beren had no way of knowing whom Saruman really represented (the Valar). Nor
do we know why he cleared him access. While there's the voluntary possibility, it's also possible he used his 'voice' power on Beren too.
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11-28-2012, 04:08 PM | #8 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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11-28-2012, 07:53 PM | #9 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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If we judge by how it performed in the chapter of 'The Voice of Saruman' it would have ideally been used after Beren tells his servants to leave so that Saruman's alone with him. He wasn't 'good' then, he'd already said no to an assault on Dol Guldor and if you check the timeline at the back of TLotR he had already searched the Gladden Fields, etc. Probably already obtained the Ellendil Star from Isildur's body. As well as at least got to the point of spying on the Shire. We don't know whether Beren saw the White Council as allies. Presumably Beren could speak Elvish, like all from the Numenorian line on Middle-earth. So it's logical either Beren voluntarily gave him the keys to Orthanc & Minas Tirith archives or he coerced him when the opportunity came.
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11-29-2012, 05:11 AM | #10 | ||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Of course it is, I said it's my personal point of view. But it's based on what we know about Saruman. He was still not corrupted by the thought about the Ring at that time, and for instance we know he still, for some time, had been discussing with Treebeard rather politely (asking him permissions if he could visit Fangorn at all and so on). He certainly would have wanted to have a base (since it was "cool" and gave him some more authority), but I think he would still be reluctant to "perform mind tricks" (see above my explanation of what I do and what I don't mean by him using his Voice), and, most of all, he would not even need to perform them.
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Another account of this is also in the part about the kings of Rohan: Quote:
There is another sentence in the following text, saying that Saruman "seemed to be a friend for long, and in the beginning he maybe was one in truth". The "maybe", true, makes it sound a little doubtful, but I think there is no need to think that he wasn't. (I mean, there is no "maybe" in the objective way of thinking; the "maybe" is merely the chronicler's note: but in the end, either Saruman was a friend, or wasn't. And I daresay he was, but what is even clearer is that there had been no doubt about him being a friend in the eyes of the Free Peoples - whether he truly had been one or not. In any case, you would not call him "maybe a friend" if he had been walking around mind-controlling people into giving him a fortress.)
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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