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01-05-2012, 06:38 AM | #1 | |
A Mere Boggart
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JRR Tolkien's second-rate prose
Yes. Really.
Well, according to the panel for the Nobel prize for literature back in 1961. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012...en-nobel-prize Quote:
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01-07-2012, 12:44 PM | #2 |
Blithe Spirit
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Ah, you beat me to it, t'other Lal...I was going to post that story too.
I've read one theory, that Osterling had only read the first Swedish translation of LotR, which apparently was pretty dire. What does surprise me is that Tolkien is accused of poor "storytelling"; I know his prose style isn't to everyone's taste but it is a brilliant *story*. I am getting a Swede to check the word "diktning" for me (which was the word Osterling used) to see if "storytelling" really is the correct translation.
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01-07-2012, 12:53 PM | #3 |
Gruesome Spectre
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Things like this are the reasons I don't consider awards earned by books as a ringing endorsement that I should read them. Word of mouth from friends is a much more reliable gauge of quality than the opinions of Ivory Tower academics.
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01-07-2012, 12:58 PM | #4 |
Blithe Spirit
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However, I've never read Ivo Andric so I don't feel in a position to make a final judgement!
Oh and 'diktning' is more about 'poetic creation' than storytelling, my Swedish source has just told me....I'm just asking him if the bit about the bad translation could be true...
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01-07-2012, 01:00 PM | #5 |
Blithe Spirit
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He says the first Swedish translation was "fun but fairly chaotic and not particularly accurate." So there you go.
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01-07-2012, 01:40 PM | #6 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Well, not all people appreciate Tolkien.
I do wonder, though, what Tolkien would have done if he got the prize?...
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01-07-2012, 02:48 PM | #7 |
Deadnight Chanter
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As I've already mentioned commenting on this piece of news over Facebook, I'm actually (at least partially) glad he did not make it - for one, he's in a good company here, with all those great folks who never got one...
... and for two, imagine all the folks who would (I happen to be acquainted with some of the type) who would read Tolkien not because they enjoyed it but because he was the Nobel Prize holder, and imagine all the high-brow nonsense they would then proceed to utter about it discussing it in their literati talk-shows on specifically 'cultural' TV channels, to be followed by some horrid David Lynch movie to illustrate the point about Eowyn/Aragorn situation... The sound of "urgh" would kind of sum the whole matter up for yours truly I may be mightily mistaken over the matter of course
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01-07-2012, 02:52 PM | #8 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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He has a statue in Belgrade. Someone there must have read him. And obviously someone in Sweden. One guy. On the jury. Alone.
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01-08-2012, 08:08 AM | #9 |
A Mere Boggart
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What struck me is that Tolkien was in excellent company as a Nobel reject - Lawrence Durrell, Greene, Forster and Robert Frost all having written things I've loved.
His storytelling was criticised which was very unfair as I have rarely read any story so well told, plotted and satisfactorily wound up as that of Lord of the Rings. To be fair, I think poor storytelling is particularly a modern problem, but even by the standards of his time*, Tolkien stood amongst the very best in terms of crafting a solid story. His prose style isn't innovative, I could agree with that, but it's also never less than good. It's never turgid, always readable, and certainly before you get to Return of the King, where the tone changes, it's a lot more 'light' than many would suspect. People often criticise Tolkien for lingering too much on descriptive passages - they have clearly never read any Dickens or Hardy! *As compared to contemporary fiction which I'm growing ever more jaded about. I keep investing my time in what for 90% of their content are really great novels only to find they fizzle out at the end or the story turns out to have been completely pointless. Gah.
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01-08-2012, 08:37 AM | #10 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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What I can't understand is the jury's appalling treatment of Robert Frost. Not give him a Nobel...because he's too old? Ummm...do the winners have to go on a world tour for a year while wearing a tiara?
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01-09-2012, 01:38 AM | #11 | ||
Blithe Spirit
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Quote:
Quote:
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01-09-2012, 06:15 AM | #12 | |||
shadow of a doubt
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Quote:
Here's the quote from the original article: Quote:
Quote:
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01-09-2012, 07:38 AM | #13 |
Auspicious Wraith
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Bridge on the Drina by Andric is pretty good (that's coming from someone who probably doesn't appreciate literature properly ). It's set in Bosnia and the style of the storytelling reminds me of the Sagas of Icelanders; I think Tolkien would have found something to enjoy therein.
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01-09-2012, 08:52 AM | #14 |
Deadnight Chanter
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Well, surely I have had my share of high-brow nonsense put into it, but then I won't say 'touché', as there is a whole world of difference between elaborate high-brow 'nonsensing' done for the love of the thing as opposed to the same carried out in the name of being considered as clever as the next man by the fellow 'art connoisseurs' :J
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01-09-2012, 04:14 PM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I couldn't care less what the snobbish Lit-Crit's of today think, let alone their dinosaur brethren of yore did. I wouldn't be at all surprised that now Tolkien has removed all the boundaries he faced in 1961, that they won't at some stage get gooey-eyed with Rowling.
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01-09-2012, 04:47 PM | #16 |
Laconic Loreman
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One of the many reasons I'm fond of Pratchett too...with the "Academical" snobs of Unseen University.
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01-10-2012, 05:21 PM | #17 |
Newly Deceased
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Maybe the harsh depictions or Easterlings in the triology played a part in Österlings rejection of the stories. I do not know what translation of Easterling the swedish edition used.
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01-10-2012, 08:32 PM | #18 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Quote:
And welcome to the Downs!
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01-11-2012, 05:12 AM | #19 | |
Auspicious Wraith
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Good spot, Gauteamus!
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01-11-2012, 05:36 AM | #20 | |
Wight
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The Iron Dream
Quote:
I would agree this ought not to be a significant factor in Nobel discussions. Still, Tolkien's depiction of humans from the east and south (Southrons) of Middle Earth are not the most politically correct of all possible depictions. If one is not from the northwest of Tolkien's world, one is apt to be portrayed as a crude evil barbarian in league with the Dark Lord. I am reminded of Norman Spinrad's The Iron Dream, an alternate reality story where Adolph Hitler moved to the United States after World War I, and became a fantasy writer whose major work was Lord of the Swastika. Spinrad was illustrating how close fantasy novels where some races are pure and nobel while all the opposition is portrayed as vile and subhuman might be to fascist racism. If The Lord of the Rings was not intended as a thinly veiled retelling of World War II, The Lord of the Swasticka was precisely that, and at the same time a highly barbed parody of a broad class of good against evil fantasy novels, not just Tolkien's. (Wiki suggests that the intended primary target of the satire wasn't specifically Lord of the Rings, but Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces. Still...) I don't know if Österling was thinking along this line at all, but the perspective on Tolkien's work might not be lightly dismissed. |
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01-11-2012, 07:59 AM | #21 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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If that was the case though, for a man in such a lofty, dignified position to judge a work of art with such a thin-skinned, easily slighted cant merely confirms his opinion is worthless.
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01-18-2012, 11:43 AM | #22 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I suppose it would bear testimony to something called intellectual snobbery, according to which all modern fantasy is childish, inane and just plain irrelevant.
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01-18-2012, 11:51 AM | #23 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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[QUOTE]Don't forget Jorge Luis Borges
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01-21-2012, 03:05 PM | #24 |
Spectre of Decay
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Can't they find something else to write about?
Apart from spending the money on fancy waistcoats and a barrel of Theakston's, I can't see what use JRRT would have had for a Nobel prize. He was always a little suspicious of the waft of incense from fans and sympathetic critics, as we can see from his disapproval on hearing W.H. Auden's comment that he never again trusted the literary judgement of someone who didn't like LR. I doubt he'd have appreciated being dismissed on the basis of a translation, particularly one that he disliked himself, but Tolkien was always opposed to the use of translations and synopses in literary criticism. Since the Beowulf poet had been the victim of the same sort of unconsidered dismissal (not to mention also being too old to win a Nobel prize), JRRT might even have felt that he was in good company. When it came to his own work he was more often amused by the battle between his supporters and detractors than particularly concerned with the opinions of either.
Perhaps a more enduring comment on Tolkien's importance is that even as we approach the fortieth anniversary of his death and the fiftieth of Lewis', their two names are sufficient to make a lot of dusty old committee minutes into newsworthy material. Personally I've found that the difference between 'good' and 'bad' literature seems to reside more in the opinion of the critic than any objective point of reference. Most criticism is merely an attempt to disguise this behind a smokescreen of academic braggadocio, and awards simply reflect the state of play: they indicate who's currently ahead in an endless and meaningless argument, occasionally managing at the same time to reward literary talent. The only things less relevant than this year's awards are those of years past.
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