If you HAD to be an Elf...

[Erurin]

If you HAD to be an Elf, what kind would you be?
Okay, I know that many people would not count it as "HAD to," but the Elves have it tough in Arda (Middle-earth).
Would you be:
A High Elf from Rivendell?
A Wood Elf from Mirkwood?
A Galadhrim from Lorien?
A Noldorin Exile?
A Moriquendi (Elf who never saw the Light of the Two Trees in Valinor {"mor-"= dark; "quendi" from "quenya"=to speak/ an Elf})?
One of the Peredhil (Half-Elves who have to choose the Fate of Men or the Doom of the Eldar)?
And where would you live?

[Erurin]

I would, myself, be a Noldorin Exile. It would be a pain, but these Elves are the most heroic of the Houses (in my opinion). They were the most skilled in weaponcraft, craftsmanship in general, and in battle their magic seems to be the most potent after the Teleri Elves.
However, I would not bind myself to the Oath of Feanor; I would follow King Turgon, who had the favor of Ulmo. I would be one of the Gondolindrim and seek after good and not gain, unlike the cursed House of Feanor. After the Fall of Gondolin, I would follow Tuor son of Huor. If I survive the First Age and do not return to Valinor, I would live in Lothlorien and be one of the Elvish Watchmen.

[Mithalwen]

Hi and welcome to the Downs.

I wouldn't be any of those. I'd choose the Teleri because I love the sea (but not sailing) and singing and my hair started turning silver when I was seventeen...and silver hair is practically a status symbol with the Teleri. I think Mithlond would be a good place to live and the elves there seem to have more of a purpose - even if it is just to facilitate the departure of those seeking the straight road.

Just for future reference - I don't want to put a damper on your first efforts but this sort of thread really belongs in Novices and Newcomers because it is a personal preference thing rather than something that involves discussion of topics that need to be supported by reference to the texts. Don't worry you will soon get a feel for the place.

[Erurin]

Okay, Mithalwen. Sorry for the mix-up.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Erurin

Okay, Mithalwen. Sorry for the mix-up.

Oh you don't have to apologise to me and one of the mods will probably move it in due course! Please don't be discouraged - it is great to have new people around and lighter threads are as welcome as the very serious ones. It isn't perhaps clear from the section titles.

[Galadriel55]

As appealing as Teleri life is, I'd prefer to be an sinda of Doriath, and after that - of Lorien.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Teleri sounds nice, because of the sea, but Wood-Elf sounds equally good. Perhaps Rivendell would be the best, then: if only for one little trouble, and that is again the Sea. Well, as somebody wise had once said:

Originally Posted by RotK

"There's something of everything here, if you understand me: the Shire and the Golden Wood and Gondor and kings' houses and inns and meadows and mountains all mixed..."
"Yes, something of everything, Sam, except the Sea..."

But maybe I could also choose the life of an elf from Edhellond, the Elf-haven near later Dol Amroth, when it still was there... (well, the point is, such an Elf most likely wouldn't be from Edhellond, but only in Edhellond, and probably being one of the Elves from Lórien or Mirkwood originally, or something like that.)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Erurin

One of the Peredhil (Half-Elves who have to choose the Fate of Men or the Doom of the Eldar)?

But if you are a peredhel, you can also choose to be mortal (more on this here). Or do you have to choose Elves' fate?

[blantyr]

I think I'll go with the background I gave Goldie. She was born in the Tower Hills. I see her living a hunter gather existence during the fair months, settling into small cities near the sea in winter. As she grew older, her travels would get wider. She'd spend some time with the wandering companies in the Wild, and perhaps occasionally winter in Rivendell.

The elves seem to be both close to nature and sophisticated artists. They can live off the land, yet surround themselves with well crafted art that is also useful and practical. I see her chasing sheep in the mountains in the spring, to help remove their fleece, in the valley of strawberries in summer, climbing trees to shake down acorns in the fall, then curling up in a corner of Rivendell's Hall of Fire in the winter.

In my mind, I'd see it as a sequence of festivals, with the migrant hunter-gatherers moving from place to place to suit the seasons. Especially in youth, she'd be expected to learn how to survive and gather food in various places and seasons. At the same time, there would be some art which she would be learning as well. Goldie's art is song, but a weaver of cloth, shipwright or cook could each in their own way dedicate their lives to creating a beauty shared by the community.

I also see more magic in Tolkien than some. A singer traveling the Wild singing songs to Elbereth would be cleansing the land of the Shadow. I saw this as a function of the wandering companies.

This might not be canon, but I wanted a character who could both sing and handle herself well in the wild. Given she was born in a time where the Shadow was weak west of the mountains, it seemed plausible. I thought those living a long life would seek variety. I saw no mention of elves farming or herding, thus thought to work from a hunter gatherer lifestyle. Thus, I created a life of traveling from one party to another, doing what is necessary, beautiful and fun.

[narfforc]

I'd be someone like Eol, just to keep away from all those boring tree-huggers..

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I'd be someone like Eol, just to keep away from all those boring tree-huggers..

You've got it all wrong. You sing to the trees, or perhaps to Yavanna. You hug an elf of the opposite gender.

No wonder you found it boring!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I'd be someone like Eol, just to keep away from all those boring tree-huggers..

What?! You've found the Entwives? You know where they are?

Originally Posted by blantyr

I think I'll go with the background I gave Goldie.

RPing your ideal?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I saw no mention of elves farming or herding, thus thought to work from a hunter gatherer lifestyle.

I suppose lembas grow on trees, yes?

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

RPing your ideal?

To some degree, yes, exactly. On the other hand, the end of the Third Age isn't time to sit on one's long golden hair and let the Shadow grow unchecked. Poor Goldie missed the last Strawberry harvest gathering.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I suppose lembas grow on trees, yes?

Is there a recipe given somewhere? I kind of assumed they use acorn flour.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Is there a recipe given somewhere? I kind of assumed they use acorn flour.

There is no mention of a recipe, but other things point at farming in Elvish settlements. Elrond had all kinds of food at his feast. Where did he get it from? I doubt that anyone shipped it up Greyflood.

I mentioned it in this thread, around post #40...

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

There is no mention of a recipe, but other things point at farming in Elvish settlements. Elrond had all kinds of food at his feast. Where did he get it from? I doubt that anyone shipped it up Greyflood.

I mentioned it in this thread, around post #40...

I recall Elrond's feast as being ample, varied an excellent, but was there mention of food that couldn't be harvested from the wild?

To this point in the mundane world, there might be three basic styles of human civilization: hunter gatherer, agricultural empire and industrialized democracy (ignoring for the moment various failed autocratic industrialized societies such as the fascists and communists).

Variations on these themes can be found in Middle Earth. Tolkien idealized agricultural civilization. The Shire and Pelennor Fields represent an idealized agrarian society where life was pleasant and the governments far less oppressive than the real world historical record would suggest.

The Elves, and wild men (Woses and Lossoth) seem closer to a hunter gatherer pattern. The nuts and bolts of these cultures and economies aren't thoroughly explored. I'm assuming the wild men are close to the eskimo and pre farming real world patterns. Yet, that isn't Tolkien's strength or focus. He was out to create myth rather than doing hard science fiction exploration of how the cultures and economics of his varied cultures worked. At any rate, ignoring the unspecified, Tolkien romanticized the Agricultural Age quite a bit, and the Hunter Gatherers hardly less.

He was less thrilled with the Industrial Age. He portrayed societies that embraced machinery and fire as vile. I can hardly blame him. There were many social ills in the industrialized culture of his youth. I look at our current problems with the depletion of oil and global warming and am inclined to agree with Treebeard. Ha room rah! Let us tear down some walls, and flood some basements.

But if Tolkien wasn't into the nuts and bolts of detailed economic systems, what can a role player who wants to spend time in his world do if he wants to know his character's background so one can fill in her skills and motivations?

The local tradition in playing elves is to center their culture on nature and beauty as opposed to humans that might be centered on economics and justice. In one game world, an elf would study esthetics rather than law. One does the beautiful thing rather than enforce the law.

I won't say that every single elf ought to be running through the woods gathering acorns and shooting deer. Elven craftsmanship is superb. I can easily see, if someone has a love of a given craft, developing and practicing that craft to the exclusion of much else. I do see Goldie's past as being relatively normal for a youngster. She spent a good deal of time wandering the woods hunting and gathering, while still practicing her art. She brings her lute with her into the woods, though she would have better opportunities to learn music in the winter months when she settles into the Grey Havens or Rivendell. I also see an elven shipwright, cook, house builder or clothing maker being considered no less an artist than the singer or dancer. An elven artisan is more likely to be striving for beauty than for profit. They have the time and the culture to push them to create the extraordinary.

I also see many of these creations as being in some sense 'magical.' The cloak might make one hard to see, the trail bread will be flavorful, nutritious an keep indefinitely. The boat will be easy to navigate even in dire waters. The song might indeed cause flowers to bloom and birds to sing, or it might call the protection of Elbereth down upon the land. Still, it will be subtle. A skeptic who doesn't believe in magic, or isn't trained to recognize it when he sees it, will have no difficulty convincing himself that nothing magical is taking place.

Sorry to be rambling. Anyway, all of this makes me lean away from elves doing a great deal of farming or herding. Humans and Hobbits, sure, each plot of land is managed to maximize the production of one particular plant or animal. Elves might be more likely to harvest from nature. I can't prove it. I won't insist that everyone's conception of elven kind ought to echo mine. I won't say that there aren't crafts people that also tend gardens. Still, the above covers how I perceive Goldie's background. I'm a role player, rather than a Tolkien academic, so I might look at things a bit differently. I'm out to create a character who comes from a different background, who sees things from a different perspective, who might make a few unusual decisions.

[Galadriel55]

Well as you said, Elves did not spend most of their time and effort farming, but I think that some of it *at least* was done. There's only that much food you can get from the forest.

Maybe they didn't necessarily have farms as we know them, but rather gardens, with maybe some vegetabes here and there...

And you're absolutely right about them making the most out of a small amount of food. But none the less I imagine Elrond's feast to be lavish. However, it hapened just after harvest time, so he probably has lots of food in his stores.

Plus, Elrond had to suply 4 extra hobbits with food for, what was it? - a month? That is A LOT of food! (well, they're starved hobbits. What else would you expect of them? )

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Plus, Elrond had to suply 4 extra hobbits with food for, what was it? - a month? That is A LOT of food! (well, they're starved hobbits. What else would you expect of them? )

You also have to remember that Elrond and Gandalf were both present, each wearing one of The Three. This makes it plausible that they could feed four extra hobbits.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by blantyr

You also have to remember that Elrond and Gandalf were both present, each wearing one of The Three. This makes it plausible that they could feed four extra hobbits.

Mmn, well, there's the rub, isn't it? It seems to me this concept only really works if you're prepared to use "it's magic" as an all-purpose hand-wave.

Now, I agree Tolkien himself clearly wasn't a bit interested in Elven economics, food-production, etc. That was never the point. However when attempting to fill in the gaps, as one often is in a fan-fiction or role-playing setting, my own feeling is that it's usually better to err somewhat on the side of practicality and plausibility. Still more so when you're taking part in a general discussion.

I say "usually", mind– I certainly wouldn't want to go to the other extreme of ignoring the fantasy aspect completely, and insisting on a level and detail of realism that would be out of place in an historical novel– which I've seen people do.

So, maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective, but I must say I personally have great trouble seeing, say, Rivendell as a society sustained purely on hunting and gathering. It seems so different from any real-world equivalent that frankly it never even occurred to me that it was meant to work that way.

[Anguirel]

ahem, as far as the general question goes, er, ah...

Be he friend or foe, whether Balrog of Morgoth, or Elf, or child of Men, or anything living or dead of Arda, neither might of the Valar nor any power of wizardry shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Feanor's sons, if he should take a Silmaril and keep it!

[Nerwen]

Ang, are you acquainted with Urwen at all?

Just wondered.

[Anguirel]

Not as far as I know, at least not in real life! Why? Do you trace a kinship in the mild tendency we both have to being a little bit partisan...?

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mmn, well, there's the rub, isn't it? It seems to me this concept only really works if you're prepared to use "it's magic" as an all-purpose hand-wave.

Now, I agree Tolkien himself clearly wasn't a bit interested in Elven economics, food-production, etc. That was never the point. However when attempting to fill in the gaps, as one often is in a fan-fiction or role-playing setting, my own feeling is that it's usually better to err somewhat on the side of practicality and plausibility. Still more so when you're taking part in a general discussion.

I say "usually", mind– I certainly wouldn't want to go to the other extreme of ignoring the fantasy aspect completely, and insisting on a level and detail of realism that would be out of place in an historical novel– which I've seen people do.

So, maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective, but I must say I personally have great trouble seeing, say, Rivendell as a society sustained purely on hunting and gathering. It seems so different from any real-world equivalent that frankly it never even occurred to me that it was meant to work that way.

I don't see Tolkien's elven culture as so well defined that one person's interpretation should be held to over ride another's. I have problems seeing elves harnessing their horses for a plow, putting up fences, or killing for meat an animal that they have known. I'm not one to tell other players how to run their character, but Goldie is a hunter gatherer.

Whether a hunter gatherer society can be maintained would be a question of population density. How many elves per square mile? How big is the biggest 'city'? Is Rivendell an oversized inn, or a city? For a hunter gatherer pattern to work, I'd expect widely spread villages or mansions, and perhaps migratory patterns as small groups move from one harvest point to another, perhaps with stops in between at their winter quarters to stow things away.

I am also more ready than most to accept the magic. The gap between elven craftsmanship and other race's might be benchmarked by the difference between cram and lembas. This difference is in part the Art. There is an place in elven culture for the creation and manifestation of beauty. Hobbits might improve their crop yield using plows and manure. The elves might sing to Yavanna. I'm ready to think that the Elven technique might be superior. The strength of the magic of Middle Earth should not be measured only through the frequency, size and heat level of the fireballs. Elven magic might not be suitable for dominion and conquest, but that doesn't mean it isn't present and powerful.

Still, my interpretation seems uncommon here. I'm involved in an off line table top Middle Earth game played with reasonably hard firmly defined magic rules. There, my objective is to use the magic rules without anyone else much noticing. The magic is supposed to be subtle to invisible. Sure, the elf is singing, but she's always singing.

In the Barrow Downs game forum, I'm kind of leaning the same way. In my head there might be a little magic going on, but not so anyone would notice. The Barrow Downs version of Goldie is also too young to be doing a heck of a lot with magic.

Still, she looks at the world through a hunter gather's eyes. She is part of nature, a wander, who does not fence in a plot of land to subjugate it to her will. She understands that such is the way of halfling and human. She isn't going to condemn them for following their nature. Still, to her eye, there would be more beauty in a woods than a farm.

This isn't to say that every elf should be played that way. I can also see an argument that there are elven cities, centers of population that are too large for its inhabitants to reasonably go out and catch supper every night. Such places require some sort of food infrastructure. Gardens might easily be a part of it.

[Folwren]

I think I would like to be a woodelf from Mirkwood. I don't know much about elves, and for me, it would be a 'HAVE to', as they're not my favorite race from ME.

I rather like the style of living the Mirkwood elves seem to have described in The Hobbit. Sounds like it is fairly fun, but also somewhat serious, an just near enough to danger not to be boring.

-- Folwren

[Galadriel]

Probably a Noldorin exile It might attract some trouble, but I like a little drama Not to mention that without the Noldor the history of ME would not have been half as interesting

[Gaurcrist]

Probably a Wood Elf from Mirkwood. Mostly because I love the forest - so full of life - and also because I enjoy the sense of peacefulness it contains (although there was also a sense of danger, as Folwren said).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This thread poses an interesting opinion question that can be answered by all members, whether well-versed in the lore of the more obscure books or not. Therefore it fits well on the Newcomers and Novices forum section. I'm moving it there: please continue to enjoy reading and posting at the new location - thanks!

[oddkins]

I'd be more than happy! I'd choose to be a High Elf from Rivendell. What better place to live for someone who loves lore and the arts, feasting and song? (Not to mention that gorgeous art-nouveau set-design in the movies )

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Gaurcrist

Probably a Wood Elf from Mirkwood. Mostly because I love the forest - so full of life

*Cough* Spiders "Cough*

[Archaic Elf]

Well I am an Archaic Elf so I guess I would have been a Vanyar or Teleri that crossed over to Valinor and was around to see the light of the Two Trees. I'm not really one for building things like the Noldor, and I don't think I would have rushed to join them in their vengeance against Morgoth. On the downside, I would have missed out on the epic battles of the Noldor in Middle Earth, but then again, I wouldn't have seen the destruction of my home and deaths of my friends in those wars.

I guess I would be fine as a Teleri. Just sail back and forth between Middle Earth and Valinor and you will get the best of both worlds. Not to mention they are good musicians, which I try to be (guitar).


On a side note, I didn't read the discussion about Rivendell lifestyles too closely, but a lot of people find taking care of a garden relaxing. It's safe to say that some elves would feel the same. Farming in or around Rivendell isn't out of the question at all.