Can anything good come from Men?

[Selador]

I agree with littlemanpoet. The Elves too fall. I think to Tolkien's mind, every story entailed some kind of fall. In the First Age, Fëanor's possessiveness precipitates the fall of the Noldor. They fall from peace and contentment (which is their nature) to belligerence and woe. The Elves fall again after the defeat of Melkor, for they now find that they are not perfectly content to have kingdoms in a corrupted, always decaying Middle-earth. They fall to the temptation to make the Rings of Power in an attempt to make Middle-earth more like Aman. But this is against the will of Eru.

Notice, however, that in both cases, the fall of the Elves is due to the influence of Melkor. It was Melkor who stole the Silmarilli, and it was Melkor who corrupted the fabric of Middle-earth and introduced decay. So Melkor is responsible not only for the fall of Men, but also for the fall of the Elves, just in different ways. And these falls both proceed from Melkor's own fall - his rebellion against Eru's supreme authority.

With the Elves he corrupts their ability to find peace and contentment in Arda. With Men, he corrupts their ability to find peace and contentment beyond Arda (which is their nature, as the "visitors").

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

What about the Drúedain? They don't show evidence of contact with the Eldar, and yet they also don't seem to show any inclination towards evil.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, the Elves fell- or rather, many individual Elves fell. The Noldorin Exiles as a group fell. But that's not the same thing as the Fall of the entire race of Man, predisposed to evil from birth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What about the Drúedain? They don't show evidence of contact with the Eldar

Ah, but they do. Says so right on the label: Dru-edain. The Eldar considerd them to be Atani, as many of them constituted an ethnically distinct population among the Folk of Haleth.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, the Elves fell- or rather, many individual Elves fell. The Noldorin Exiles as a group fell. But that's not the same thing as the Fall of the entire race of Man, predisposed to evil from birth.

Hm... I would say the correct formulation would be weak towards evil from start. The fea of Men comes ultimately from Eru, which is good; their essence is good; their predisposition and destiny is from start towards Eru, they are an integral and positive part of his plan for creation. However, they come in contact with something that, by design, they have little defenses against, which is the marring of Arda by Melkor. I am not very impressed by this, since Tolkien said in Myths Transformed that every finite being has an inherent weakness, one way or the other - and that was in direct reference to Manwe no less. If we look at the scale of things, the valar (and elves to a lesser extent) simply have a much higher magnitude of fea, compared to Men, and so their ability to fight inherent corruption is much greater.

[Selador]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, the Elves fell- or rather, many individual Elves fell. The Noldorin Exiles as a group fell. But that's not the same thing as the Fall of the entire race of Man, predisposed to evil from birth.

I have to disagree. I don't see any fundamental difference. Many individual men fell, but many others did not. There were certainly good men, and so I don't think that one can say that the entire race of Men fell. They were universally susceptible to fall, yes. But Elves were also universally susceptible to fall. Otherwise, no individual Elves could have fallen.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Selador

I have to disagree. I don't see any fundamental difference. Many individual men fell, but many others did not. There were certainly good men, and so I don't think that one can say that the entire race of Men fell. They were universally susceptible to fall, yes. But Elves were also universally susceptible to fall. Otherwise, no individual Elves could have fallen.

I think the point being made is that Men were more susceptible to the Fall than elves, not that either race was all one or the other.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Selador

I have to disagree. I don't see any fundamental difference. Many individual men fell, but many others did not. There were certainly good men, and so I don't think that one can say that the entire race of Men fell. They were universally susceptible to fall, yes. But Elves were also universally susceptible to fall. Otherwise, no individual Elves could have fallen.

I think there is a difference of kind, if not degree. The Music of the Ainur might give the sense of it better than I could. There is a strength and a sadness in the third theme. The elves might be better able to maintain an idealized memory of the purity of the beginning, while mankind has its own strengths and its own flaws. Certainly, each race messed it up big time in turn, but the sense I have at the end of LotR is that the Elves would withdraw but that human kind would continue to grow, thrive and fulfill the intent of the Music.

[Findegil]

What we hear about the fall of Men, is scanty evidence to rule on that basis. But at least for the three kindered of the western Men, that in Beleriand became the Houses of Beor, Hador and Haleth and for all the kindered of the Easterlings and Southerners that we see in three ages of Middle-earth, it is clear that their ancestors had been part of that fall of Men in the very begining of the history of menkind. That means they took Melkor to be their creator, identyfied Erus voice with the voide and refused to listen. They hunted down and killed in cruel ways others that repented from that blasphemy, before (in part) they themself repented and became hunted.
Not so sure we might be about Hobbits and Drûg. But at least I can argue that non of these seems to hear the voice any longer, so that most proberbly, their early ancestors had also part in that fall of men.

Now for the Elves things were very diffrent: As a group only one part of one of the branches fell (the Exiled Noldor by leaving Aman and not seek forgiveness for the kinslaying at Aqualonde). Also the sins comitted by the Noldor seem to be less heavy: They never dinied the existence of Eru nor tried to kill every body of their own kind that was not of the same oppion.

But I wouldn't say that it took "an effort of will for Men to be good", or that by the fall men were "predisposed to evil from birth". Even so I agree that the Original Sin had left its mark on men. I would rather say that, men were "particularly susceptible to the temptations of evil". Which is diffrent think, since it needs the temptation and the tempter. (Mark also that I used past tense here. Since Tolkien was a devoted Christian, the healing of Mens Original Sin came with the passion of Christ which for him was part of the future of Middle-Earth, and part of our past.)

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Also the sins comitted by the Noldor seem to be less heavy: They never dinied the existence of Eru nor tried to kill every body of their own kind that was not of the same oppion.

The elves were also more sheltered and taught by the Valar (at least the groups that made the journey).

That in itself may be a big part of my original question...foundationally it wasn't so much elvishness that was sought as the light from the teachings of the Valar.

Another point to be considered is that if orcs did come from elves then perhaps elves are capable of even greater falls than humanity.

(Yes, I know, Tolkien moved away from the idea...let me have my fun. )