Ivory in Gondolin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alfirin · 03-06-2011, 08:24 PM

I'm not sure if this can really be aswered by here is my question

In a footnote to the UT version of "Tuor and his coming to Gondolin" The sword of Gondolins king (this is presumaby Glamdring) has a sheath of "ruel bone" which is translated as "ivory". Here is my question, what sources of Ivory would Gondolin have? Thinking it over I have come up with three possibilites

1. Elephant or rather, Mumakul, ivory. This would presumably assume some sort of trade between Gondolin (or wherever the sheath was made) and the South (unless Mumakul are actually part of Gondolinian fauna in the First age)

2. Narwhal ivory. This would also invove some degree of trade, this time with the Lossoth/Snowmen of Forochel which is suppose is not impossible (Cirdan was able to send a ship to the area to pick up Barahir a few millenia later, so some elves presumbaly did know their way around the area. I actually like this option best as it seems the most logical if the sheath is one piece of ivory; if one assumes Glamdrig is a straight sword i'm not sure that you could make a one peice sheath out of an elephan tusk (though I would imagine a Mumakul tusk is far more massive than that of any current elephant and there are ways I understand to change the shape of ivory by boiling it in vinegar (the did it, as I recall to make the skin on the Statue of Zeus at Olympia) This ,ight be considered wasteful in our world (where a narwhal tsuks was valued as being the horn of a unicorn) but since it is not clear that unicorns are known in middle earth, narwhal tusk may not inspire the same reverance in ME

3. Boar ivory. This really wouldn't work for a one piece sheath, as few boars have tusks large enough to make such a straight scabbard (short of the Boar of Everholt maybe) but if the scabbard is made of many pieces (it is said to have gold on it, but wether this gold is ornamental or actual ligatures is not clear) boar could be an option.

your opinion?

Morthoron · 03-07-2011, 12:56 PM

Trade with Gondolin would be impossible (that whole "secret city" thing). The ivory might be from a whale, and Turgon could have brought it from the sea before he left for Gondolin.

Galadriel55 · 03-07-2011, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Trade with Gondolin would be impossible (that whole "secret city" thing). The ivory might be from a whale, and Turgon could have brought it from the sea before he left for Gondolin.

Very possible. He had lots of time in Nevrast to get the right whale.

skip spence · 03-07-2011, 02:31 PM

Isn't the most likely source of ivory in Gondolin Valinor across the Sea?. There the fauna, I believe, was said to include every known species of ME and then some. Turgon probably brought his sword (and sheath) with him when going into exile. The Noldor certainly arrived at ME armed and ready to tussle...

Alfirin · 03-07-2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

Isn't the most likely source of ivory in Gondolin Valinor across the Sea?. There the fauna, I believe, was said to include every known species of ME and then some. Turgon probably brought his sword (and sheath) with him when going into exile. The Noldor certainly arrived at ME armed and ready to tussle...

Good point.
Actually with that theory there are some other, rather odd options. Part of it sort of depends on whether it is actually possible to kill animals in the Undying Lands (we keep being told that bilbo, frodo et al mortalis do eventually die, but we are talking here about animals born in the undying lands; whether they are mortal or not is a little murky (at least to me) since it is hard to imagine the elves doing something so cruel as pulling teeth out of living animals, perhaps the "ivory" in this case is vegetable ivory i.e. the kernel of some sort of palm. This would probably not be even close to anything Tolkein would imagine (I'm not 100% sure vegetable ivory was even well known in the west in Tolkein's day. but if native animals are immortal in Valinor (and again I say, I do not know) then it would seem to be the only option (if Valinor containes all the fauna of ME+ is presumably also contaions all the flora+.)

Galin · 03-08-2011, 06:21 AM

Concerning beasts: there does seem to be hunting going on in Aman anyway.

And there is a text 'Aman' in Morgoth's Ring that implies to me that however long-lived, beasts in Aman still die. If so, how does this particular statement or idea 'fit' with other, perhaps more general descriptions of life in Aman? I haven't done the work there yet, but 'Aman' looks to be in the late 1950s phase (or thereabouts), and connected to The Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth.

If only this text is considered for now (some MR citations gleaned from the net):

'But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass...'

That one seems a little confusing, and this next one...

'But since Aman was made for the Valar, that they might have peace and delight therein, all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purpose of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of life natural to their kinds on Earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.'

... might refer to growth only, but...

'For the Eldar this was a source of joy. For in Aman the world appeared to them as it does to Men on Earth, but without the shadow of death soon to come. Whereas on Earth to them all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to change and die or pass away, in Aman they endured and did not so soon cheat love with their mortality.'

... this one seems to note that they would ultimately die in any case (if beasts are still being considered in 'all things' I guess).

Galadriel55 · 03-23-2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

...since it is hard to imagine the elves doing something so cruel as pulling teeth out of living animals, perhaps the "ivory" in this case is vegetable ivory i.e. the kernel of some sort of palm. This would probably not be even close to anything Tolkein would imagine (I'm not 100% sure vegetable ivory was even well known in the west in Tolkein's day. but if native animals are immortal in Valinor (and again I say, I do not know) then it would seem to be the only option (if Valinor containes all the fauna of ME+ is presumably also contaions all the flora+.)

I'm not sure about the flora. Haldir, later echoed by Galadriel (or ws it Celeborn?) speak as if they doubt that mallorns grow in Aman. Haldir is understandable, but Galadriel should know for sure, since she grew up there.

Alfirin · 04-06-2011, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'm not sure about the flora. Haldir, later echoed by Galadriel (or ws it Celeborn?) speak as if they doubt that mallorns grow in Aman. Haldir is understandable, but Galadriel should know for sure, since she grew up there.

Well Frodo does describe Sam's Mallorn (unless I am confused and quoting a line that only appears in the Radio version, not the books) as the only one "West of the mountains or east of the sea (italics mine). which would suggest Mallorns in Valinor or somewhere else in the West. Granted Frodo's knowledge of this is probably inferior to Galadriels (who as you pointed out, would have had some degree of fisthand knowledge (though even she presumably has never seen every single inch of Valinor). But maybe Frodo was privy to some information, maybe Gandalf told him (with his mission fully fulfilled, Gandalf may have no longer been required to hide his origin so scrupulously, admitting to Frodo that he too had seen the Undying Lands might have been OK with Eru.)

Inziladun · 04-06-2011, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Well Frodo does describe Sam's Mallorn (unless I am confused and quoting a line that only appears in the Radio version, not the books) as the only one "West of the mountains or east of the sea (italics mine). which would suggest Mallorns in Valinor or somewhere else in the West. Granted Frodo's knowledge of this is probably inferior to Galadriels (who as you pointed out, would have had some degree of fisthand knowledge (though even she presumably has never seen every single inch of Valinor). But maybe Frodo was privy to some information, maybe Gandalf told him (with his mission fully fulfilled, Gandalf may have no longer been required to hide his origin so scrupulously, admitting to Frodo that he too had seen the Undying Lands might have been OK with Eru.)

According to the UT chapter "A Description of Númenor", mallorns were found in Eressëa, at least. Some seedlings were given to the Númenóreans, who later passed some on to Gil-Galad, who in turn gave them to Galadriel.

Galin · 04-06-2011, 07:39 AM

Yes it was said that there were mallorn trees in Eressea (and Numenor), although if I recall correctly not specifically mentioned in Eldamar or Aman in general.

'... grew the mighty golden tree malinorne reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressea itself. Its fruit was a nut with a silver shale; and some were given as gift by Tar-Aldarion, the sixth King of Númenor, to King Gil-galad of Lindon. They did not take root in that land; but Gil-galad gave some to his kinswoman Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flourished in the guarded land of Lothlórien beside the River Anduin...'

JRRT, Description of Numenor, Unfinished Tales

crossed with Inziladun!

03-06-2011, 08:24 PM	#1
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Ivory in Gondolin I'm not sure if this can really be aswered by here is my question In a footnote to the UT version of "Tuor and his coming to Gondolin" The sword of Gondolins king (this is presumaby Glamdring) has a sheath of "ruel bone" which is translated as "ivory". Here is my question, what sources of Ivory would Gondolin have? Thinking it over I have come up with three possibilites 1. Elephant or rather, Mumakul, ivory. This would presumably assume some sort of trade between Gondolin (or wherever the sheath was made) and the South (unless Mumakul are actually part of Gondolinian fauna in the First age) 2. Narwhal ivory. This would also invove some degree of trade, this time with the Lossoth/Snowmen of Forochel which is suppose is not impossible (Cirdan was able to send a ship to the area to pick up Barahir a few millenia later, so some elves presumbaly did know their way around the area. I actually like this option best as it seems the most logical if the sheath is one piece of ivory; if one assumes Glamdrig is a straight sword i'm not sure that you could make a one peice sheath out of an elephan tusk (though I would imagine a Mumakul tusk is far more massive than that of any current elephant and there are ways I understand to change the shape of ivory by boiling it in vinegar (the did it, as I recall to make the skin on the Statue of Zeus at Olympia) This ,ight be considered wasteful in our world (where a narwhal tsuks was valued as being the horn of a unicorn) but since it is not clear that unicorns are known in middle earth, narwhal tusk may not inspire the same reverance in ME 3. Boar ivory. This really wouldn't work for a one piece sheath, as few boars have tusks large enough to make such a straight scabbard (short of the Boar of Everholt maybe) but if the scabbard is made of many pieces (it is said to have gold on it, but wether this gold is ornamental or actual ligatures is not clear) boar could be an option. your opinion?

03-07-2011, 12:56 PM	#2
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,509	Trade with Gondolin would be impossible (that whole "secret city" thing). The ivory might be from a whale, and Turgon could have brought it from the sea before he left for Gondolin. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

03-07-2011, 02:31 PM	#4
skip spence shadow of a doubt Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the streets Posts: 1,125	Isn't the most likely source of ivory in Gondolin Valinor across the Sea?. There the fauna, I believe, was said to include every known species of ME and then some. Turgon probably brought his sword (and sheath) with him when going into exile. The Noldor certainly arrived at ME armed and ready to tussle... __________________ "You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 03-07-2011 at 02:38 PM.

03-08-2011, 06:21 AM	#6
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,034	Concerning beasts: there does seem to be hunting going on in Aman anyway. And there is a text 'Aman' in Morgoth's Ring that implies to me that however long-lived, beasts in Aman still die. If so, how does this particular statement or idea 'fit' with other, perhaps more general descriptions of life in Aman? I haven't done the work there yet, but 'Aman' looks to be in the late 1950s phase (or thereabouts), and connected to The Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. If only this text is considered for now (some MR citations gleaned from the net): 'But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass...' That one seems a little confusing, and this next one... 'But since Aman was made for the Valar, that they might have peace and delight therein, all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purpose of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of life natural to their kinds on Earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.' ... might refer to growth only, but... 'For the Eldar this was a source of joy. For in Aman the world appeared to them as it does to Men on Earth, but without the shadow of death soon to come. Whereas on Earth to them all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to change and die or pass away, in Aman they endured and did not so soon cheat love with their mortality.' ... this one seems to note that they would ultimately die in any case (if beasts are still being considered in 'all things' I guess). Last edited by Galin; 03-08-2011 at 08:15 AM.

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04-06-2011, 07:39 AM	#10
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,034	Yes it was said that there were mallorn trees in Eressea (and Numenor), although if I recall correctly not specifically mentioned in Eldamar or Aman in general. '... grew the mighty golden tree malinorne reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressea itself. Its fruit was a nut with a silver shale; and some were given as gift by Tar-Aldarion, the sixth King of Númenor, to King Gil-galad of Lindon. They did not take root in that land; but Gil-galad gave some to his kinswoman Galadriel, and under her power they grew and flourished in the guarded land of Lothlórien beside the River Anduin...' JRRT, Description of Numenor, Unfinished Tales crossed with Inziladun!