Ah, so maybe they did have wings...

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Deep in forgotten places that cry (Morgoth's as he was attacked by Ungoliant) was heard. Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

The distance between Angband, which doesn't even appear on the Silm's Beleriand map, and LLammoth where Morgoth and Ungoliant were was quite a substantial one. Unless the Balrog's running speed was truly incredible, they surely would not have made the journey in time to save their Lord from the spider's dark belly unless they flew.

That they 'passed over Hithlum' supports this. However, it may also be that they simply climbed over or found a pass through them, and that Morgoth was able to elude and defend against Ungoliant for the time it took them to get there. All the same, it sounds tantalisingly like they did fly there.

[piosenniel]

Here's an article from the Barrow Downs' own BW which deals with Balrogs and that particular passage:

Balrog article

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Saurreg]

I read the BW's article and it's filled with many quotations from the books. However all of his deductions are assumed. There is no substantial concrete evidence that

a) balrogs had wings and could fly
b) balrogs had wings but cannot fly (dodo?!!)
c) Balrogs had no wings but its fiery smoke resembled wings.

I'm more inclined to believe opinion A given the description of the Balrogs' flight to rescue Morgoth. However this is ultimately an open-ended question. No definite answers whatsoever.

[burrahobbit]

Flight to the ford.

[burrahobbit]

Fly you fools.

[burrahobbit]

See, what I'm doing here is instead of making really long arguments that go on and on forever and just cover stuff thats been gone over about a million times already I am pretending like I am making long posts, but instead what I am actually doing is condensing those those long pretend posts into really short actual posts, but there is the same amount of real meaning in them as I pretended to do for the long posts that I didn't make. It really makes a lot of sense if you think about it for a minute. Plus it is very late and I am incoherent!

[HerenIstarion]

If I may be so bold to add a commentary to burra's long posts - he meant it is merely an expression, and balrogs do not have wings (they do not indeed, actually)

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmmm, interesting theory burra; however I am regrettably of the inclination that it is really just a big load of tripe (which is itself a rather tasteless recipe, made from the inside of a sheep's stomach and bearing absoluetly no reference whatsoever to Balrogs).

Maybe some did and some didn't? Maybe these Balrogs, being younger than the one in Moria, still had the power to change shape and could sprout wings? Maybe they were magically borne over Hithlum by he power of fire or something? *shrugs* This matter is probably indeed the most open-ended of all matters. But I just thought I'd bring that quote into the light.

[Maikadilwen]

Do dragons have wings?
Some do and some don't! Why can't that be the case with the balrogs?

[Manwe Sulimo]

Boy, I rememeber the first time I was on the Downs there were about 4 Balrog threads going on, at least two of which had that piece of "evidence". It did the pro-wing people no good then; it probably won't now. Although I do agree that no one could've run the almost two hundred leagues from Angband to Lammoth fast enough, unless Melkor and Ungoliant pulled a Gandalf and spent a few days killing each other.

[obloquy]

Even more supportive of your argument is the original text from which that passage in the '77 was adapted:

Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

The Later Quenta Silmarillion Part One, HoMe X

According to me, it's possible that the Balrogs were not yet incarnated at this time, which leaves a number of possible explanations.

See also this thread for more along burra's line of reasoning.

[Iarwain]

I think that the passage mentioned at the beginning of the thread has nothing to do with flying. (edit: Of course obloquy just prooved me wrong there) However, I'm sure there are hundreds of other points where Tolkien has said "they passed over" while refering only to running, or even walking. Perhaps it would take a long time for Balrogs to get to Lammoth from Angband, but then think of Gandalf's swift trip to and from Valinor after the Balrog. And oh, wait, there's also Melian who "Vanished out of Middle-Earth to the gardens of Lorien to ponder her sorrows" just in a snap, and she was gone to Valinor! And think of Oromë's long horserides on Nahar to and from and to and from Middle-Earth seemingly in just a snap.

We also must remember that in fact, the balrogs were once Maiar, but were corrupted by Melkor's foul discord*. I do not believe that anywhere, a full description of a Balrog's uniform appearance would be, so here is a partial description from the Sil Ch. 3 :

And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they werre named in Middle-Earth in later days.

Now to my next point. Balrogs were Maiar, and Maiar, like Valar, were Ainur. Thus, when the Valar take on visible form we hear this :

Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being.

Now, later on in that passage we see Melkor try to take on visible form, and his mood, rather than his wish forms his monstrous figure. So, then, since Valar and Maiar are both Ainur and merely varying in power, we know that Maiar can also take form and change at their will.

However, since Valaraukar (also Maiar) were "most like him in his corruption" and they could also take and leave their "raiment" at will, and change to different appearences, wouldn't the forms they took on be relative (like Morgoth's) to their mood/corruption? And so, if that is true, and we presume that Balrogs (being Ainur) were not mindless drones, can't we also say that a Balrog's individual mood would create for him an individual appearance, with or without wings?

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

*Curiously enough, I've viewed this post many times over the past three years, and have only just noticed that I wrote "Melkor's discordinance" discordinance is, of course, not a word. Happily I've finally realized as much.

Laughing to myself,
Iarwain

[Reginald Hill]

We know at least that the Moria Balrog had no wings because if it did why didn't it fly out of the pit below the bridge before it hit the water? As for the passage reffering to the long distance they traveled I believe that since the balrogs were not completely solid creatures they could easily be caught in the wind and sort of drift to the help of their master. I can not be entirely sure of this though because I hardly know the story of the original balrogs long before the War of the Ring.

[Nenya]

My God. I can't believe this topic is back.

[Ar-Gilien]

My honest guess, is that balrogs aka 'valaraukar', were those first Maiar whom Melkor/Morgoth first corrupted to his cause. His 'generals', if you will. Gothmog is the only mentioned name of a balrog that I can find, and he is called, 'Lord of Balrogs.' So maybe he was the very first maiar to fall to the lies of Melkor. Also, I don't think balrogs could truly fly. Wings they had, yes. Fly, no. Glide, perhaps. If they could truly fly, the balrog with whom Gandalf fought would or should have used its wings to save itself, right?

[Manwe Sulimo]

We know at least that the Moria Balrog had no wings because if it did why didn't it fly out of the pit below the bridge before it hit the water?

I think that a pretty good explanation why he couldn't use his wings is shown in the movie version of The Two Towers.

*Ducks as things are thrown at him*

[burrahobbit]

It's cool, Manwe, we mentioned that here like a long time ago. I'm going to go find it real quick.

[Arwen Imladris]

Ahhh! Not another Balrog wings thread! *runs off screaming*

[The Shadow In The East]

by fly you fools gandalf meant run.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Actually, what I'd like to know, what evidence evidence (conclusive or circumstantial) is there that Balrogs didn't have wings?

Man, I sound like a lawyer. We should turn this into a courtroom thing, with Estelyn as judge, some pro-wing and anti-wing people as the lawyers, and 12 newer members (who haven't heard the arguments before) as jurors....
I can see it now..."I'd like to call Gothmog to the witness standt.... Mr. Gothmog, do you or do you not have wings?"

"I plead the fifth."

Heh...remember, there was a question up there ----^ .... somewhere....

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

[Ithaeliel]

Well, think about it... if balrogs had wings, even if they were flightless, don't you think Tolkien, an author who usually goes into detail with explaining the common characteristics of a race, would have said so? Just a thought.

Y'know, if he hadn't put that shadow bit in there, this would not be a long argument at all...

[Bruce MacCulloch]

by fly you fools gandalf meant run.

Actually, that has nothing to do with it. Looking at the original Westron sources, it is readily apparent that Professor Tolkien mistranslated this line, perhaps his only (we hope) such mistranslation.
There are actually two words missing here. The quote should read 'I can't fly, you fools!' [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Bruce, you crack me up!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Iarwain]

I swear, this is the most shallow discussion I have ever wittnessed. About the first ten posts said everything so far (except Mr. MacCulloch's witty remark [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ), and other than that nothing of much importance has been said at all! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

What is the point of reviving an over discussed thread when no one has anything substantial to say!?! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lindil]

I actually like the courtroom idea, complete w/ 12 newbies.

Think how much it might mean to them 10 years from now, I can see it in their sig's... "I was one of the Balrog 12!"

Maybe only 7 jurors due to JRRT's note in HoME X.

Actually it would be fun and would produce as definitive a result as one could hope for.

It could happen in 3 phases:
1>Each side presents arguments - jurors read and are allowed questions.
2>Each side presents final arguments/rebuttals/closing point - jurors read and
3> Jurors write the reason for their decision, what swayed them etc...

Of course we could make it way... more involved but that should do it. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Manwe Sulimo]

Sweet! My idea gains support!

Thinking about it now, it does actually make some sense...(a first for me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). If it does, I'm a firm supporter of the pro-wing lawyers. Now, we need a judge. Estelyn? BW?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Ah, but Ithaeliel, even though Tolkien went to great lengths to describe the races, he really didn't describe much of any appearance except for hair, eyes and height in the Silm. I couldn't even think up a time he mentioned elf-ears as pointed (maybe when describing hobbit ears). The good man went to great lengths to describe dwarves, hobbits, Gandalf, and other main characters but not balrogs. If you ask me, I'd say count the evidence either way and whoever has the most points (for wings or anti) wins and the whole debate will probably still go on forever. Or at least till we talk to Tolkien in heaven or what not, and ask the man himself. If you ask me, I'd say Balrogs had wings, could beat a dragon easily and there were only seven of them. But whatever.

[HerenIstarion]

well, I hold as truth that there were 7 Balrogs and thousands of balrogs (making a distinction with capital B in first case) (as I argued in ages past, one's schoolmate may be called a balrog in case he/she is strong enough and malevolent up to a degree)

[Dimaldaeon]

Wait a minute guys I've found something
[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
I can't remember the exact quote but at the end of the SIl didn't Tolkien say when Morgoth released the winged dragons that this was his first assault upon the air, or something similar.

Looks like Balrogs couldn't fly afterall.
I still think they had wings, it even says this in FOTR

[Mister Underhill]

The difference between then and now.

Follow this link for some very in-depth arguments surrounding these exact issues, but only if you have a solid afternoon to burn and a strong cup of coffee at hand. Things get into really detailed textual analysis by page three.

To be fair, I think someone later started a thread refuting a few of the lines of discussion put forward by yours truly, but I never took a good look at it and can't find the link at the moment.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

I still think they had wings, it even says this in FOTR

Though nowhere in FOTR is said that they have wings. Shadows like wings - and the next time when Tolkien spoke of wings, he meant the shadows.

[Dark Shadow]

Though nowhere in FOTR is said that they have wings. Shadows like wings - and the next time when Tolkien spoke of wings, he meant the shadows.

I'm sure it said in FotR that the Balrog the fellowship encontered in Moria had wings. I just fetched my book, and it does compare the shadows to wings,

"the shadow about it reached out like two great wings"

but then it speaks of a more physical description of the beast itself,

"Suddenly it drew itself up to a great hight, adn it's wing were spread from wall to wall"

or something along those lines?? I don't know if that's right, but it seems to me that even if it couldn't fly, it certainly had wings.

[dragoneyes]

That's what this whole topic is about. Your first quote is a similie, so what it says is anyones guess, the second quote, well, that's what persuaded me that they had wings, but some people see it differently. I am trying very hard not to get muddled up and take sides, therefore I shall cease my noise.

[lindil]

If you ask me, I'd say Balrogs had wings, could beat a dragon easily and there were only seven of them. But whatever.

Beautiful and simple Keeper of DG!

Although I haveto remain on the fence re: dragon 'beating'. But I suppose they could not cooked by Dragons breath so easily being flames of Udun themselves.

I can't remember the exact quote but at the end of the SIl didn't Tolkien say when Morgoth released the winged dragons that this was his first assault upon the air, or something similar.

first off, most of the 7 Balrogs had been killed by that point or other wise accounted for [Rog's, Ecthelion's, Glorfindel's, one fled to Moria] Sow are talking about 3 left at most for the battle [ unless the Moria Balrog stuck it out for the whole battle which seems unlikely or he would have been 'neutralized']. So we are talking about 3 perhaps four in the final War of Wrath. That is probably an insignificant number to even organize the troops '...who had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it and all of the North was filled with War'.

Now before someone goes and quotes the other lines about saying that all of his Balrogs were destroyed and only a few were left to hide themselves in caves... I will [point out that as JRRT got older he revised the number of blarogs down and that CJRT forgot or decided not to refelct this in his Silmarillion. So all this boils down to, there were not enough balrogs left at that point to constitute a real threat to the Army of valinor compared to the 'assault from the Air' of the dragons.

The balrogs left [ 3 or 4] would have been insufficient to constitute an arial assault as I think there first and foremost job would be to govern the troops. There were simlpy not enough to act as arial shock troops in the way the dragons did.

I just read the relevant passages in the 77 Silm and there is no mention of an "first assault upon the air, or something similar.'

[Galorme]

I liked what someone said about this a while ago

Balrogs are Fallen Angels. They can do whatever the hell they want

Not entirly accurate but a good line after all. If they wanted to fly then they could have chosen to at the beggining, but after a while their form was fixed. So they could have chosed to have wings when they made their bodies. I suppose what you have to decide is at which point were they were Fixed, when they could no longer change their forms. Was this at some point during the age of stars or before? Or was it during or after the First Age?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Fallen angels, as in devils? Of course that is what they are. We could even envision Gothmog as being Beelzebub, or something along those lines (general of the dark lords force of devilish demons, right?). Well devils are often depicted as hooved, with tails, horns and wings. I guess they took this approach in the movie. But it's true, they could do whatever the hell they wanted. Maybe they were all different. Getting back to the initial point of the topic, they certainly 'flew' (figuratively) over Beleriand to get to Melkor's aid. Winged speed (as my English teacher so stubbornly points out) is used in Shakespeare, and in tales where not a single character has wings. Oh, and my view on a balrog wasting a dragon, not simple in the least. Like mentioned, dragon's fire (or poisonous fume) wouldn't phase a being that is made from the fires of hell, and though a man could never dream of penetrating a dragons scales with a blade, a Balrog was probably strong enough to bring it's sword down on their neck, shatter scales, and bite very deep into it. If dragons were the strongest, why weren't they in charge of Morgoth's armies?

[Kuruharan]

If dragons were the strongest, why weren't they in charge of Morgoth's armies?

They were in some cases. The Battle of Sudden Flame for instance where Glaurung was escorted by balrogs. Glaurung was also the leader of the army that destroyed Nargothrond.

[Somewhere out there I think I just heard obloquy let out a groan! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Well, dragons had other weapons than their breath. A dragon can crush armies with his tail, so probably also a one Balrog. And it's jaws can also be pretty dangerous, I believe.

And Dragons were in charge of Morgoth's armies in all battles after they were able to be. Glaurung in the Sudden Flame and in Nargothrond. There is no mention who commanded the armies in Nirnaeth or Gondolin.

And maybe Dragons just were not the best commanders.

[Galorme]

Am I right in thinking Dragons were merely an extension of Morgoth? The Balrogs had Maia spirits, and Morgoth's other servents were either corrupted from beings or had their own Maia spirits. How about the dragons? If they weren't corrupted and didn't have their own spirits then they must be extensions of Morgoth's will. Well?

[Manwe Sulimo]

Here it is...once and for all...the undisputable answer of whether Balrogs have wings or not!

The answer: No.

The reason: Balrogs are actually whips. Whips haven't wings. Therefore (by transitive property) Balrogs haven't wings. End of argument.

If any of you have no clue what I'm talking about, get The Silmarillion and a good dictionary.