Scarburg Meadhall Discussion Thread

[Gwathagor]

Good idea. Crabannan could be a bad influence, if you like.

[Folwren]

Well...he hardly needs a bad influence, but it would be interesting, nontheless. Sounds fun. Shall we try it?

-- Foley

[Folwren]

Wow, things have really been quiet aroud here, and a WW game isn't even in progress. That's...scary...

-- Foley

EDIT: That is to say, there's one in progress, but it hasn't started yet.

[Nogrod]

Sorry. I've been really busy as the spring semester started but I'll be writing something on the weekend...

[Nerindel]

Name: Matrim Astalder, Son of Lord Mordavim of Arnen


Age: 22 Race: Gondorian Gender: Male


Appearance: Matrim is of average height and build for a young man of the Arnen, he has a medium complexion and his hair is usually a mid golden brown but at the moment it is a dark golden colour as it was lemon rinsed so that he and Balvir could go among the Rohirrim without drawing to much attention. (At least until they spoke! :P As their strong Southern Gondorian accents would be quite difficult to mask.) His soft grey eyes convey a gentle calmness that belies the depth and strength of his emotions.

At present Matrim is dressed in the attire of that of a Rohirrim man at arms (again for afore mentioned reasons.) Belted about his waist and hanging at his left side is a gondorian long sword, with no sigils on the pommel and only a leather bound grip, it looks the same as any other, giving nothing away about the young man’s true rank and status but about his neck on a plain leather thong is a solid gold ring with the sigils of his house (Crossed sword and arrow for house Astalder against the white tree of gondor) which he keeps carefully hidden under his shirt.

Character/History: Nestled between the river Anduin and the road south to Harad, under the shadow of Emyn Arnen are the lands that Matrim calls home. Although born there he spent much of his younger years behind the protective walls of Minas Tirith, as it was a time of uncertainty and unrest with the dark shadow of Mordor infecting the land of his birth his grandfather (the then Lord of Arnen) thought it safe to move the women and children to the safety of the white city. While Matrim’s father and many of the young men of Arnen where called to aid Lord Faramir in northern Ithilien , his grandfather and what men he had left defended the people of the Arnen as best they could. Matrim was nine before they returned, were his father became the new Lord and they buried his grandfather, along with honouring all those who had died in the defence of the Arnen. The years passed quickly and like the lands of Arnen; Matrim flourished and grew into a fairly well disciplined and honourable young man, with not only a fine education in diplomacy and governance, but also at his father’s behest he trained under Captain Balvir to gain discipline and leadership skills with a small hope also to curb his son’s more impulsive and sometimes overly passionate nature. Currently Matrim is charged by his father to protect Lady Æðelhild during her temporary self imposed exile. So that he can gather evidence to disprove her uncles ludicious claims and prove her innocence beyond reproach and restore to her the comfort and security her late father and his best friend had always intended for her.

Here you go I finally figured out where I had put Mat's Bio, I hope it doesn't throw to much of a spanner in the works ;P now to catch up on the thread and see if I cannot re-introduce my troop into the story.

---------------------------------

Linked ~*~ Pio

[Nogrod]

Nice to see you back around Nerindel! If you have any complaints on how Matrim is used while you have been away, please let us know. They can be changed - unless it is old enough and has consequences with the basic storyline and thus is being past redeeming (not that I remember there being such instances further back there).


I'll write something in tomorrow.

Also I've finally had time to sent Groin a PM. Let's hear what he says.


But meanwhile - as I said earlier - there is a lot we could do without referring to Groin's last post as that is something that happened a bit later than where the thread is right now and the things described there could be found out even later. That would also give Groin time to consider, whether he wishes to come back and change a thing or two - or not.

Actually I think now that if he doesn't wish to come back we should at least try to think how we could deal with it and not bother Pio. We can take the post as his last challenge for us to overcome together.

And what a challenge would it be! A murder and a get-away! Erbrand and Lithor would be declared outlaws by king Eomer for manslaughter - and making peace with the two groups would be much harder (it wasn't looking hard already?) as lord Athanar and those coming with him would now think the "original MeadHallers" as murderers... for a reason.

How to get over that? Any suggestions?

If it feels too hard, we'll call for Pio to delete Groin's post and just make Erbrand and Lithor to run away, but let's think of it first. It would be sad to call for deletion of such a laboured post

But if it destroys the future of this game we have no other chance.

So any ideas?

How would the character's of you older writers react to the news?

I can say readily that Stigend (and probably Garstan as well) would be appalled and reconsider what they thought of Erbrand... and looking at how Lithor behaved... also him. They had honoured them both but would now... well, reconsider to say the least.

How about the character's of you others?


I'd like to hear from you all actually as to hear whether it is possible to continue with that post by Groin or not (eg. do we have to contact Pio or not).

But as I said, we have lots to write before anyone has to pay any attention to that post.

So let me see it!


Heh, a funny idea... is there a thing that brings people together better than a common enemy? No there isn't.

So could Erbrand and Lithor (and Scyld) work as scapegoats to all the possible rivalries thus uniting the people? It would of course not be as easy or straightforwards as that, but in the end that might be actually believable...

What do you think?

[Durelin]

I can't seriously respond to your post here yet, Nog (I'll have to think more), but I do think it could turn into a sort of bringing together of the new and the old, if they all indeed unite in a way against murderers. It could be a sort of rude awakening.

Also - I finally posted an attempt at drills...I was very vague and just got them well under way. I left it as they would be starting more individualized drills, so that's better opportunity for posting. I also left Thornden out because he's not my character of course (and I explained Coen's feelings hehe), so let me know Folwren if you want me to edit so Thornden can be more involved.

Basically let me know if there's anything wrong with my post, and if I am way off on things. I mostly fudged things, hehe.

[Folwren]

um...I don't think Scyld is actually dead. If you read Groin's post, after Erbrand leaves Kara sometime it mentions the two ladies helping Scyld back, which indicated, to me, that Scyld wasn't dead, but Erbrand thought he was...?

Otherwise, I think we can overcome it and just write. Things happen...accidental manslaughters do occur frequently in real life, and people run, from fear. I think the reactions to Groin's post will be interesting and wide in variety. I say let's just play it out.

But first, obviously, we have to decide if Scyld is actually dead.

Just my two cents.

Dury, I'll read your post, but I'm sure it's fine. I'll post a response today or tomorrow.

-- Foley

[Loslote]

Well, for the 'older' chars, it could serve as a reminder that the newcomers can be the victims, not just the bad guys. They might be able to work out that maybe they should give the newcomers a chance...

But the real problem is, the newcomers won't react that way. They'll view the locals with heightened suspicion and anger. Even if they didn't personally like Scyld, he was one of theirs. The soilders especially aren't going to take that lying down. They'd view it as an affront to them, like "oh, you guys are so lame, we can take you down!" and respond accordingly. Seriously, only a saint wouldn't be furious, and even then they'd still be plenty ticked off.

I think Scyld is dead. I'd have to check the exact wording, but I got the impression that they were bringing back his body, but I could be wrong. Still, medical treatment at the time probably isn't that good. There's a good chance he'd die anyway.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I think Scyld is dead. I'd have to check the exact wording, but I got the impression that they were bringing back his body, but I could be wrong. Still, medical treatment at the time probably isn't that good. There's a good chance he'd die anyway.

Maybe, but I think there's enough doubt in it that we can say Erbrand thought he was dead, but he turned out not to be. If I were one of the two women, I would not bring back the dead body of a full grown man. That would be tough, plus gross.

I agree, though, with what Loslote said. This will add higher walls to the division between the old and new Scarburgians. It won't solve any problems. A lot of people will be very angry, but I think that the old Scarburgians will be angry and upset, too. It's not like they're going to try to justify Erbrand's actions.

In all honesty, I think what Groin's written adds fascinating fuel to our fire....we should be able to use it to our advantage.

-- Foley

[Gwathagor]

Suggestion: I think "Scarburgers" might be more correct than "Scarburgians" - since Hamburgers, Frankfurters, and Berliners are the terms used to refer to the inhabitants of several Germanic cities, and the Rohirrim speak a basically Germanic language.

[Nogrod]

A Double-Scarburger with cheese?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

A Double-Scarburger with cheese?

Yeah yeah yeah. I know.

[Nogrod]

Fea: there is now a direct question to Degas in the ending of my last post.

It would be nice if you reacted but if you can't, I can just delete those two last lines. Whatever you wish.

Originally Posted by Gwath

Hamburgers, Frankfurters, and Berliners

The fun thing for an European was that all these you gave as examples are actually food!

[Folwren]

It's not just you, Nogrod - we Americans, too, have Hamburgers and Frankfurters...though I personally have never heard of a Berliner foodwise.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The fun thing for an European was that all these you gave as examples are actually food!

Yeah. But only outside of those cities!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Folwren

though I personally have never heard of a Berliner foodwise.

Well to many of us here in Scandinavia at least it's a greasy doughnut with a melt pink-coloured sugar topping...

Or a sausage... back in the seventies.

[Mnemosyne]

JFK: "Ich bin ein Berliner."

Literal translation: "I am a jelly doughnut" (the way to say what he wanted would have been "Ich bin Berliner).

And naturally, only Americans who knew the ins and outs of German grammar cared.

...As you were.

[Nerindel]

Nice to see you back around Nerindel! If you have any complaints on how Matrim is used while you have been away, please let us know. They can be changed - unless it is old enough and has consequences with the basic storyline and thus is being past redeeming (not that I remember there being such instances further back there).

No its all fine as you will no doubt see, Matrim and Balvir have been pretending to be that which they are not. That is now about to change they are going to be forced to be themselves once more.

Durelin, Foley : Matrim is not at drill, I'm not sure if Ceon would realise this but Thornden should, also Balvir is a captian and a seasoned soldier of Ithielien and as such should have no trouble with anything the new commander throws at him.

[Nogrod]

That looks quite interesting Nerindel! Great!

Now what do you think Neridel, Foley, how should we handle the fact that lord Athanar does not yet know there are these two Gondorians around? Will they purposefully try to hide it - even if Athanar would sooner or later learn about it anyway. Would they come and introduce themselves? Would they discuss with Thornden about it first? What do you think?

Looking at lord Athanar's character I think he would wish to see Matrim attend his table as well with Saeryn and Degas, the nobleman he is.

[Nerindel]

As King Eomer is aware and has agreed to letting them stay in Rohan I would think he would have informed Athanar of the situation before he left Edoras. the question is how does Athanar feel about having a suspected murderess in Scarburg and the households healer at that. (even though the charges against her are false, he can't know that for sure as he has not yet met or spoken with her. ) Matrim and Balvir strongly believe she is not guilty and she has already convinced King Eomer and Edowine in previous posts that she is not guilty. I would hope that their would be a few others in the hall that would also stand for her. As Eomer has agreed to Elessar's decree that she be exiled to Scarburg he will have no choice to keep her there, but he doesn't need to like it if you don't want him too. I'm sure many of the origanal mead hall residance will be upset by the deception, as with King Elessar's decree they will have no need to hide who they are.

Like I have said in my post both Balvir and Matrim will lend their swords if asked, but one of them will now always be with Æðelhild probably in shifts, Athanor may want to have his men watch her too but again that is up too you.

I hope to post Matrim and Æðelhild's encounter in the morning (GMT) I would think they would introduce themselves if Athanar does not summon them first.

[piosenniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If it feels too hard, we'll call for Pio to delete Groin's post and just make Erbrand and Lithor to run away, but let's think of it first. It would be sad to call for deletion of such a laboured post

But if it destroys the future of this game we have no other chance.

So any ideas?

Just to let you know -- when a post is "deleted", it's 'soft' deleted; that is, I can always retrieve it.

~*~ Pio

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by piosenniel

Just to let you know -- when a post is "deleted", it's 'soft' deleted; that is, I can always retrieve it.

~*~ Pio

Good to hear that.

We have still a lot to write before what Groin's post had in it needs to come to the light - so we have time for Groin to reconsider, which I think should be the solution number one.

So let's wait for a few days, a week perhaps, and come back to this then if we hear nothing from Groin before that? And really I'd hate to "delete" a post as laboured as his was... so I'm still willing to hear it from you others; could we live with that scenario if we consider we'd need to strive for somekind of peace between the older and newer "Scarburgers" in the end?

[Folwren]

Nerindel, I just read your post, and it was really, really good.

I will take note of what you say here on the discussion thread and have Thornden note Matrim's absence. I don't know when I'll get a chance to post, but I will eventually.

-- Foley

[Nogrod]

Drat.

I had thought I'd write a short meeting with the craftsmen and lord Athanar just to give you more perspective into his character. But then I realised that Erbrand is a craftsman and might have been called for the meeting as well...

Well, he was a tanner so maybe he wasn't called for it? Garstan, Stigend and Harreld would be called in anyway as they are in charge of the building-works... probably Náin as well as he is around now.

I'm probably not having time to write it today but I'll try to do it tomorrow. Any ideas if it would sound natural Erbrand was not called for?

[Folwren]

I think it would be reasonable if he wasn't called for, since he wouldn't actually be working on the building. So, what you said.

-- Foley

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Just to report that I am alive... I can see, oh my, you have been incredibly productive over the holidays... I did not and do not have time to read anything anywhere since my last post, but you can expect me to be back in about a week... so let's see after that... let's see where we actually are

[Nerindel]

Ok Matrim has broke the bad news to Æðel and they are ready to introduce themselves to Lord Athanar, as I have stated that it took Æðel a while to get ready they could wait till after he has spoken to the craftsmen.

[Nogrod]

Or we can skip the craftsmen episode as that is kind of filling up anyway and can be done later as well... Your call Nerindel! If you want that meeting with the Gondorians and lord Athanar done more likely about now, then we'll do that.

I have two days with quite tight scheduals, but if you have any ideas you could PM me about them to begin with (like how they would present themselves - or even some lines already). We could work a shared post on that during the coming days.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Though I'm home, I'm in no mental condition to even catch up just now. So I wanted to stop in and reinforce my statement that you guys can responsibly use my characters until my return, that I'll be back when I can, and that I look forward to having the time and energy to write blithely for fun again!

[Folwren]

A new character. What fun.

Name: Quin

Age/Gender/Race/Where From: 19. Male. Rohirrim. Edoras

Appearance: Average height, thinly built, blond hair, blue eyes, round, childish face.

Bits of Character/History You Might Fell Helpful In Defining the Character: Quin is shy and mild, most of the time. He is still feeling his way through life and figuring out who he is. This is his first time away from Edoras, and he’s a little intimidated. He wants to please, but he can be clumsy.

He was born in Edoras to a soldier and his wife. His father went to war when Rohan went to fight at the Pelennor fields, and he did not return. Quin was five years old at the time. His mother found work where she could, but it was difficult to support herself and her son. When he was ten, she approached lord Athanar, a man under whom her husband had fought during the war, and asked him if he would take Quin as a page, to bring him up and raise him to be an eorlinga. Athanar agreed, and when Quin turned eleven, he moved into Athanar’s household.

He worked hard during his time there, and as he grew older, he was trained in the art of war and weaponry. He did not like being separated from his mother at first, and he did not like Athanar’s sons, who are about the same age as he. However, he got over his homesickness and learned to live in his new environment. Lately he has been officially added to the men-at-arms and he's still unsure of himself.

- - - - - - - - - -

LINKED ~*~ Pio

[Nogrod]

Yay Foley! That turned out quite nice!

[Folwren]

In my last two posts I left openings for Gwathagor to write and Durelin. And also, I mentioned Aedhel coming into the mead hall.

-- Foley

[Nerindel]

I would like to write a post for Iomhair before I get back to Matrim and Aeol, but I am having trouble deciding where she would be. As Scribe she would have wanted to be present at the trials so that they could be documented, but as Scribes where usually trusted members of a lords household I'm not sure if Athanar would have permitted her to be present at such matters until he got to know her better. So the question is, do I write Iomhair's thoughts on the trial or make it more interesting by having her brood about not being permitted? Any thoughts?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerindel

I would like to write a post for Iomhair before I get back to Matrim and Aeol, but I am having trouble deciding where she would be. As Scribe she would have wanted to be present at the trials so that they could be documented, but as Scribes where usually trusted members of a lords household I'm not sure if Athanar would have permitted her to be present at such matters until he got to know her better. So the question is, do I write Iomhair's thoughts on the trial or make it more interesting by having her brood about not being permitted? Any thoughts?

It's probably good you raised the issue once again as I was not sure if it got clear between all these to and fro discussions and all the surprises...

So lord Athanar could have just called for Coenred and Thornden and give them executive orders to "punish" Javan & Lithor in the way he saw it fit as it is a domestic issue between the lord and his subordinates.

But as the situation was such a delicate one - well quite bad indeed - he decided he would create a hearing of sorts where he could show his leadership and fairness and make the decisions public.

So it was not a trial but a "hearing" where the people facing some consequences were allowed to speak for themselves before lord Athanar would bring on his verdict in public.

Looking at that, there would have been no reason for Athanar to ban or not permit Iomhair from attending. But neither was there any need to anyone act as a scribe to take notes of it. I think lord Athanar would have not paid attention to Iomhair actually as he's not probably even too aware of a scribe around there in the first place - so she could have attended or not and scribed something down or not.

So sory to not allow you the thrill of Athanar banning her from the hearings, but I can see no reason why he would have done that, as his intention was to make everything more open it would normally be.

We might think about the two meeting during this day fex.? Maybe when Athanar meets with the other Gondorians?

[Folwren]

Hm. I know patience is a virtue. But could I at least hear if someone was intending to post sometime? When they got inspiration? Or time? Or something? Fea, are you around? What about Nienna? Gwathagor? I know some people are busy in the WW game...but it's night now, so maybe someone will have a chance in the next twenty-two hours and forty-minutes to post (yeah, I keep tabs). Maybe?

Well...I'll go back to being patient.

-- Foley

[Gwathagor]

Yeah, I've been meaning to post, sorry. I'll try to get something up this weekend.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I know some people are busy in the WW game...but it's night now, so maybe someone will have a chance in the next twenty-two hours and forty-minutes to post (yeah, I keep tabs). Maybe?

I've been work-loaded for more than is good to my health so I haven't basically been able to play the werewolf either. Going to work early in the morning and going non-stop to 10-11 PM... But it should ease up a little now as a new week starts.

Lommy, Legate?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I am here and I still have about six or something posts to read (ugh... it was some job to read it until now anyway), but that's already the training and all... I think I could post something after that (possibly, or maybe likely, I will get some inspiration when reading it... and that's something where Hilderinc definitely could figure...)

Anyway, a few notes to what's been discussed here before, even though I don't want to raise the matter again. I think it's good to have put the fuss around Groin's characters to rest and wait for his response, which I hope will come and I hope the situation could be solved in some good manner.

A few notes, though, to things I have noticed on the way:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I can understand Athanar has some problematic characters around for the sake of storyline interests, like Aforglaed; he could be a son of a fellow lord or something, or a promising youth in arms even if a bit "teen" for his manners, or something like that. Also I think Athanar could stretch for Scyrr if he is an exceptionally good soldier - actually I don't see any other reason why he would have Scyrr among his ranks (he seems to be a kind of a guy lord Athanar would have gotten rid off in the first possible moment) - so beware anyone of you if you wish to try him with your character, he's going to beat you all as he still hangs around...

First, I feel the need to step in for Scyrr here. Now if you read the posts both for Áforglaed and Scyrr (excluding Groin's last post, which I will speak about more below), I don't think they are really bad. I think they are open to interpretation, and whenever posting for Scyrr (as it had been really mostly me who was doing it), I was keeping him in lines of something Nogrod said on this thread just after Scyrr has been posted for the first time: something like "He's either rude... or maybe he's just straightforward about his opinions." Scyrr, in my vision for him (which left still 90% of him as blank spaces) was only this: slightly self-centered, not willing to see others' point of view and convinced that he is always in the right, and that those who are with "him" are always in the right (cf. his words to Hilderinc when there was this initial brawl: when the case was hushed up, Scyrr felt that the newcomers have been wronged, as it WAS the local soldier who had started the fight - i.e. did strike first - and Scyrr in his self-centeredness was just overlooking the fact that the soldier had been provoked. But that's all, I don't think that's any trait that would make him strikingly obviously wicked. Scyrr is also apparently blunt in his opinions, but certainly would watch his tongue when talking to his superior. And even if he was prone to not doing it, he would have learned by now that he cannot do it face to Athanar, if nothing else).

Same goes for Áforglaed - funnily enough, he may be even "worse" than Scyrr - but then, he seems a bit more "cowardly" (i.e. avoiding escalating the conflict if he can), which would explain how he would get away with whatever troubles he might cause. He seemed willing to admit his fault and accept consequences, if it meant saving him from something worse. He would be probably too afraid to dare to do anything too bad in front of the lord (and anyway, he does not seem to do anything evil by himself - more like "accidentally", or just by not watching his tongue enough etc).

Originally Posted by Loslote

Seriously, though, a place in the retinue of a nobleman, particularly one as important as Lord Athanar, would be an enviable position. No one with anything less than excellent credentials or character. Really, Aforglaed is toeing the line as to acceptable soldiers - he would have to be the son of a close friend of Athanar's (or Wynflaed's, I suppose).

The same goes for this. Now just let me see if you are not misinterpretating the poor people a bit I mean, what is so horrible about Áforglaed, too? He is certainly not a shiny example, he is perhaps a bit more negative than positive character, but still - only from what he has done this far - is he really that bad? I think maybe some of you have formed a box called "baddies" in your heads and after the guys have been thrown in there once, it's easy to label them as total baddies and interpretate all their actions in the worst way, but hey, the way I see them at least, they are not THAT horrible... I mean, they are negative, but not so that they would necessarily make me wonder how comes Athanar put such terrible people in his service... they are, to me, just "average bad soldiers, of which kind there are dozens"...

So that would be it for the "Apology of the Unknown Soldier" part... Although if Nog especially you think that the folks look weird from Athanar's POV, I would like to hear that, as the point is of course his perspective... but you didn't seem to protest in the beginning (quite the opposite) and they seem to have not changed (unless counting Groin's incident). Now on to another issue...

And that is the soldier whom Erbrand fought with (possibly killed). First, one general thing, which you might have figured out already if you were reading the above. In Groin's post, the soldier he wounded or killed or whatever was called "Scyld". Everybody on this thread has been hereafter talking about him as "Scyld". Of course. But from all that has been said in Groin's post and then also on this thread, I think he just meant Scyrr. Scyld is some soldier from the original Mead Hall, originally Firefoot's character, if I am not mistaken. Scyrr is this "bad" NPC guy of Athanar's household. Given that Erbrand said "I killed one of Athanar's soldiers", I assume Groin meant Scyrr, not Scyld.

That's just so to clear things up. Speaking of this, I would add a general reminder, as I have been thinking about something like that also a long time ago already. Whenever you are writing for somebody and you are not 100% sure about his identity, go and check the first page of the discussion thread. Most of the characters are described there (speaking of which maybe I, or somebody, could indeed make a bio also for these Áforglaeds and co. In any case, Scyld's bio is there if nothing else, so it should've been clear that he is not Scyrr).

And to the thing that has been asked here:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I think it all depends on whether Groin wishes to continue writing this and then wants to take something back

Indeed I simply think we should go with that, like I said, and wait a while for Groin.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Actually I think now that if he doesn't wish to come back we should at least try to think how we could deal with it and not bother Pio. We can take the post as his last challenge for us to overcome together.

And what a challenge would it be! A murder and a get-away! Erbrand and Lithor would be declared outlaws by king Eomer for manslaughter - and making peace with the two groups would be much harder (it wasn't looking hard already?) as lord Athanar and those coming with him would now think the "original MeadHallers" as murderers... for a reason.

(...)

I can say readily that Stigend (and probably Garstan as well) would be appalled and reconsider what they thought of Erbrand... and looking at how Lithor behaved... also him. They had honoured them both but would now... well, reconsider to say the least.

How about the character's of you others?

(...)

Heh, a funny idea... is there a thing that brings people together better than a common enemy? No there isn't.

So could Erbrand and Lithor (and Scyld) work as scapegoats to all the possible rivalries thus uniting the people? It would of course not be as easy or straightforwards as that, but in the end that might be actually believable...

What do you think?

Well, not that it didn't occur to me when I read it, a swift party sent to pursuit of the two fellows, but then, I think it's a bit over the top. From my part, I would rather want to avoid that. Just lay it to rest. Although there will be simply this "legend of two deserters" and now that would probably really just contribute to differenciating opinions (if I sort of exaggerate it, the worst two extremes would be "You old-Scarburgians are murderers and deserters!" and "Erbrand and Lithor were an example of honourable resistance against oppression! To arms!"). If Groin does not come back or make some changes there, I would prefer some other solution. But I would like him to come back, firstly.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Maybe, but I think there's enough doubt in it that we can say Erbrand thought he was dead, but he turned out not to be. If I were one of the two women, I would not bring back the dead body of a full grown man. That would be tough, plus gross.

And indeed. In the question "so is the guy dead or not", I would think he is not: it seems like that from Groin's account, and by all logic - the women would not carry him in, but ran in yelling "there is a dead soldier" if he was in really bad condition. They'd even call for help probably if he was very badly wounded, but since there are two women bringing him back, it implies actually that he is able to almost walk, so actually his state won't be even that bad, I think.

But anyway all in all, this whole scenario with two people attacking each other like that seems a bit over the top to me from the beginning.

[Thinlómien]

Hello darlings, I'm finally back - sorry about deserting you all for such a long time. But I'm going to post today, at least for W&W (they are definitely not happy!) and hopefully for Modtryth too, although there's less to say about her and I'm not sure if I have the energy to make something up.

As for all that's been happening, well, I can't say much, but I have to say all the drama is to my liking. So why not keep it? If it's not a murder, if it's just a bloody brawl and the ladies testify that both men were intent on killing each other, then I think it's ok.