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10-06-2009, 11:42 AM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
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Nature/Cause of the weariness of Eldar in the Third Age
Did Tolkien ever write anything about what the cause was of the weariness the High Elves felt during the Third Age? Given the thousands of years of their struggles against evil in the First and Second Ages I can see no obvious reason why they would suddenly not care for matters of the world in the TA. Obviously few of them would have fought the long fight during all that time (most fo hte Eldar would have perisehd in the many wars and battles) meaning that even the "young" Eldar, those born in the TA, were also affected by the weariness. Is the weariness somehow caused by Sauron with the intent of ridding himself of his most powerful enemy race? Did the creation of the Rings of Power (most made with his assistance) initiate the weariness?
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JeffF(Fingolfin) |
10-06-2009, 01:50 PM | #2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Just to throw in my two cents, personally I think it has lot to do with something like an anticipation of the Age of Men to come. And it was clear that some big change is coming to Middle-Earth - Galadriel, or who was it (though I get the feeling that basically every Elf in LotR said something like that), summed it up quite well - either Sauron wins, which means the end for the Elves in Middle-Earth, or he is defeated, which means the end for the Elves in Middle-Earth. Because it means the end of the Rings and the start of the dominion of Men, if nothing else. Some seemingly believed, or would like to believe, that the Three might continue their work after they are freed from the One's rule, but the Wise - like Galadriel, as she says - apparently believed otherwise, and of course, correctly.
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10-06-2009, 02:37 PM | #3 |
Wight of the Old Forest
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As our dear sally would phrase it: What he said (Legate, I mean). But to elaborate a little, I think the fading of the Elves before the coming dominion of Men started long before the Third Age and the War of the Ring. Already at the turn from the First to the Second Age, the Eldarin population of Middle-earth had diminished considerably due to the War of the Jewels and the subsequent exodus to Tol Eressea; during the Second Age, we see them more and more confined to a couple of isolated realms (Lindon, Eregion, Lórien, Greenwood the Great - this tendency continues into the Third Age, of course), while Men multiplied much faster and spread over the vast areas inbetween.
In this context, the forging of the Rings of Power could be seen as a last attempt by the Elves to hold their own - to restore or preserve the world as they had known and loved it, if only in a few protected places. When that attempt backfired bigtime, what else was left to them but resignation? Realizing that their desire to resist the change had rendered them vulnerable to manipulation by the Enemy probably didn't help, either.
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10-06-2009, 02:42 PM | #4 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Talking about the "weariness" itself... the weltschmertz or the angst...
Well, blaming Sauron for it looks to me a bit too simple an answer - and not honouring the elves their due. Like, "I'm getting done with your rule in the ME, now start feeling bad and show some common resignation"... Looking at Tolkien's work one should probably look farther and on a larger scale. What I have always thought being the reason for the "annui" has been just the fact that they have lived so long, being involved for so long, seen so much... seen so many a thing recurring, repeating itself. Every child - or a childish person - wants to live forever but when one gets even a glimpse of what eternity might actually mean one grows up and sees the freedom and meaningfulness of living a limited mortal life. To me that has just been the realisation of the elves... they have grown up, they have realised that another millenia, and another, and another... will be just the same with some minor variations and the struggle between good and bad etc. will go on whatever they do... And isn't that one of the recurring themes of our mythologies and popular cultures: how immortals envy those who can just live and die? That might be just my perspective but I think one could actually argue for it, at least better than for Sauron and the fear of losing control...
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10-06-2009, 03:04 PM | #5 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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I've always thought the 'fading' of the Elves in Middle-earth was connected to their inherent difference from the land itself. They were immortal creatures living in a mortal world, and eventually had to make way for the mortal Men who were its masters.
It seems to be a mirror effect of that which the Blessed Realm would have on mortals, as explained to the Númenóreans by the Eldar: Quote:
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10-06-2009, 03:19 PM | #6 |
Haunting Spirit
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Elvish numbers fairly large at end of SA
Tolkien wrote in the Silmarillion about the host of the Last Alliance of Men and Elves when it gathered at Imladris (Rivendell) that, "none greater has been mustered (in Middle Earth) since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim." Given that the kingdom of Arnor was only around a hundred years old the Eldar must have numbered a fairly large part of that host (which was smaller than the army that actually fought at Dagorlad since the Silvan Elves and the Army of Gondor joined it after the gathering at Imladris). I grant that most of these troops at Imladris must have been men, Tolkien writes that he Eldar dwelt most in the lands beyond the Ered Luin, in the Havens and in Imladris implying that most of the lands of Arnor must have been occupied by men under Gil-Galad's rule (prior to him ceding these lands and people to Elendil).
In reading the Peoples of Middle Earth book I agree that the Eldar were diminishing but it seems that Tolkien meant mostly in stature (he calls the Noldor Gnomes in Peoples of Middle Earth) making statements implying they were shorter than their ancestors. The affect of the "weariness" seems to be limited to the Eldar, the Silvan Elves seem to be much as they have always been, preferring to keep to themselves and only intervening during the in a limited fashion in the war on Sauron, their hosts in the Last Alliance being the last time they march on the Dark Lord. The Avari also seem immune to the "weariness" though of course they are almost a non-entity as far as the history of Middle Earth goes.
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10-06-2009, 03:49 PM | #7 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Quote:
I don't have the books handy, but didn't Legolas make a comment to Gimli along the lines of 'The kingdoms of men will outlast us'? Maybe he realised that one day he too would be subject to the fading.
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10-06-2009, 04:26 PM | #8 |
Haunting Spirit
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Legolas Silvan by culture Sindarin by ancestry
According to Unfinished Tales in the chapter about Galadriesl and Celeborn, Thranduil, Legolas' father, was a Sindarin Elf who ruled over Silvan elves. Both the Sindar and the Noldor seem to have been affected by weariness.
All elves seem to have been affected by the sea longing that Legolas experienced. Perhaps this is the explanation of the abandonment of Lorien though it is nowhere states specifically where the Silvan elves went.
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JeffF(Fingolfin) |
10-06-2009, 08:34 PM | #9 |
Laconic Loreman
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Middle-earth is perfect for Men, because Men are mortal. Death comes to them all, and death also quite literally is the nature of Middle-earth.
With Elves, death is not certain, and Tolkien notes their primary weakness is an inability to change. Basically they don't like it. Galadriel tried to turn Lorien into her own personal Undying Lands by stopping Time, stopping her own personal realm from decaying. Try as she might, she could only slow Time, thus only slow decay. So, I think Middle-earth was just an unfit place for Elves, it's nature is in line with the nature of Men, as the Undying Lands is in line with the nature of Elves.
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10-06-2009, 08:54 PM | #10 |
Gruesome Spectre
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That's the key, I think. Why else would it be only Elves dwelling in Middle-earth who were affected? Those in the West didn't fade because the land of their dwelling was immortal, just as they were.
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10-07-2009, 11:26 AM | #11 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
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10-07-2009, 02:11 PM | #12 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Actually I think my thought will combine with Boro's (and yours Legate) quite neatly. And thank's Boro for adding something I had totally ignored as I thought of the question just from this human perspective we people tend to have...
So this ME is a place of transient things, ever-recurring conditions and choices, forwards and backwards... always incomplete. From an immortal perspective it should be frustrating indeed. That's why those elves dwelling in the West had no such problems, living in the platonic world of perfectness as they were. And because of that gap between men and the elves we men can never really understand the bliss of an ever-unchanging world the elves might long for - and therefore the only meaning given to us humans is, like Gandalf says "deciding what to do with the time that is given to us".
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10-07-2009, 02:27 PM | #13 | |
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As well as this, their minds are suited to immortality and no change, so they need a land of immortality and no change in which to live. Hmm... I don't think I said exactly what I was trying to, but that'll do for now.
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10-07-2009, 02:30 PM | #14 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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10-07-2009, 02:36 PM | #15 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Quote:
When it's the one life you have and limited one as such, then every word you say and every act you do counts. The less days you have, the more precious (), the more meaningful they are. Sadly many people seem to think they live forever and do not care...
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10-07-2009, 02:58 PM | #16 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
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10-07-2009, 03:03 PM | #17 | |
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Also, great people are measured in this case by single great deeds. For example, take Cirdan. He has probably killed more orcs and given more good counsel and helped more people than any human (and possibly even elf as well), but he is not remembered as one of the great because he does it slowly over a period of time. It is for this reason also that the elven kingdoms change much less rapidly than human kingdoms. Land for Men in Middle-Earth is lost and gained much faster than for elves, because elves are more reserved in the Third Age. In the First Age, all of Middle-Earth was new to them, and they were much more rash, but by the Third Age, they were settled, whereas Men, with their population so rapidly changing, are always on the move in comparison, and mostly either advance or gain land in leaps, or lose a lot in a short period of time. In our real history this is true as well- many great empires have expanded very quickly.
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10-07-2009, 03:25 PM | #18 | |
Laconic Loreman
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As opposed to the much more thoughtful (and Elven) Faramir, who loved Gondor just as much as Boromir, but knew and cared, what the Ring would do had he claimed it.
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10-07-2009, 03:33 PM | #19 | |
Odinic Wanderer
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Sorry for poor spelling.
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If some men are wise, some rash, some stupid and some made of jam then surely they will not all reason alike. So some might reason that because of their limited time in ME, they will only have one shot at making it right and thus care more, but others might think otherwise. Anyways the point about ME being a rapidly changing place is a very good one and I must admit I found it rather enlightening to read through this thread. It probably cannot explain everything. . . as it was stated earlier there seem to be a difference between the different groups of elves and how weary they are of life in ME. It does seem to me that high elves have a longing for days of yore, when life was young and sweet in Valinor. Others seem to have a sence of an era comming to an end and a longing for the sea (hell, I have a longing for the sea), but it does not seem as hughe a thing as it does to high elves. |
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10-07-2009, 03:47 PM | #20 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Quote:
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10-07-2009, 03:48 PM | #21 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I think, of course there are those who don't care about the future at all, but I think they are not too many. Generally I think it's either too much of pride or something, which is on the way ("Men of Gondor would never fall to the Ring") even in contrary to all the facts (think of all the revolutions in the name of good are something that shows the same pattern in our history), or just closing one's ears to everything and pretending that future does not exist, or that the concerns that are there do not exist (like maybe it was even for Isildur, "but the Dark Lord is dead - no problem with taking his Ring, and Elrond and Círdan, hush, hush, I never heard what they were telling me").
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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10-11-2009, 10:26 AM | #22 |
shadow of a doubt
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Boro88 has a good point in that Middle Earth is a more fitting place for Men than the Eldar who rather belong in the Undying Lands. The fading of the Elves really began already with the first rising of the Sun, when the growth and decay of all things sped up and the Second People arose.
There's also another point I'd like to bring up. It is easy to think that Elves are like Men more or less apart from having practically an unlimited life-span and a few special skills. That is not the case though I believe. Men are as a people fallen (though destined to rise above it) and are burdened down with original sin; they make war and slay each other, they plunder, steal, rape, cut down entire forests, hunt beasts and catch fish until extinction, poison the air and the waters and, well, the list goes on and on. Men of course not being a fantasy-creation, they are us. Elves on the contrary are not fallen as a people, though there might be individual bad apples. Unlike Men, Elves exist in harmony with nature, taking only what they really need, and using that with respect and love. It's written somewhere that Elves love the things in nature for what they are, and wish not to change them. Development is therefore not something the Elves really care for, unless we're talking about a new clever idea in linguistics or art or something similar, and although they might have the brains to invent the mustard gas or the fax machine, they have no will for it. Men on the other hand appreciate the things in nature rather for what use they have of them, and when that utility is gone they can discard them without care and move on to the next best thing, which is always better than what they have now. Men are always driven forward, they are restless and the grass is always greener on the other side. With this in mind I think the Elves realized that they could not in the end co-exist with Men on Earth. I mean, just look at the history of the human race. The winners are always the most effective killers, or the most manipulative power-players. The most organized, efficient and powerful conquering rulers destroy or subjugate the timid and the meek, or the less accomplished power-players and murderers, that's how it's always been - history is one long arms- and ideology-race. In order to remain in Middle Earth as a Power, the Eldar would eventually have to take part in that game, and as this was something that went completely against their nature they would rather leave for the Undying Land. At least that's my take on it.
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10-17-2009, 06:35 PM | #23 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Maybe they were just REALLY tired of arguing about whether or not balrogs had wings...
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10-19-2009, 10:08 AM | #24 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Guess we are all elves then Fordim...
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