What do the High Elves really think of Men?

[CSteefel]

The thread on "Robbing the Cradle" has me wondering what the Elves (but also Tolkien) really think about the Elves as a race versus Men.

In Appendix A in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Elrond says

But as for Arwen the Fair, Lady of Imladris and of Lorien, Evenstar of her people, she is of lineage greater than yours...She is too far above you...

which contradicts my own earlier comments about Elrond and Elros. One would have thought that Elrond and Elros initially started as equals and the choice of mortality by Elros was not any reflection of his inferiority. Now one could argue of course that the Numenorean race had dwindled considerably--certainly their life span was lessened, and they made some very big mistakes that brought the ruin of Numenor, so perhaps this is what Elrond in mind.

But even in earlier ages, as with Beren and Luthien, one gets the impression that Thingol does not think that Beren is her equal and therefore not worthy of her. But then we see that Beren proves himself by his great deeds, achieving things far beyond what any Elf had achieved (with the exception of Luthien herself) when they manage to wrest the Simaril from Morgoth. And in the final battles of the Third Age, one could argue that Aragorn achieved more than any other, with the possible exception of Gandalf and Frodo. Certainly more than any of the High Elves achieved. So I wonder if this isn't Tolkien supporting the lowly mortals here, perhaps showing that the High Elves were a bit prone to overestimating their own value??

With Elrond, one suspects that he foresaw what Aragorn was going to achieve and regretted primarily the loss of his daughter. Otherwise, one gets the impression that the high Elven women (Arwen, Galadriel, and earlier Luthien) have the clearest sight in this regard, seeing more clearly what these mortals can and will achieve...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

One would have thought that Elrond and Elros initially started as equals and the choice of mortality by Elros was not any reflection of his inferiority. Now one could argue of course that the Numenorean race had dwindled considerably--certainly their life span was lessened, and they made some very big mistakes that brought the ruin of Numenor, so perhaps this is what Elrond in mind

Perhaps when making that statement about Arwen's lineage being greater,
Elrond was simply taking into account the fact that Galadriel's (and thus, Finarfin's) blood ran through her veins as well as what she had received from Elrond. That would seem to possibly give her an edge on 'lineage'.

[Lindale]

the High Elves were a bit prone to overestimating their own value??

Agreed. From the "high" altitude of the previously-glorious Elves in Middle Earth they tend to forget that their glory is in the past. Their fate is to fade, if they stayed in ME, which happens in the timeframe of LotR, in a way: they fence themselves in their lands, content in living their past glories and their unchanging beauty over and over again, ever fearful of the time when they will have to give way to Men. I speak here of Elves in general during the Third Age; even Gondorians share the Rohirrim's fear of Galadriel.

In the First Age, however, the Elves must have divided thoughts on Men. On one hand, we have the likes of Finrod Felagund who beholds Men with wonder, and later Maedhros and his brothers who would trust the Easterlings and get betrayed. The common factor here now, apart that all of them are High Elves, is that both suffered losses: Finrod his life, by aiding Beren (noble, isn't it?); and the sons of Feanor the Nirnaeth. On the other hand, we have the likes of pre-Silmaril Thingol and Saeros (both Grey-Elves now) who thought Men were, in Thingol's words, "baseborn." Thingol later repents, because he personally beholds Beren's heroism, but Saeros, who is envious and vain to the end, never does.

Does the fact that Finrod et al are Noldor and quite culturally different from the Grey Elves have something to do with it? The Noldor and the Sindar are sundered, in ways more than one. But I can think of a group of Grey Elves who are not as hostile as Saeros nor as harsh as Thingol to men: Annael, Tuor's foster-father. To think that Annael adopts Tuor in around the same time Saeros shows contempt to Turin.

Does class/status affect the way Elves think during the First to Third Age? In the Second Age, I think the Elves thought of Men, or at least Numenorean Men, as their mortal equals. It also doesn't hurt that during the first part of the Second Age, Numenoreans are goody-goody. Think Aldarion now. But then later during the fall of Numenor in the time of Ar-Pharazon they see how powerful men can be, when Numenoreans have reached the fullness of their power, and especially egged by a particularly clever Maia. But how about the "uncivilized" Men in the darkness of ME, who make gods out of Numenoreans and Sauron? (In perhaps an off-topic question, did the Numenoreans and Elves think "White Man's Burden" on the men of ME?)

[Inziladun]

When considering the opinions held by First Age Elves of Men, the deciding factor seems to be how much time and how many opportunities the Elves had to observe them. Those who took the trouble to get to know the Edain, such as Felegund and the Sons of Fëanor, saw their worth.

For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little.

UT Of Tuor and His Coming To Gondolin

Ulmo's words to Tuor.

The common denominator among the Man-haters seems to that they were not High Elves. The Green-elves of Ossiriand complained to Felegund very soon after Men appeared there.

'Lord' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways they came, or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.

Silm Of the Coming of Men Into the West

That line about not liking Men because they were 'hunters of beasts' seems highly hypocritical, since there is ample evidence Elves hunted quite a bit themselves.
They were looking for reasons not to like Men. Saeros of Doriath had been of that people, so that might explain his attitude towards Túrin.

On the other hand, the Noldor were quite ready to welcome Men.

Therefore the kings of the three houses of the Noldor, seeing hope of strength in the sons of Men, sent word that any of the Edain that wished might remove and come to dwell among their people.

Silm Of the Coming of Men Into the West

If the Noldor had ulterior motives with their acceptance of the Edain, at least they were willing to give them a place in Beleriandic society.

It seems to me High Elves were less guilty of high-mindedness than either the Sindar or the Avari.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It seems to me High Elves were less guilty of high-mindedness than either the Sindar or the Avari.

Glad you said this, Inziladun! Now that I think of it, maybe the Noldor have no trouble with newcomers because they are newcomers as well, and any force to bolster their own is welcome. But the Sindar think that the newcome-Noldor and Men are eating up their territories.

Is there a chance the Noldor got "excited" by Men because they've been hearing rumors of them from the Valar back when they were in Aman?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Glad you said this, Inziladun! Now that I think of it, maybe the Noldor have no trouble with newcomers because they are newcomers as well, and any force to bolster their own is welcome. But the Sindar think that the newcome-Noldor and Men are eating up their territories.

Overall this does seem to be true. Finrod, as mentioned above, is an early example of a Noldor who ended up giving his life for a man, Beren. And in the contrast between Galadriel and Celeborn, Galadriel seems to have developed more sympathy for Men, although she has the further vision as well.

Anyway, I still think the line of Elrond in particular should be able to appreciate the race of Men given the choice that they were given to choose. And I think it is true, since overall it would be hard to imagine a better supporter of the Dunadan over thousands of years than Elrond...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

So I wonder if this isn't Tolkien supporting the lowly mortals here, perhaps showing that the High Elves were a bit prone to overestimating their own value??

Speculating that Elves may have been somewhat prone to thinking highly of themselves is rather like postulating that the Pope may be of Catholic persuasion, isn't it? Take another resident of Imadris, one Lindir:

What!' cried Bilbo. 'You can't tell which parts were mine, and which were the Dúnadan's?'
'It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals' said the Elf.
'Nonsense, Lindir,' snorted Bilbo. 'If you can't distinguish between a Man and a Hobbit, your judgement is poorer than I imagined. They're as different as peas and apples.'
'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different,' laughed Lindir. `Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business.'

However much it may have been said in jest, this seems to me to be incredibly rude and dismissive, if not downright racist.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Speculating that Elves may have been somewhat prone to thinking highly of themselves is rather like postulating that the Pope may be of Catholic persuasion, isn't it? Take another resident of Imadris, one Lindir:

However much it may have been said in jest, this seems to me to be incredibly rude and dismissive, if not downright racist.

I disagree.

Is it racist not to be intrested in other races/nations/ethnic groups? Not per se.

Would you be able to tell one sheep from another unless you actually spend time studying them? I couldn't and therefor the words of Lindir seems to be meerly truthful.

For a conservative, International Socialists and International Marxist Tendency might seem alike, but to some socialists they seem like night and day.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I disagree.

Is it racist not to be intrested in other races/nations/ethnic groups? Not per se.

Would you be able to tell one sheep from another unless you actually spend time studying them? I couldn't and therefor the words of Lindir seems to be meerly truthful.

For a conservative, International Socialists and International Marxist Tendency might seem alike, but to some socialists they seem like night and day.

That's my leaning also.
I think Lindir's words (and Gildor's similar speech to Frodo) were more an admission of the inability of the Elves ultimately to understand mortals, just as Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits recognised the Elves to be a 'breed apart' due to their immortality.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Is it racist not to be intrested in other races/nations/ethnic groups?

I think that it can be, particularly in the terms in which it is expressed by Lindir. Not only is he is disinterested in mortals, but he admits to being unable to tell them apart. The suggestion, to my mind, is that he considers himself, as an Elf, superior to mortals. They are not worth getting to know. Heck, they are not even worth the bother of spending time to understand their differences. And surely, when a member of one race regards himself as superior to another race as a direct result of the difference between the two races, that is the very definition of racism.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think Lindir's words (and Gildor's similar speech to Frodo) were more an admission of the inability of the Elves ultimately to understand mortals

That may well be true of Gildor (and I am by no means suggesting that all Elves were racist), but I think that Lindir goes further. He is not just saying that he does not understand mortals. He is saying that he does not consider them worth understanding. He has 'other business' which is obviously far more pressing.

Originally Posted by Rune

For a conservative, International Socialists and International Marxist Tendency might seem alike, but to some socialists they seem like night and day.

For a conservative, Internationalist Socialists and International Marxist Tendency are both sorely misguided, just in slightly different ways ...

[Loslote]

Also, just by looking at some of the names the Eldar give to the Edain: Firimar, the sickly ones, comes readily to mind; also the Atani, the Second People. Yes, Atani describes a true aspect of Men, but Firimar doesn't seem to be entirely necessary as a descriptive name.

I think the Eldar naturally felt superior. Their attitude towards the dwarves, for example, was almost always condescending and arrogant. Celeborn disliked them on first sight, going so far as to refuse to pass through Khazad-dum in one version of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does seem natural that this discrimination should apply to Edain as well.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, just by looking at some of the names the Eldar give to the Edain: Firimar, the sickly ones, comes readily to mind; also the Atani, the Second People. Yes, Atani describes a true aspect of Men, but Firimar doesn't seem to be entirely necessary as a descriptive name.

I think the Eldar naturally felt superior. Their attitude towards the dwarves, for example, was almost always condescending and arrogant. Celeborn disliked them on first sight, going so far as to refuse to pass through Khazad-dum in one version of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does seem natural that this discrimination should apply to Edain as well.

Not that I want to defend Celeborn all that much, but at the time of the writing of the LOTR, I believe that Celeborn had been present at the sack of Doriath (later this seems to have changed, with Celeborn perhaps crossing over the mountains before the end of the First Age). As I believe Tolkien himself pointed out in the Unfinished Tales, the Dwarves that populated Khazad-dum had nothing to do with the sack of Doriath, but this could be the explanation for Celeborn's hostility (rightly or wrong, which evidently he had not completely forgotten by the end of the Third Age).

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Not that I want to defend Celeborn all that much, but at the time of the writing of the LOTR, I believe that Celeborn had been present at the sack of Doriath (later this seems to have changed, with Celeborn perhaps crossing over the mountains before the end of the First Age). As I believe Tolkien himself pointed out in the Unfinished Tales, the Dwarves that populated Khazad-dum had nothing to do with the sack of Doriath, but this could be the explanation for Celeborn's hostility (rightly or wrong, which evidently he had not completely forgotten by the end of the Third Age).

Point taken. However, Celeborn was not an isolated case, nor was the sack of Doriath the only cause of Elvish-Dwarven hostility. Eol was considered strange for his love of Dwarves. Most of the Sons of Feanor, if not all, disliked the Dwarves, considering them "unlovely". The Dwarves never liked the Eldar for that reason - they thought them arrogant and rightly believed that the Eldar treated them contemptuously.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Point taken. However, Celeborn was not an isolated case, nor was the sack of Doriath the only cause of Elvish-Dwarven hostility. Eol was considered strange for his love of Dwarves. Most of the Sons of Feanor, if not all, disliked the Dwarves, considering them "unlovely". The Dwarves never liked the Eldar for that reason - they thought them arrogant and rightly believed that the Eldar treated them contemptuously.

Certainly many Elves, especially Avari and Sindar, had no kind words for Dwarves and did not welcome them. The Noldor though, at least, had some things in common with them, and saw value in befriending them. Both they and the Dwarves shared reverence for Aulë, and a love for crafts of their own making.
The Noldor of Eregion appear to have had quite a friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, with profit to both sides.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Certainly many Elves, especially Avari and Sindar, had no kind words for Dwarves and did not welcome them. The Noldor though, at least, had some things in common with them, and saw value in befriending them. Both they and the Dwarves shared reverence for Aulë, and a love for crafts of their own making.
The Noldor of Eregion appear to have had quite a friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, with profit to both sides.

True. I could keep arguing, but as the point has now become one of degrees of hatred, it's kind of moot.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I think that it can be, particularly in the terms in which it is expressed by Lindir. Not only is he is disinterested in mortals, but he admits to being unable to tell them apart. The suggestion, to my mind, is that he considers himself, as an Elf, superior to mortals. They are not worth getting to know. Heck, they are not even worth the bother of spending time to understand their differences. And surely, when a member of one race regards himself as superior to another race as a direct result of the difference between the two races, that is the very definition of racism.

That may well be true of Gildor (and I am by no means suggesting that all Elves were racist), but I think that Lindir goes further. He is not just saying that he does not understand mortals. He is saying that he does not consider them worth understanding. He has 'other business' which is obviously far more pressing.

For a conservative, Internationalist Socialists and International Marxist Tendency are both sorely misguided, just in slightly different ways ...

The main point that I take from this, is that you interpretation the words of Lindir in a way jumps to conclusions.

Yes; he says he cannot tell them appart and yes, he admits that he has other interests. This is not the same as saying "you are inferior", he might be of that observation, but we cannot know.
After all people are allowed to have different interest. . . I for one cannot be bothered to sit down and learn the differences of all the cultures that seem alike to me, I have other stuff I would rather spend my time on.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, just by looking at some of the names the Eldar give to the Edain: Firimar, the sickly ones, comes readily to mind; also the Atani, the Second People. Yes, Atani describes a true aspect of Men, but Firimar doesn't seem to be entirely necessary as a descriptive name.

I think the Eldar naturally felt superior. Their attitude towards the dwarves, for example, was almost always condescending and arrogant. Celeborn disliked them on first sight, going so far as to refuse to pass through Khazad-dum in one version of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does seem natural that this discrimination should apply to Edain as well.

"Atani" - They where the second people.
"Firimar" - Well, it can be a bit condrasending, but they where prone to sickness something the Eldar did not suffer.

I think most of the elves hatred towards dwarves was spawned by their violent clashes in the past, not the other way arround.

I don't know if the elves felt supirior or not, I can sertainly see arguments for it, but I am not completely convinced.

[CSteefel]

While the comments of Lindir are interesting, as several have pointed out, they can be interpreted in several different ways.

More interesting to me are the actions of those Elves when faced with a choice about how to value men. Here we have significant extremes, ranging from Thingol (Beren is not worthy, although this is perhaps understandable given the lack of any Immortal blood) to Elrond (less understandable, since Aragorn is traced back to both his own brother Elros, and to Luthien herself through Elwing), to Finrod, who gave his life to save Beren.

It seems that the Edain were enlisted relatively early in the service of the Noldor, with Tuor's father Huor giving his life to provide a rear guard action to save Turgon, while Hurin was taken into captivity for 30 years or so during the same action. Thingol, in contrast, had little opportunity to appreciate men before Beren (or Hurin) arrived.