Narya and the Shire

[Flame of Anor]

Anyone even notice how it was so hard for Sauron and the Nazgûl to find the Shire, even though Hobbits used to live near the Anduin and Dol Guldur, and all they did was move.

Well i was thinking, since the three elven rings not only give the wielders extra power but also protect their areas: Rivendell is protected by Elrond's ring and Lothlórien was protected by Galadriel's ring, Maybe the Shire is protected by Gandalf's ring.

I mean he really has no place where he actually lives, but he seems to spend alot of time at the Shire, he loves the people there, he thinks the place is beautiful and if there was any place he wanted to protect it would be the Shire because the ring resided there.

Think of it, it's hardly ever been invaded, and it seems to be really hard to find for enemy's.
Also it was only invaded by Saruman after the one ring was destroyed which would have negated Narya's (the Ring of Fire) power and thus made it susceptible to invasion.

[Nogrod]

A nice idea Flame of Anor!

One could look at it that way. If there was a power in the ring to protect a certain place Gandalf could have decided on the Hobbitton - as he had no other clear favourites it seems. Well Thranduil's hall could be a tempting place for protection to compete with the Hobbitton... but anyway, not too far fetched.

Looking at the long calm with the hobbits it might be argued Gandalf's ring did it... but then again in the LotR it's said quite straightforwardly it was the rangers of the North who protected the country even if the inhabitants didn't know it.

[Inziladun]

Hm. Interesting premise. I agree that Vilya and Nenya seem to be actively wielded by Elrond and Galadriel in the defence of their respective abodes. I don't think that was the case with the Shire, however, even if Narya had the potential to provide a similar protection.
Sauron likely had known of the existence of Hobbits before the time of his capture of Gollum, but I doubt he had much more knowledge than that they did exist. He had returned to his stronghold at Dol Guldur around the year 1050 of the Third Age, when the Hobbits still dwelt near the Anduin. He would have been mainly occupied with gathering his strength then, though, and I wouldn't think he would have been able to do much information gathering. At any rate, most of the Hobbits apparently left around 1150, according to the Tale of Years. Therefore it doesn't seem likely he would have had much useful knowledge to aid him in finding the Shire. That's what he hoped to use Gollum for. It's also notable that, as Gandalf told Frodo, until the time of the War of the Ring he seems to have thought Hobbits beneath his notice and of no importance.
As for Gandalf using Narya, my suspicion is that in order to use its power as a means to hide the Shire, Gandalf would have been obliged to reside there, as Elrond and Galadriel did in Rivendell and Lórien. And keep in mind that he didn't know Bilbo's ring was the One until he made the journey to Minas Tirith to read Isildur's Scroll in 3017. When he learned of the Ring's true nature, Gandalf asked the Rangers to guard the Shire. That, plus the general unobtrusiveness of its inhabitants, was the Shire's protection.

[Flame of Anor]

Sauron was busy but for him with all his resources to take so long to find a place, just bewilders me.

The Rangers of the North were a big part of the protection of the Shire, but so were the citizens of Lothlórien and Rivendell to their respective homes, the I'm not saying the rings alone protect the places, they need soldiers or protectors but the rings just kinda ensure that the warriors win.

[Nogrod]

I think one needs to take a longer perspective here.

Defending a place with a Ring means committing one to the place for real I'd suppose (like in the cases of Elrond and Galadriel) as it is not any "instant magic" you can just put into use whenever you wish (like "puff, you're invisible!"). It means also rooting into that place, keeping it there and safeguarding it... and even if Gandalf loved the hobbits why would he have used such an extraordinary gift of the ring to protect the hobbits when there was nothing of interest for anyone there - none even for Gandalf himself until the things stated rolling and he realised the Ring was there - and then it was of course too late to protect Shire as the Nazgûl were already in there as well knowing the same thing...

So any speculation of Narya protecting the Shire should not speak of Bilbo or the master Ring but the decades before it was found... and there I think it would be possible... even if a bit unbelievable asthe Shire's safety can be explained by the remotedness of it and with the guardianship of the rangers more than well...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

An interesting idea. Of course, Sauron had no need or
interest to learn about or find hobbits before Gollum
was tortured, and Saruman had access to the Shire via
spies and purchasing (tobacco) agents early on.

The three rings might indeed be pictured as a sort
of "cloaking agent". Perhaps periodic visits by Gandalf
would be enough to psychologically discourage persons
from visiting it, while allowing for travelers such as dwarves
to pass by. Recall Gloin's and Thorin's contempt for hobbits
in UT:

"What!" cried Gloin. "One of those simpletons down
in the Shire? What use on earth, or under it, could he
possibly be?"

(Thorin) This is not advice, it is foolery! I fail to see
what any Hobbit, good or bad, could do that would repay me
for a day's keep, even if he could be persuaded to start.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Other than those who actively moved through the Shire, it doesn't seem that much anybody in Middle-earth had any significant awareness of their existence. The people of Rohan consider them a legend, the Ents don't even know they exist. I suspect that if some Elves didn't pass through the Shire en route to the Havens, and if the Dwarves did not travel through it, they'd have about as much awareness of them as the Ents or Rohirrim. Hobbits came to Sauron's attention only because of Gollum, and Gollum wasn't going to be much help locating the Shire, since he had never been there, and in his youth before the Ring, they lived in a different area. Moreover, there is in my mind a real question as to how much Sauron had truly "pulled himself together" by the late Third Age. Tolkien tells us he did have a body (not a beautiful one), and his mind was working well enough to focus on matters of war, but without the Ring, was he as strong or as sharp as he had been before?

Well, that's off the original topic. As to a link between the Shire's protection and Narya, I would agree with those who have said that Gandalf would need to reside there for Narya to be effective -- if it could have been effective at all. The power of the Three was in knowledge, understanding, and preservation, and unlike Lothlorien -- which Galadriel was attempting to preserve in a state akin to her memories of Valinor from her youth -- the Shire didn't require such an active intervention to keep it from the natural cycle of fading and dying in ME. The kind of preservation the Shire enjoyed was of a more mundane sort, which the Rangers provided. There did not appear to be anything extraordinary or "magical" in force. I believe that in the appendices, Tolkien says that before the end of the Third Age, it was suspected that two of the Three were in Rivendell and Lothlorien, and that many felt the third was probably with Cirdan at the Havens. I don't recall if he said it (the book is upstairs, and my knees don't care to make the climb at the moment ), but I presume that is because the Havens of the Third Age appear to be largely untroubled by forces of the Enemy. Whatever the case, there is no suspicion, even among those who know of its existence, that the Third is in the Shire. Perhaps Saruman, after he became aware of the fact that Gandalf had been given Narya, thought that he was using it to protect the Shire -- especially after he deduced that the One was there -- but if he did, Tolkien never mentions it.

Now, that went on longer than expected...

[JeffF.]

I don't think Gandalf's ring necessarily provided protection for the Shire. THe Shire was relatively small and the population was small, Eriador alone was an immense area (the distance from the Shire to Morder being equivalent to that between England and Bulgaria) and by the time of the War of the Ring there were few servants Sauron could call upon in these lands.

The most protection seems to have been provided by the Rangers, Dunedain of the North, who Gandalf asked to keep watch on the Shire and whose efforts appear to be the main reason why Sauron's servants could not find it. Sauron also had incomplete information as Unfinished Tales, the Search for the Ring shows, he thought the Shire might be in the Vales of Anduin and possibly withing Galadriel's realm.

[Flame of Anor]

I was just re-reading The Fellowship of the Ring and in the Chapter Many Meetings, when Gandalf is replying to Frodo's questions of Rivendell's protection and Glorfindel's power and Gandalf says:

Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.

This is just speculation but it seems to me that Gandalf is implying that there is an actual POWER at work protecting the Shire of similar but different power to the one protecting Rivendell. This could refer to my aforementioned proposition that Gandalfs ring could be protecting the Shire the same way Elronds ring is protecting Rivendell.

[Flame of Anor]

I should have finished the quote, it continues:

But all such places will soon become islands under siege, if things go on the way they are going. The Dark Lord is putting forth all his strength.

What power could be protecting the Shire enough that when everything else falls it could be one of the last remaining outposts. I mean the Rangers of the North are skilled and very adept but are they really enough power to be able to withstand the Dark Lord for so long when all is failing, and also i doubt they would keep concentration on the Shire that long if everything is going down the crapper, they would most likely focus on their own survival.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

What power could be protecting the Shire enough that when everything else falls it could be one of the last remaining outposts.

Tom Bombadil, perhaps?

[Pitchwife]

Indeed, our beloved enigma in yellow boots was the first thing that came to my mind in my first reading of the passage quoted. Cf Glorfindel in LotR Book II, The Council of Elrond:

'I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'

He also constantly lived close to the Shire, which can't be said of Gandalf.

Anyway, I take Gandalf's words power of another kind to mean a power different from that of the Great Rings, whether Elrond's or his own.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Anyway, I take Gandalf's words power of another kind to mean a power different from that of the Great Rings, whether Elrond's or his own.

That is the key, I think, regarding that quote, and Tom seems to fill the bill admirably. I see nothing else that would be a plausible possibility.

That said, I don't think Tom was the main reason the Shire was so little known to many non-Hobbits. I still think their 'smallness', not merely speaking of physical size, but also their overall lack of involvement in the affairs of Middle-earth prior to the War of the Ring, was the primary reason they 'flew under the radar' for so long.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I don't think we really need anything other than distance and the presence of an ongoing war to explain why it took Sauron a while to find the Shire. Mordor and Hobbiton are about as far apart as Oxford and Zagreb, and with the information he had Sauron only knew that the Shire was somewhere west of the Misty Mountains, which meant he had to scour a chunk of landmass the equivalent of western Europe with extremely limited resources... Sure he had armies at home but he can't rely on them (orcs marching around the West asking for the Shire is going to tip the other guys off...and not be terribly effective).

So he has some spies and the Nazgul and with them alone he has to find a place that even his closest neighbours (who are his enemies and unlikely to tell him) barely believe in!

Imagine being told the name of a single county (or canton, or province, or whatever) somewhere between the Atlantic Ocean, the Arctic Circle, the Mediterranean and Poland and now you have to find it with a handful of spies on horseback (if you're lucky) who have to ride all the way back to you at the Black Sea to report on their progress. I'm surprised he found it at all!

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...it has always seemed to me a stunning inconsistency (one of hundreds) that the WitchKing was unaware of the Shire prior to Gollum's interrogation. War between the Dunedain and Angmar lasted centuries, and a contingent of Hobbitish archers even went to battle. The armies of the Angmarrim swept across Eriador on several occasions while the Shire was in existance (the Hobbits migrated from Bree under a grant of land beyond the Baranduin by King Argeleb II in TA 1601, whereas the WitchKing wasn't fully defeated until the Battle of Fornost in TA 1975 -- almost 400 years). So much for geographical knowledge in a general of the WitchKing's caliber. *Shrugs*

There seems to be a general obliviousness to the Shire among all powers concerned: Gandalf is witless of the Ring's true character for decades, Saruman only spies on the Shire because he is jealous of Gandalf, and Sauron and the WitchKing haven't the slightest clue of hobbits and the Shire. Perhaps the true power of the Shire lies in its mundanity and worthlessness (after all, Bilbo's mithril shirt is worth many times the value of the Shire). The War of the Ring was lost due to misunderstanding, underestimation and shortsightedness -- the hallmarks of poor leadership -- which is why I always counter arguments that Sauron was more powerful than Morgoth by simply pointing out Sauron's sloppy management style. Morgoth actually won his war against the Eldar and Edain, and was only countered after the fact by the lazy Valar; whereas Sauron, although he won many battles, effectively lost both major wars he took part in.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...it has always seemed to me a stunning inconsistency (one of hundreds) that the WitchKing was unaware of the Shire prior to Gollum's interrogation. War between the Dunedain and Angmar lasted centuries, and a contingent of Hobbitish archers even went to battle. The armies of the Angmarrim swept across Eriador on several occasions while the Shire was in existance (the Hobbits migrated from Bree under a grant of land beyond the Baranduin by King Argeleb II in TA 1601, whereas the WitchKing wasn't fully defeated until the Battle of Fornost in TA 1975 -- almost 400 years). So much for geographical knowledge in a general of the WitchKing's caliber. *Shrugs*

The Witch King still knew far more about Arnor geography than say Boromir:

The Hunt for the Ring, Marquette MSS 4/2/33, notes that 'the Witch-King ... had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gorthad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself. Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Rivendell, he saw also that Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. - Unfinished Tales, p. 348, RC p. 145
[The Witch-king] is uncertain what to do. The Bearer seems to be making eastwards, he is therefore surely bound for Rivendell (not the Havens). He would have naturally used the East Road; but will he do so, now that he knows he is pursued? Probably he will attempt to escape from the Shire at some unexpected point, through the Old Forest and the Downs, and there make cross-country to strike the Road beyond Weathertop, maybe. In that direction [he] now sends out [three Riders] separately, with orders to reassemble just east of Weathertop, and then return towards Bree along or near the Road. -RC, p164

You see, the WK knew the course of the East Road and the Greenway, the approximate position of Rivendell, the sites of Weathertop and Bree, the Barrow-Downs, the Old Forest.

What he didn't know was that there were a lot of halflings in Bree, that beyond the Baranduin there was a land populated by halflings and that the name of that land was "the Shire."

Now, it seems that the WK might have personally visited Barrow-Downs region and Bree only once - in 1409, when Cardolan had been ravaged and there was fighting around the Barrows and the Old Forest. But at this time there were yet no halflings in the region, likely none even in Bree. The Shire would be founded only 200 years later.

After the war of 1409, Angmar was subdued for a long time, so the WK remained in Carn-Dum (a long way from the Shire) until the war of 1974. At this time the Angmarians seemed to advance very swiftly from Carn-Dum directly on Fornost. The Shire was left completely out of the way.

Then we know that the WK had captured Fornost and "he was now dwelling, it is said, in Fornost, which he had filled with evil folk, usurping the house and rule of the kings." His rule of Arnor lasted most likely only a few months, so it seems he had no time to take a good tally of the conquered lands. Likely the Witch-Kng found all the records of Fornost destroyed, as the city had been ruined (it was known afterwards as "Deadmen's Dyke"). Probably the Shire was even not in the records. as the hobbits neither paid tribute/ taxes to Kings at Fornost, nor were they obliged to serve in the army. And indeed we can read in the Prologue:

At once the western Hobbits fell in love with their new land, and they remained there, and soon passed once more out of the history of Men and of Elves.

If some Angmarian troops ventured in the Shire, the hobbits most likely hid themselves.

As for the name of "the Shire", it was a local name, given by the hobbits themselves:

The Hobbits named it the Shire, as the region of the authority of their Thain, and a district of well-ordered business; and there in that pleasant comer of the world they plied their well-ordered business of living, and they heeded less and less the world outside where dark things moved, until they came to think that peace and plenty were the rule in Middle-earth and the right of all sensible folk.

So, maybe even in the records of the late Arnor the Shire was mentioned under another name, thus the WK had no way to learn about "the Shire" back in 1974-75.

As for the hobbit archers... Hmm... look at the quote:

To the last battle at Fornost with the Witch-lord of Angmar they sent some bowmen to the aid of the king, or so they maintained, though no tales of Men record it.

Nobody noticed them...neither Men, nor Elves and least of all the King of Angmar

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Now, it seems that the WK might have personally visited Barrow-Downs region and Bree only once - in 1409, when Cardolan had been ravaged and there was fighting around the Barrows and the Old Forest.

Was there actual fighting around the Barrowdowns and Old Forest? After the taking of Amon Sûl by the forces of Angmar, it is said that a 'remnant' of the Dúnedain of Cardolan took refuge on the Downs and in the Old Forest, but there is no mention of actual battle there. Indeed, those Dúnedain did not come to an end until the coming of the plague to Eriador, so it seems likely to me the WK and his troops did not even get that close to the Shire.

[Pitchwife]

LotR Appendix B, The Tale of Years:

1409 The Witch-King of Angmar invades Arnor. King Arveleg I slain. Fornost and Tyrn Gorthad are defended.

If the Downs were defended, wouldn't that imply they were under attack?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

If the Downs were defended, wouldn't that imply they were under attack?

Nice catch. There's something to be said sometimes for not relying on memory alone when posting.
Still, that appears to be as close as the invaders ever got to entering the Shire.

It is said that Angmar was for a time subdued by the Elvenfolk coming from Lindon; and from Rivendell, for Elrond brought help over the Mountains out of Lórien.

Appendix A

Those actions by the Elves drove the forces of Angmar away before they could invade the Shire, so I think it is still feasible neither the WK or his armies ever saw a hobbit.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Those actions by the Elves drove the forces of Angmar away before they could invade the Shire, so I think it is still feasible neither the WK or his armies ever saw a hobbit.

The forces of Angmar couldn't invade the Shire back in 1409, because the Shire didn't yet exist. The hobbits settled there about 200 years later in 1600.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

LotR Appendix B, The Tale of Years:
If the Downs were defended, wouldn't that imply they were under attack?

Certainly. And there is also a clearer quote:

A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.-App A

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The forces of Angmar couldn't invade the Shire back in 1409, because the Shire didn't yet exist. The hobbits settled there about 200 years later in 1600.

In that case, 'feasible' would seem to progress to 'nearly certain'.