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01-09-2009, 05:20 PM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norway
Posts: 65
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hin or chin?
I just noticed that CT refers to the Children of Hurin as Narn i hin Hurin in Silm and UT, but as Narn i chin Hurin in CoH. Do you think it was an unintentional typo? Or might there be several ways to write the word?
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01-09-2009, 05:33 PM | #2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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As far as I recall, I believe the idea was that it is supposed to be chin, only later Christopher (or the Prof himself already? I don't know) decided that it is better to write it as hin, because English speakers might pronounce "chin" indeed as "ch", like, as in "charm" (or "chin" ). While it is supposed to be more like the ch as in, umm, well, Khand
(If somebody can help with more information and with better examples, please do so )
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01-09-2009, 05:34 PM | #3 | |
Playful Ghoul
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Quote:
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01-09-2009, 05:42 PM | #4 | |
Playful Ghoul
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Another site says:
Quote:
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01-09-2009, 05:44 PM | #5 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norway
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So what you're saying is that hin is supposed to be pronounced as if there's a K in front of it? I never knew :|
I suppose this is why CT added the 'note on pronunciation' in CoH. Last edited by Vaine; 01-09-2009 at 05:52 PM. |
01-09-2009, 05:51 PM | #6 |
Playful Ghoul
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Yes, that's right. I think the pronunciation is "Narn ee kheen Hoorin".
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"Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green." Last edited by Beregond; 01-09-2009 at 06:20 PM. |
01-09-2009, 06:10 PM | #7 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Hmph. Well, does anybody know what is ch pronounced in, let's say, Latin? Or if you know any other language where it is. Words that come from different languages, and having ch in them, are anyway pronounced differently in English... Like, chalcedone. It is not supposed to be really k. But quite close to it. Well, how do you pronounce for example Marach, anyway? That's what it is.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
01-09-2009, 06:17 PM | #8 |
Playful Ghoul
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Ontario, Canada
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It's not as simple as "Mare-ahk" with a hard K, is it? I picture the "ch" as having more (how can I explain?) character to it? I can hear it in my head but I can't pronounce it properly myself. I don't think it's a sound from English - more like German. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, the pronunciation guide in Children of Hurin says CH has the same value as Scottish loch or German buch.
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"Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green." Last edited by Beregond; 01-09-2009 at 06:21 PM. |
01-09-2009, 11:10 PM | #9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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It's like the sound in German Bach (as already noted).
Quote:
hên 'child' hîn 'children', but the plural article triggers a mutation here > i·Chîn 'the children'. |
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01-10-2009, 02:58 AM | #10 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norway
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Quote:
I am norwegian and can pretty much figure how chin i supposed to sound. ( As C is always pronounced K in norwegian, U is always 'OO' etc etc) After all, Tolkien got alot of inspiration from scandinavian. |
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01-10-2009, 07:18 AM | #11 |
Woman of Secret Shadow
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If it was supposed to pronounce as K, why didn't Christopher change it to Khîn instead of Hîn? C was always pronounced as K in Elvish, but ch was a phone of its own.
I remember reading somewhere that at the end of the word ch pronounces as in German, and at the beginning rather just as H.
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01-10-2009, 08:48 AM | #12 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
Also, JRRT notes that Rohan and Rohirrim represent Gondorian pronunciation. In Sindarin proper the words are Rochan(d) and Rochirrim for example (S. roch 'horse'). Gondorians weakened this sound to h in certain circumstances (as noted in Appendix E) and some altered word final ch to k (as noted in Unfinished Tales). Some Gondorians said Rohan for S. Rochan and Ork for S. Orch. Last edited by Galin; 01-11-2009 at 10:00 AM. |
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01-20-2009, 08:19 AM | #13 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Quote:
CT disagreed at the time (note that on The Map it was still "Kirith Ungol"), being perhaps more realistic, and years later in his own pronunciation guide emphasized "not Seleborn." But he wasn't going to violate the Rule. *This rule didn't apply to certain names associated with the Valar: Tulkas, Melkor. This internally Tolkien explained (very late) as being because these names weren't Eldarin, but Elvish approximations of Valarin (tho' there's no justification in tengwar for the distinction!)- but externally, of course, because these early names belong to the foundational, Finnish-based layer, K being common in Finnish.
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