the Other Orders...

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

hey guys
is it possible that Tolkien would leave an opening for additions to his work when he says in the Valaquenta (speaking in reference to the Aratar)," In majesty, they are peers, beyond compare of any others of the Valar, Maiar, or any other order that Eru has sent into Ea"? what i mean is, a statement like that leaves it open to the possibility of their being other types of spiritual beings not spoken directly about in the official Tolkien Canons (LoTR, Silm, The Hobbit). maybe these Orders are actively working upon our affairs in the modern Age....and perhaps these Other orders have their own representatives or "Istari" at work today!
hope i am being understood, and hope that i am not coming across presumptuous either

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Eäralda Halatiriva

maybe these Orders are actively working upon our affairs in the modern Age....and perhaps these Other orders have their own representatives or "Istari" at work today!
hope i am being understood, and hope that i am not coming across presumptuous either

After the Ringbearers leave at the end of the 3rd Age/beginning of the 4th Age, Tolkien is fairly implicit that the Age of Man, and men's governance over Arda, would preclude direct intervention from Eru or the Valar; ergo, since we are at the end of the 6th Age/Start of the 7th presently, it seems highly unlikely that any corporeal manifestation of a Maiaric or lesser order Ainur is lurking about. In any case, they aren't doing very well if they are here.

And welcome to the Downs, where presumption is our middle name.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

and the thoughtful answer. but i still wish to know if the Other Orders exist given this previous quote in the Valaquenta i think that the evils of our Age still have their part in the overall Music, and its playing out to the Great End - this is the Will of the One...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Eäralda Halatiriva

and the thoughtful answer. but i still wish to know if the Other Orders exist given this previous quote in the Valaquenta i think that the evils of our Age still have their part in the overall Music, and its playing out to the Great End - this is the Will of the One...

*Raises an eyebrow incredulously*

You are aware we are talking about novels and not scripture? You are? Good!

If you take the Istari for instance, it is said that the five are the 'greatest of their order'. Does this then mean there were more than five sent? We just don't know, as this is one of the four thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire. And though the holes were rather small, we've had to count them all. Now we know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.

Ummm...sorry, started to drift. It's all conjecture, really, as there is nothing concrete regarding other orders in HoMe or elswhere.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

*Raises an eyebrow incredulously*

You are aware we are talking about novels and not scripture? You are? Good!

Oh gosh, Morthoron, of course he/she is talking within the Tolkien universe. Illuvatar was the "one" he was talking about, and there was to be a great end in Tolkien's work. By the way, welcome to the Downs Eäralda Halatiriva (nice screenname).

I'm going to see if I can find anything on the subject. Tolkien did begin writing another novel after The Lord of the Rings but stopped after he thought that the sacrifices made in LotR would then all be in vain. I think that there was a mention of some type of wizard.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eäralda Halatiriva

hey guys
is it possible that Tolkien would leave an opening for additions to his work when he says in the Valaquenta (speaking in reference to the Aratar)," In majesty, they are peers, beyond compare of any others of the Valar, Maiar, or any other order that Eru has sent into Ea"? what i mean is, a statement like that leaves it open to the possibility of their being other types of spiritual beings not spoken directly about in the official Tolkien Canons (LoTR, Silm, The Hobbit). maybe these Orders are actively working upon our affairs in the modern Age....and perhaps these Other orders have their own representatives or "Istari" at work today!
hope i am being understood, and hope that i am not coming across presumptuous either

I would take the word 'order' in context there as possibly referring to the other created beings that existed; Elves, Men, Dwarves etc., not necessarily 'angelic' beings like the Valar.
Also, I think Morthoron is correct in saying that the Istari were the 'last hurrah' for direct physical action by the Valar in affecting the events of Middle-earth. They were sent for one purpose: to defeat Sauron, a physical incarnation of evil too great for the lesser beings to overcome. Sauron was the last of that breed, so there would really be no justification for further intervention along the lines of the Istari.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Eäralda Halatiriva

hey guys
is it possible that Tolkien would leave an opening for additions to his work when he says in the Valaquenta (speaking in reference to the Aratar)," In majesty, they are peers, beyond compare of any others of the Valar, Maiar, or any other order that Eru has sent into Ea"? what i mean is, a statement like that leaves it open to the possibility of their being other types of spiritual beings not spoken directly about in the official Tolkien Canons (LoTR, Silm, The Hobbit). maybe these Orders are actively working upon our affairs in the modern Age....and perhaps these Other orders have their own representatives or "Istari" at work today!
hope i am being understood, and hope that i am not coming across presumptuous either

Yes it does leave open interesting speculative possibilities - but who knows what they might be?! It's another of those things which Tolkien left fuzzy and open - it gives us an impression of greater, wider things which we aren't told about, and helps to make his creation the magical thing that it is....

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

your screen name is cool, Groin Redbeard - do you live up to it in real time? and Lalwendë, i already sensed the depth and wisdom of your Thought across several of your posts here, even before i became a member. thank you for taking the time to respond to my query!
Almién
Eäralda