Would Gandalf ever discipline Hobbits?

This might sound like an odd question, but Gandalf did, at times of great need, man handle (or should I say, Hobbit handle) Sam when he was caught eaves dropping. Likewise, gollum was pressed with the fear of fire in order to get some news out of him. Bilbo & Butterbur were a whisker away from getting the same treatment.

So would Gandalf ever beat a hobbit in the event of sheer anger and frustration, much to the likes of the ill-tempered Farmer Maggot?

[Morthoron]

No.

[Inziladun]

Though impatient with those who displayed foolishness (understandably, considering the deadly seriousness of his business), I don't see Gandalf ever physically punishing any creature out of frustration or anger. He didn't hurt Pippin when he gave away the presence of the Nine Walkers in Moria, or when he nearly brought ruin on them all with his use of the Palantír of Orthanc.
Saying he thought of "roasting (Butturbur) over a slow fire" is hardly the same as doing it.
As for Gollum, Gandalf only threatened him with fire, and did not actually harm him.
In Bilbo's case, Gandalf had to do something to get Bilbo's attention, before the Ring gained too much of a hold for him to be able to let it go.
Gandalf always knew where to draw the line, and so avoided becoming like Sauron or Saruman, who, I'm sure, had no compunction as regards to venting their displeasure on their slaves.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No.

Could you go into a bit more detail if possible? Just saying no does not meet the high standard responses the Barrow-Downs is renowned for.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Could you go into a bit more detail if possible? Just saying no does not meet the high standard responses the Barrow-Downs is renowned for.

I don't believe the question warranted any further response. Gandalf's character is evident to anyone who has read LotR. He may bluster, he may cajole, he may even threaten, but never does he use violence against those weaker than him in a non-battle situation, particularly against Halflings (and I would include Gollum in that definition). As a matter of fact, he specifically eschewed violence against Gollum (the 'mercy' speech to Frodo), and Saruman.

Again, the question seemed a bit flippant and unnecessary, given the extraordinary length of discussions regarding Gandalf's compassion and mercy on these forums. For further discussion, I refer you to Inziladun's post, which seems to cover all the necessary points quite admirably.

There is really nothing further to discuss. *shrugs*

[Folwren]

I would say likely not - probably for the same reasons that Inziladun stated. The examples of his handling of Pippin in Moria and after the incident with the Palantir are good examples of what he'd likely do in a case of 'anger and frustration'. These two occasions, wherein Pippin acted out of foolish curiosity and without any maturity or self-control, are likely the most deservant of any sort of beating, and yet Gandalf did not. In Moria, he did reward Pippin for his actions by making him stand first watch - and when doing so, let him know that he was displeased with him.

Gandalf is probably wise enough to realize that such punishment would not really be effective. Spanking/beating anyone never does any good if done in a temper. Often times, I've noticed, he was mainly angry because he was frightened. In any other situation, I imagine he'd be amused.

I think his idea was 'the punishment shall fit the crime.' So...Pippin was badly, badly frightened when he looked at the palantir. He learned his lesson, enough said. Pippin caused the Fellowship's presence to be made known in Moria, so he stands first watch to be haunted by his own fears. Sam eavesdropped on Frodo and Gandalf while talking about important matters that had to be kept secret, so he has to go with Frodo to make sure he doesn't talk!

[Boromir88]

I think Inziladun has covered the question very well, but another marker to judge a person's character is from other characters:

"Yes I do know him: the only wizard that really cares about trees," said Treebeard...~Treebeard

"I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood," said Faramir.

"Were I as hasty as you, I might have slain you long ago. For I am commanded to slay all whome I find in this land without the leave of the Lord of Gondor. But I do not slay man or beast needlessly, and not gladly even when it is needed. Neither do I talk in vain. So be comfoted. Sit by your master, and be silent!"~The Window on the West

"You have my pity," said Theoden. "And I do not send you from my side. I go myself to war with my men. I bid you come with me and prove your faith."~King of the Golden Hall

All these people trusted, learned from, or were in some way counselled by Gandalf. They don't sound like the hot tempered, beating type.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

No.

I fear you have been seduced by the Dark Side
( i. e., the ROTK movie with the absurd,
and against the strictures of the Valar)
Gandalf assaulting The Steward of Gondor.

[Inziladun]

I fear you have been seduced by the Dark Side
( i. e., the ROTK movie with the absurd,
and against the strictures of the Valar)
Gandalf assaulting The Steward of Gondor.

That was in the movie? As if I needed another reason to dislike them.
I think Mansun was referring to the books, though. There has been no mention until now of Gandalf doing anything to Denethor.

Boromir88: You made a good point. The influences one exhibits on others can be as telling a measure of one as one's overt acts. All those who knew Gandalf well, listened to him, and took his counsel were ennobled by him. There is no mention of anyone being a one time student of his and later falling into evil.
Not to say G. was perfect. He had his faults, chiefly, (as he himself acknowledged), the perilous desire of greater strength and power to accomplish his mission.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Would Gandalf ever physically assault a Hobbit?
Yes. He probably would. The man has a horrible temper. Sure, this is outshined by his sage advice and bravery but he doesn't suffer fools gladly.
I can easily imagine a scenario in which he may get carried away. He acts from the heart, not his head.

[Aaron]

Originally Posted by Gothbogg the Ripper

Would Gandalf ever physically assault a Hobbit?
Yes. He probably would. The man has a horrible temper. Sure, this is outshined by his sage advice and bravery but he doesn't suffer fools gladly.
I can easily imagine a scenario in which he may get carried away. He acts from the heart, not his head.

What world are you living in? Gandalf doesn't really get carried away, he's the embodiment of veiled power. He had many times in which he could have gone totally nutso and yet he retains his composure throughout a great deal of the books.
So no, he wouldn't ever beat up a Hobbit. Probaby because he never thought himself massively superior to them.

[Legolas]

Moving this over to 'Novices & Newcomers' - seems like a question anyone can respond to, and there's no real textual evidence that can be provided.

Unless that chapter was removed from my copies.

[Rumil]

Weeellll,

I'm tempted to say yes (more or less)...

It's shown that Gandalf did 'discipline' hobbits as he made Pippin sit the first watch in Moria as a punishment for foolishness. This does not mean physical chastisement however.

Would Gandalf beat a hobbit black and blue with a stout stick (staff) out of anger? Of course not, he's not that sort of a Maia.

Is there a possible (but unlikely) situation where Gandalf would physically discipline a hobbit? Naturally speculation but...

-A slap on the hand to a hobbit child or 'tween filching fireworks or trying to pick up Glamdring could be possible, more for the child's safety than anything else. Before the days of PC-ness such a thing would likely pass without comment. If I remember in the film G twists Merry and Pippins' ears a bit when he catches them at the fireworks and this seems unremarkable, but technically counts!

I guess that hobbits would use some mild corporal punishment on their children, but if such 'formal' punishment was deserved, then it would be the parents' responsibility, not Gandalf's.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Weeellll,

I'm tempted to say yes (more or less)...

It's shown that Gandalf did 'discipline' hobbits as he made Pippin sit the first watch in Moria as a punishment for foolishness. This does not mean physical chastisement however.

Would Gandalf beat a hobbit black and blue with a stout stick (staff) out of anger? Of course not, he's not that sort of a Maia.

But that is the actual question asked in the first post– very specific: "So would Gandalf ever beat a hobbit in the event of sheer anger and frustration?" (my italics).

An act motivated purely by anger is not "discipline" by definition, unless you're using the word as a euphemism. So the thread title and the explanation in the first post are in contradiction.

[Elmo]

The hobbits were small not children. A common mistake to make, I believe Boromir and Denethor made the same. Why not ask the question would he have beaten Boromir or Gimli or even Aragorn as they were adults as well. Would Gandalf have picked on the hobbits just because they were small?

[Kitanna]

No, never. Gandalf would never let his anger get so out of control. EVER.

[Morthoron]

If ever a Hobbit Gandalf struck,
That would be news to me.
So many characters pressed their luck,
Like ol' Butterbur in Bree,
Or silly Pippin in Moria's mine --
He certainly deserved a beating.
Yet Gandalf merely spoke his mind --
violence being self-defeating.
With Gollum he was very rough,
But always, Gandalf did restrain.
And so with this topic I've had enough,
The question was inane.

[Andsigil]

I'm sorry, I'm just really surprised that this question is still being debated at all.

How about some ideas for other threads:

Would Gandalf prefer Dorwinion wine over Bree ale?

If Gandalf had found Tuor's axe instead of Glamdring, would he have used it?

If Sauron had challenged Gandalf to an arm wrestling match to decide the fate of Middle Earth, would Gandalf had taken the challenge? What if it was a riddle contest, instead?

[alatar]

No.

[alatar]

I actually liked the original title to this thread, as when I first read it, I thought that it asked if Gandalf would ever eat hobbits, which I thought had some support, as Gandalf had no problem egging on Bert, Tom and Bill with cannibal culinary advice. I also thought the thread title could be mischievously misinterpretted to mean that Gandalf could beat them in basketball.

That said, in regards to Gandalf physically disciplining the hobbits, we find no evidence in the text that he would so such a thing. He just barks a lot, unless it's orcs or other beasties, then he kills them. No cudgeling some errant orc - swoop, and off with its head.

Peter Jackson and his crew, on the other hand, found ample evidence of Gandalf physically disciplining hobbits, yanking Pippin's and Merry's ears, dragging poor Sam through the window (and using the word "verge" ). He later takes to smacking royalty, finding that just as entertaining (i.e. Theoden the Possessed, and Denethor the Flaming).

So, again in answer, 'No.'

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

I actually liked the original title to this thread, as when I first read it, I thought that it asked if Gandalf would ever eat hobbits, which I thought had some support, as Gandalf had no problem egging on Bert, Tom and Bill with cannibal culinary advice.

alatar, I think that's an excellent idea for a thread!

[Lalwendë]

Gandalf can be fabulously grumpy, if I was to look for his 'character failings' I'd say having a tendency to be sarcastic and a bit 'short' could be one of them. He is what my grandad would have termed ornery. Maybe this was Tolkien writing the effects of lack of nicotine to the smoker into his story?

But he'd never hit a Hobbit! For one, they aren't children but people and Gandalf recognised this more than most (I dread to think what might have happened had The Shire been closer to Rohan, after the Rohirrim record with hunting the Woses ). What Authority would Gandalf have to do such a thing?! And that's laying aside his personality.

I think the films have led people astray somewhat...

[Nerwen]

Hey, children are people too, you know!

[Selmo]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

What Authority would Gandalf have to do such a thing?

Gandalf always seemed to be careful about claiming any sort of authority over anyone. For example, when he confronted Wormtongue he wasn't very nice to him but he didn't hand out any punishment; that authority belonged to King Theoden.

The only time we see Gandalf punish anyone directly is the occasion when he dismissed Saruman from the Order of Wizards, broke his staff and made him crawl away, humilliated. As Gandalf the White, he had the authority to do that. He had no authority over anyone else.

.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hey, children are people too, you know!

I ought to know that really, hadn't I?

Originally Posted by Selmo

Gandalf always seemed to be careful about claiming any sort of authority over anyone. For example, when he confronted Wormtongue he wasn't very nice to him but he didn't hand out any punishment; that authority belonged to King Theoden.

The only time we see Gandalf punish anyone directly is the occasion when he dismissed Saruman from the Order of Wizards, broke his staff and made him crawl away, humilliated. As Gandalf the White, he had the authority to do that. He had no authority over anyone else.

Very good point! Plus as you point out, Gandalf's level of Authority changes as the story moves on, but it never includes belting Hobbits! I don't think the Valar would have looked kindly on him doing that either. He's only supposed to advise, not to force.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hey, children are people too, you know!

Not all of them... there are quite a lot of orclings alas

Originally Posted by Morthoron

If ever a Hobbit Gandalf struck,
That would be news to me.
So many characters pressed their luck,
Like ol' Butterbur in Bree,
Or silly Pippin in Moria's mine --
He certainly deserved a beating.
Yet Gandalf merely spoke his mind --
violence being self-defeating.
With Gollum he was very rough,
But always, Gandalf did restrain.
And so with this topic I've had enough,
The question was inane.

We are not talking about Hobbits being bludgeoned to death by Gandalf's staff, just a clip on the ear or two, and words to that affect. Tolkein clearly saw Gandalf as a means of disciplining Hobbits where required. Your riddle and though process above reminds me a lot of Gollum, by the way.

[Strongbow]

I would like to put in that I do not think Gandalf would physically chastize a hobbit. The majority of hobbits have a good deal of base hobbit-sense, and I believe it to be in more in Gandalf's character to appeal in plain terms to this sense, rather than resort to a clip on the ear.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

We are not talking about Hobbits being bludgeoned to death by Gandalf's staff, just a clip on the ear or two, and words to that affect.

Mansun, it is not my fault that you decided to completely change the context of the discussion because your original question proved farcically problematic. This entire dialogue (or lack thereof) hinges on your first emphatic query statement, and I quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

So would Gandalf ever beat a hobbit in the event of sheer anger and frustration, much to the likes of the ill-tempered Farmer Maggot?

Beating out of 'sheer anger and frustration' does not indicate a clip on the ear, at least not by any common definition. In any case, the answer remains an unequivocal NO. Again, as has been brought up several times in this thread, Gandalf was dealing with adult Hobbits, not children. One might as well ask if he would beat Aragorn or Gimli. The entire idea is nonsensical, and I refer you to any of the posts in this thread that have refuted such inanity.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Tolkein clearly saw Gandalf as a means of disciplining Hobbits where required. Your riddle and though process above reminds me a lot of Gollum, by the way.

Gandalf was in a leadership role and was rather short with everyone in the Fellowship (a shortness Gimli commented on in a later chapter). He chided anyone he believed acted stupidly. He did not beat, hit, cuff, thwap, smack or pinch anyone in the Fellowship.

The poem reminds us of Gollum, does it Mansun? How's that, precious? Was it crunchable and scrunchable? Mansun makes no sense, no he don't precious. *gollum*

[Fingolfin II]

In regards to answering Mansun's exact question, whether Gandalf would strike a hobbit out of sheer anger, I think the answer is overwhelmingly no. Though the question was probably based on the books, I agree with those people who think that the movies have resulted in some misconceptions regarding the main characters' willingness to use physical violence (Gandalf dragging Sam, pulling Merry and Pippin's ears; Aragorn killing the Mouth of Sauron, etc.), just as a side point.

In regards to what I think Mansun meant - would Gandalf use violence (the clip on the ear, tap on the wrist type) to discipline hobbits - I think he might, but only in the context described by Rumil: if someone else's safety was at stake. However, such hypothetical physical discipline wouldn't be permanently disabling (obviously) or borne out of 'sheer anger'. Certainly I can't envisage him swatting someone over the head with his staff just for stealing his pipe.

Though this isn't strictly pertaining to the original topic, I think the idea of hobbits as 'children' is fascinating; certainly I think despite Gandalf knowing best out of everyone that they are not and should be treated as adults, their ignorance regarding the wider world and own self-contained mannerisms certainly echo traits of children you probably wouldn't find in an Aragorn or a Boromir....but I guess that's a topic for another thread...

P.S. It's nice to be back here after a long time

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Your riddle and though process above reminds me a lot of Gollum, by the way.

Uh.... why? It's written in the first person singular, contains verb-subject agreement and doesn't say anything about fish at all.

EDIT: It does mention Gollum, though. Perhaps that's why it made you think of him.

[Kitanna]

I do believe this is getting out of hand. If this thread continues as it is I imagine some sort of a virtual rumble will soon follow.

In regards to the exact question Mansun posed

So would Gandalf ever beat a hobbit in the event of sheer anger and frustration, much to the likes of the ill-tempered Farmer Maggot?

No, never.

But would he discipline Hobbits? Of course. But I don't think anything physical, even a clip on the ear would be his style. Chores and standing watch seemed more his speed in disciplining.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Please keep your posts objective and on-topic, people. Personal comments will be deleted without notice, so if you prefer to keep control over your own posts, edit them before I do.

On second thought, I am closing this thread. That last photo was completely out of place and has been deleted.

If anyone has a really important on-topic contribution to make to the thread, please PM me and I *may* consider reopening it.