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11-02-2008, 10:33 PM | #1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Elwe Singollo
So I'm rereading through the Silm for the frillionth time (working on my undergrad thesis ), and I was startled to realize that I absolutely despise Thingol. I can't really place my distaste for him: perhaps it's because of his abandonment of the Teleri (but that was for Melian); perhaps because of the way he treated Beren (though that was to protect Luthien); or because of the way he lusted after a Silmaril (maybe he didn't totally understand the oath of Feanor?).
I hate to start a character analysis thread... but now I'm curious. I almost feel guilty for hating anyone who's not specifically made out to be dark or evil: after all, I don't hate Feanor, and Kinslaying was probably much worse than anything Thingol ever did. But I just can't like Elwe! ... Anyone?
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11-03-2008, 03:55 AM | #2 |
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yeah i kind of agree. he was very horrible to beren, knowing that he was practically sending him to his death by giving him the near impossible task of retrieving a silmaril. however, i think the heroics of beren and luthien changed him. especially when beren and luthien came back from the dead. this can be supported by the fact that he adopted turin as a foster son.
are you doing a thesis on sil?
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11-03-2008, 07:39 AM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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And given the way he not only succomed so easily not just to
the simaril but to an apparent elvish bigotry and seemingly tendency to hold dwarves in contempt (perhaps because he wasn't a Noldo with Aule reverence?) makes him seem somewhat like he wasn't much more then Melian's boy toy. As a ruler, he does seem much less likeable than those of Gondolin or Nargothrond.
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11-03-2008, 09:49 AM | #4 |
shadow of a doubt
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On the contrary, I've always liked Thingol, perhaps more than he deserves. Maybe I like him because he comes across as a bit of a scoundrel in the Silmarillion (not to mention BoLT) which I always felt was a little bit unjust. He was after all a much better ruler for his people than almost any other Elf-lord, keeping Doriath and it's inhabitants free from harm longer than any other Elven King. Sure, you could argue that he was too passive in the war against Morgoth, but he probably figured the whole thing was the Noldor's making in the first place and that there was little he could do except fence himself in (which was true enough). In this he had a lot of help from Melian but that can't be held against him, can it? He can't have been a complete arse either, bagging himself such a bride. In fact, isn't he described as the greatest of all the Children of Illuvatar as some point?
I'm willing to defend him partially in the treatment of Beren too. Look at it from Thingol's perspective. Here comes this ragged but prideful Man, knowing next to nothing about the world and it's secrets; a Man who've walked the earth just a few fleeting, sorrowful moments and is soon to depart again (unlike Luthien who will remain) yet lays claim to his own daughter with haughty words. And what self-importance Beren shows! Thingol makes a cruel joke really when he says he will give his permission the day Beren presents him with a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. He has no actual intention of sending Beren out on a quest to reclaim the Jewel as he knows it's preposterous to even try. What he's saying is Never happen!. To me it's Beren who is the real fool here dragging those he loves out on a hopeless quest. If you want to die for your lover don't take innocent people with you. Later Luthien says, 'forget about the Silmaril and we'll live together in the Woods', but oh no, Beren rather drags her into the deepest pits of Angband than retracts his stubborn and hasty promise, one which already has been the death of Finrod Felagund and all his companions. What a selfish bastard he is! And Thingol is made out to be the fool. Jeez! Thingol in the Silmarillion is tricky though because in the earlier conception of the stories, published in BoLT, he really is a scoundrel, whereas in the later writings, fex what became CoH, he is presented as a very wise and benevolent ruler. This latter more favourable conception of Thingol must have been preferred by Tolkien, but many of the stories concerning him were never rewritten, and still features a rather pathetic Elf-lord. Thingol must therefore have been a big problem for CT when compiling the unified Silmarillion. There are others here that no doubt know much more than I about this though.
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11-03-2008, 12:47 PM | #5 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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I believe the point of the story would be, his noble beginnings, his admirable life, his temptation to always preserve (Tolkien called it embalming) that which he loved, denying it permission to change or grow; hence his denial that Luthien would be permitted to leave him (would he have let her marry anyone at all?) and in the end, with his continuing stubbornness, even disregarding the advice of his wife the Maia, leading ultimately to his final fall from grace, and so to his death.
"Lo, how the mighty have fallen."
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11-03-2008, 02:23 PM | #6 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Thingol suffers from the same overweaning pride that affected many 1st Age Elves (take your pick, Feanor, Celegorm, Caranthir, Turgon, Eol, et al.). These were not sweet Legolas Mary-Sue Elves, but Eldar or First Born who had been slicing up Orcs (and sometimes other Elves) for a few centuries. They were haughty because they were indeed superior and they knew it
Take Thingol, for instance. He is born in Cuivienen before the sun or moon are even in orbit, he is chosen to be spokesman of his clan, he travels to Valinor, returns to become king of the Sindar in the great realm of Doriath, marries Melian the Maia, and his child is the most beautiful creature in all creation. Think about it, how do you even dare speak to someone like that if you are a mere mortal? I am not saying ol' Thingol didn't need a major attitude adjustment, but you have to take his actions into context.
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11-03-2008, 05:53 PM | #7 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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In which I am surprised this thread didn't fail
Yes. Specifically, the idea of mythology versus legend versus history in the Silm.
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I honestly can't remember the first point at which Thingol learns about the Oath of Feanor and the Kinslaying. Because if he knew about that oath, why on earth would he have had Beren go after the Silmaril? The Silm specifically states that when he pronounced Beren's mission, Thingol "wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared in the curse of Mandos." And his possession of the Silmaril, later on (which killed him), when he certainly knows about the oath, just seems petty and greedy, to me. Quote:
My only argument: in my mind, Thingol is just as far below Melian as Beren is below Luthien. Beren is described as the greatest Man who ever walked in Middlearth, and Thingol as the greatest Elf, save perhaps Feanor: that description is somewhere, skip spence, I know what you're referring to but can't find it. Yet while he scorns Beren's love for his daughter, many eons before, Thingol thought nothing of abandoning the entire host of the Teleri to romp in Doriath with Melian. (Okay, so that's a bit vulgar: they actually just stood there for a very long time with the stars wheeling overhead, then settled in Doriath.) He quite literally left the Teleri to his brother, and many of them missed the ships going to Valinor as they continued to search for him! That, to me, is one of his most inexcusable actions, regardless of whether or not it was the will of the Valar for them to wed and protect Doriath. Mmphm.
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11-03-2008, 08:28 PM | #8 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I don't think it was the will of the Valar that Melian left to wed Thingol. She left the Gardens of Lorien without any adios: Quote:
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11-03-2008, 10:20 PM | #9 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
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Lindale:
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skip spence: Quote:
skip spence: Quote:
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11-04-2008, 09:13 AM | #10 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A) None save Finrod (still named Inglor here) took counsel with Thingol in the matter of the coming of Men and their dealings with the Noldor. This displeased Thingol. B) Thingol was also troubled with dreams concerning the coming of Men, before even the first tidings of them were heard, arguably setting up his reaction to one of them entering Doriath and desiring his very daughter! C) Elwe proclaimed that into Doriath therefore, no Man should come, commanding that Men should take no lands but in Hithlum and Dorthonion. D) At the request of Finrod, Elwe yet granted land in Brethil to Haleth's people. In the Grey Annals Elwe is still (as in QS) wroth at discovering the news about Beren. Beren had broken his command and also had intentions with his own daughter (as we know). Beren shows him the Ring of Finrod, but Thingol speaks in anger still. Beren, stung by this scorn, swears that no power shall keep him from his love. This, and I think understandably (however noble a cause from Beren's perspective), makes Thingol all the more angry, and: 'But, as Doom would, a thought came into his heart, and he answered in mockery' -- and thus his response to Beren and the Quest of the Silmaril. With respect to The Ruin of Doriath, Christopher Tolkien notes: 'How he (JRRT) would have treated Thingol's behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say'. adding that the conduct of Tinwelint was wholly at variance with the later conception of the King. Though CJRT does note a later text (Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales) wherein it is said that Celeborn, in his view of the destruction of Doriath, ignored Morgoth's part in it 'and Thingol's own faults'. Thingol later softens toward Beren (again, as we know), and of course ultimately Greycloak set young Túrin on his knee, a sign that he was to be fostered (and those that saw this marveled): '... and in all your life you shall be held as my son, Man though you be.' |
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11-04-2008, 09:32 PM | #11 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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After rereading the chapter "Of Thingol and Melian," I know I have to agree about enchantment, Inziladun... perhaps I should be laying the abandonment of the Teleri on the shoulders of the Valar, or perhaps even Melian herself. If Thingol were genuinely enchanted by Melian (which it appears that he was), then we can either assume (a) she deliberately enchanted him, or (b) she herself was also part of the enchantment, and it was the Valar or Iluvatar guiding the enchantment. So either way, it wasn't his fault that he forgot utterly his people. It just grinds at me that of course it has to happen right in the midst of the Great Journey, when his people most need him! Given, he establishes the kingdom of Menegroth, and with the Girdle of Melian protecting Doriath, many of the Teleri are protected from Morgoth for a long time. But those first crucial years, when the Elves' faith in the Valar is just being built up, their great leader leaves them, splitting their host practically in two and keeping many of them from ever seeing the light of the trees. And you're right, Lindale (you've got to be) about fate controlling a lot of what happens in Middlearth. But here's my thing about fate/doom: why does it make anyone less responsible for their actions? When a "high doom" goes before Turin, does it make him less culpable for his slaying of Brandir? I just don't know. I should shut up and let more informed/intelligent people talk.
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11-05-2008, 11:18 AM | #12 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Actually Thingol wasn't that great a king with keeping his people safe, skip spence. It was all Melian's doing with her enchanted girdle that kept Doraith from destruction.
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Beren made the right choice when it came to Thingol haughty and arrogant proposal. If Thingol was really smart when it came to Beren and Luthien he would have just sayed no.
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11-06-2008, 06:33 AM | #13 | |||||
shadow of a doubt
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In further defence of Greycloak
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It was, in other words, a task impossible beyond hope. Now I´m not saying Thingol acted in an exemplary way but, as Galin pointed out, he was quite understandably wroth because of Beren´s prideful words and his, to Thingol, shocking intentions with Luthien, his beloved daughter. Beren the Man was not even allowed to enter the Hidden Kingdom, possibly because Thingol deemed it unwise for the two peoples to mix (which turned out to be true), and for one with such short lifespan and scant wisdom to marry his daughter was out of the question. Quote:
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As for his later refusal to give up the Silmaril to the Fëanorians, I agree that he probably should have done so. Yet, the Silmaril had this power over the owner, and if Thingol is to be blamed for this, so should Luthien, Beren, Dior and even Eönwe Herald of Manwe, who also possessed the Silmaril (or two) and yet refused to hand them over to the sons of Fëanor. Can't you understand old Greycloak's reluctance to hand over the Jewel that Luthien and Beren (whom he now loved) won to the cost of so much suffering, hand it over to the haughty and uncompromising murderers of his kin? I certainly can. And yes, the possession of the Silmaril led to his death, but don't forget, he was murdered in cold blood by the Dwarves which he certainly did not deserve although this part of the story is shady since JRRT never rewrote it to come in accordance to the later legendarium, as Galin explained in his very informative post. CT had to fill out the blanks himself.
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 11-06-2008 at 08:45 AM. |
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11-07-2008, 10:41 AM | #14 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I'll focus mainly on the judgement he makes with Beren and Luthien since besides that (and the matter with the Dwarves) I think he was a good king, though not the best.
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11-07-2008, 11:00 AM | #15 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
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The point about Thingol is that he's not heroic, not by any standard. He was wise, proud, protective of his people, ostensibly well-intentioned, and thoughtful, but not heroic. His death, unlike that of most of the Elven-kings, makes no mention of his greatness: only that he was the last living Elf in Middlearth to have seen the light of the Trees. I hate to marginalize Thingol as a symbol, but... he does a much better job representing the dying ideals of the perfect Middlearth than a progressive movement towards unity between the races of Elves, Men, and Dwarves.
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11-07-2008, 03:16 PM | #16 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The later version of the death of Thingol was never written though, and it was, it appears, possibly to be in a battle → the bare bones (noted by JRRT) seem to be that Thingol was to be lured outside, or induced to go to war beyond his borders, and slain in some manner by Dwarves.
In the very early long prose tale Tinwelint was ambushed while hunting (while resting during a hunt), and Mablung and the King fell side by side after a long bitter fight. Naugladur swept off the king's head after he was dead, for it was said he would not dare to go near Tinwelint's sword nor Mablung's axe (an earlier version states that the King was borne down by numbers and then slain by Naugladur). A direction for a seemingly new detail was that the Nauglafring caught in bushes and held the King. Anyway (alas again) there's no later long prose version of Thingol's death, and even Quenta Silmarillion and the Annals are lacking here with respect to updated material. Last edited by Galin; 11-07-2008 at 04:00 PM. |
11-09-2008, 10:03 PM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Heh. And, besides Galin's new example, um... as I was looking back at "Of the Sindar" I found the short section where Thingol amasses an army and leaves Doriath to come to the aid of Denethor and the Elves of Ossiriand. The text specifically says "Bitterly his fall was avenged, when Thingol came upon the rear of the Orcs and slew them in heaps...." Then, after realizing that Denethor was dead and that there was no more help for the Green-elves, Thingol withdrew his forces to Menegroth and had Melian put out her Girdle to protect Doriath.
Read it whatever way you want (Thingol himself slew heaps of Orcs, or his men did), the suggestion is obvious: Thingol once tried the warlike way, but was too much of a pragmatist to continue it. Going to prove only one thing: I need to read more closely before I post. Kthxbai.
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11-24-2008, 07:55 AM | #18 |
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I believe, at least in the Silm, that Thingol represents somewhat of an opposition to the thinking of the kings of the Noldor. In war the Sindar were considerably less skilled than the Noldor, which can be seen by the state that Beleraind is in when the Noldor first arrive. He knows his forces are no match for the armies of Angband in open war, thus he takes a more conservative approach. It is his prerogative to preserve what he already has, rather than conquest for more (at least until it comes to the Silmaril itself, which I don't think he ever seriously intended to lay hands on.)
Those elf kings most honored of the first age followed his precedent by creating their own Hidden Kingdoms, Gondolin and Nargothrond, the later of which is directly inspired by Menengroth. It's as if Turgon and Felagund thought Thingol (as apposed to the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin) was the wisest of kings, at least so far as defending their people against the coming onslaught of the north. Is the greatness of a king judged wholly by his prowess on the battlefield or the conquest over the enemies of his people, or is his greatness found in his love and defense of his people against strife, and preservation of their culture in the face of invasion (by both the forces of Angband and the Noldor, but also the migration of men?) |
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