4th Age Balrogs?

[Meoshi]

This topic has been mentioned here and there, but it's time it had a discussion of its own:

The silmarillion speaks of "some few" Balrogs who escaped the War of Wrath and the downfall of Thangorodrim, by hiding themselves in the "deep places" of the world. Now, unless I'm mistaken, except for Durin's Bane, no account tells of any of them being found, or better, slain. Were they simply too out of the way(Grey Mountains, for example) to be noticed? Was Durin's Bane truly the last? Or can we not rule out the possibility that, in the fourth age, with no Maiar or Elf-Lords left capable of slaying them, that there could still be some of Melkor's finest troops, lurking somewhere?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

It's possible. At least, one escaped. Even though it said that during the War of Wrath all the Balrogs were destroyed 'utterly', one escaped, so two could have. Of course, with the current number narrowed down to seven, and three dead, that would mean that the Valar only killed two or less.

I think that was the only escapee, the Balrog of Moria. As for other warriors, nobody ever said what happened to the Hunter of Utumno, who ensnared the elves and brought them back to torture so Melkor could twist them over long years into orcs. Also, there were other demons besides them, like werewolves (of which in the third age Sauron had precious few), vampires of the like of Thuringwethil, and probably others. Not to mention the dragons that were still in existence. As for the Boldogs (I read up on them, don'tcha know), it mentioned right next to the name 'Orc Warrior', and orcs of course would still be around at least for a long while.

[Meoshi]

I take the existance of the Moria Balrog as evidence against your view that there were only seven. I look at it this way: The Balrogs did not escape after being deployed against the armies of the West. The Valar, Maiar, and Elves wouldn't let them get away. I figure the escapee, or escapees, must have gotten cold feet(or at least flightly less fiery feet)they had seen the size of the approaching army, and slunk off. Now, if there were a hundred or so Balrogs at the time, as I suspect, a Balrog or two sneaking out the north exit to Thangorodrim or something wouldn't get noticed. Whereas, if there were only seven, someone would definitely notice and tell Melkor that one of his crack regiment was running away.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Tolkien's last view on it was that there were only three or seven Balorgs-EVER.

[Meoshi]

Perhaps, but even so, the Silm tells of a "few" who escaped. More than one. If there were seven, which seems more likely than three, maybe two fled, as Feanor o' the Peredhil suggested. Morgoth wasn't going to abandon his command to rein in a couple of wayward Balrogs. As I recall he had things a bit more important on his mind.

Whic raises the question: Did Morgoth rule the Balrogs through fear, as the Orcs? Or were they mindless servants like the Nazgul? Or something in betwwen perhaps. It's just that if Morgoth had their utter loyalty, a Balrog or two abandoning him would be unthinkable.

[Lady Alasse]

Maybe Melkor ordered them to hide in case he ever came back to ME. Then he would at least have some of his faithful servants still.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Morgoth had been executed by Namo and thurst into the 'void' kind of like our eqiuvalent of space. There are several different versiosn of the 'Dagor Dagorath'(I think, though at the mo. (I can only re-count the seemingly discarded Second Prophecy) and I don't think that it ever says he came back to M-E.

[Meoshi]

So that would leave the last Balrog(s) waiting in hiding to this day...maybe getting a little restless... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

Perhaps we ought to send a few Balrog inspectors in to root out those Balrogs of Mass Destruction ... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[alatar]

Would there be natural places to look? Are Balrogs like Vulcan/Hephaestus, meaning more likely to be found in volcanoes? Is there a volcano in Middle Earth? Or could a stray Balrog hide anywhere?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Would there be natural places to look? Are Balrogs like Vulcan/Hephaestus, meaning more likely to be found in volcanoes? Is there a volcano in Middle Earth? Or could a stray Balrog hide anywhere?

Utumno, Angband, Moria. It seems their preference lies in subterranean hideouts.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Is there a volcano in Middle Earth?

Other than Mount Doom?

Maybe that's the real reason Sauron moved to Mordor originally- he found a Balrog. That's what he's hiding in Mordor, not the thousands of orcs.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Meoshi

Perhaps, but even so, the Silm tells of a "few" who escaped.

Just to add, this statement from the constructed Silmarillion is a remnant from the late 1930s when Tolkien imagined there were very many Balrogs (which conception continued into the Annals, written in the early 1950s).

If the idea noted in The Annals of Aman was going to be true, JRRT arguably had some more revising to do in Quenta Silmarillion, though we can't be sure he was going to give an exact number in any case. The lower numbers of the marginal note (possible written in 1958) wouldn't necessarily be incorporated into the tale, and were not in the actual alteration to AAm.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Other than Mount Doom?

Maybe that's the real reason Sauron moved to Mordor originally- he found a Balrog. That's what he's hiding in Mordor, not the thousands of orcs.

You'd have thought that the Balrog would have made at least one visit to Osgiliath or Minas Tirith in all of those years.

And Galin, if I remember my HoME, at first Tolkien had so many Balrogs attacking Gondolin that Ecthelion's deed at the Fountain would have been less noteworthy, as you couldn't draw your sword without hitting three or four Balrogs.

[Galin]

Yep, very many Balrogs appear in The Book of Lost Tales, and this is one of those ideas that persisted for decades, still appearing in certain of the 'latest' writing in some instances.

For example: 'There came wolves and serpents, and there came Balrogs one thousand,...' (Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad). This is but one example that, as far as I know, was never revised by JRRT for whatever reason, altered to → 'There came wolves and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons...' (Of The Fifth Battle) 1977 Silmarillion.

And then there is Tolkien's own revision to Annals of Aman of (possibly) 1958, and his marginal note, as we know, to confuse things nice and good.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Maybe that's the real reason Sauron moved to Mordor originally- he found a Balrog. That's what he's hiding in Mordor, not the thousands of orcs.

Only a note for interest to this - the Balrog of Moria was originally meant to be sent there by Sauron (in the early concepts of LotR). (I can imagine that being also a kind of remains of Tolkien's "old thinking" when he thought that simply balrogs were more common in M-E - as you can see in the passages mentioned in the posts above. It may be that only later he slowly came to the revision "okay, there shouldn't be that many of them".)