Gnome or Elf?

[Anárion Cúthalion]

The Noldor.

The Silmarillian states that they are Elves, but the Lays of Beleriand and the Unfinished Tales both say that they are Gnomes.



I hope that the revised Silmarillian resolves this minor issue.

By the way, could someone point me to a good resource for using Elvish as a spoken and written language?

[Nerwen]

They're both. That is, Gnomes was the earlier name for the Noldor. (I suppose Tolkien dropped it because of the association with garden gnomes...) They were always supposed to be a tribe of Elves.

Note that Nóm ("Wisdom") survives as Finrod's name among Men in the published Silmarillion.

[Anárion Cúthalion]

Sort of solves the issue. I'm just used to Gnomes being a separate race from either Elves or Dwarves, but similar to Dwarves in that they skilled in the arts of metal and stone but otherwise distinct from Dwarves (other than stature).

It seems, more or less, that was Tolkien's original thought on the matter.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Anárion Cúthalion

Sort of solves the issue. I'm just used to Gnomes being a separate race from either Elves or Dwarves, but similar to Dwarves in that they skilled in the arts of metal and stone but otherwise distinct from Dwarves (other than stature).

It seems, more or less, that was Tolkien's original thought on the matter.

I am not too familiar with the original concepts (better ask somebody who is more familiar with the History of Middle-Earth books), however, I am pretty sure that Tolkien meant simply Elves and the sub-species, or how should it be called, Noldor, were originally labeled as "Gnomes". That's just a name, maybe inspired by the Greek word nomos. But he could have as easily named the Teleri "Klingons" and it doesn't mean that he would imagine them as a race of alien warriors. And forget all D&D stuff and things like that, it's all been started much later, and I doubt there's even a connection or inspiration of these Gnomes by Tolkien's original thoughts (which were not that well known widely anyway).

[narfforc]

When men first encounter Finrod Felagund they name him Nom which means wisdom, and afterwards call his people Nomin meaning the wise. Gnomus means knowledge in Latin, yet in Greek genomos means earth-dweller. I think that Tolkien knew his languages quite well, yet as already stated, the thought of garden gnomes was as off-putting as thinking of Tinkerbell everytime you mention Faery to people.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not too familiar with the original concepts (better ask somebody who is more familiar with the History of Middle-Earth books), however, I am pretty sure that Tolkien meant simply Elves and the sub-species, or how should it be called, Noldor, were originally labeled as "Gnomes".

Yes, that's what I meant. They were always Elves, but "Gnomes" was the name of their particular tribe. It's used interchangeably with "Noldor" even in later texts.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Anárion Cúthalion

The Noldor. The Silmarillian states that they are Elves, but the Lays of Beleriand and the Unfinished Tales both say that they are Gnomes.

In The Book of Lost Tales I (which I think you really mean there as opposed to Unfinished Tales), Christopher Tolkien looks at the sometimes confusing terminology in The Music of the Ainur -- including a chart (page 50) which sets out...

I Teleri (including Inwir) .. .. .. .. Vanyar

II Noldoli (Gnomes) .. .. .. .. Noldor

III Solsosimpi .. .. .. .. Teleri

This simplifies the relation between the old conception and that of the published Silmarillion

I hope that the revised Silmarillian resolves this minor issue.

Is someone revising it?

By the way, could someone point me to a good resource for using Elvish as a spoken and written language?

Not even Tolkien could speak Elvish, though that might depend on what one means by 'speaking' any of the Elvish tongues. In the BBC TV program 'Tolkien in Oxford' JRRT commented about Elvish:

'No. no, no... I wouldn't mind other people knowing it, and enjoying it but I didn't really want to (like some people who have been equally inventive in language) sort of make cults and have people all speaking it together, no. I don't want to go and have afternoons talking Elvish to chaps. For one thing, of course - Elvish is too complicated, and I never finished making it'.

JRRT 1968

A brief statement. And for a more in depth look at the issue, I highly recommend the following article Elvish as She Is Spoke before delving into secondary sources (book or web).

http://www.elvish.org/articles/

There is also a link to resources.

http://www.elvish.org/resources.html

And E.L.F. likely lists this under secondary sources (web), but anyway, for the Tengwar I like:

http://at.mansbjorkman.net/

[Lindale]

Galin, your first link does not work.

I would shudder if I heard anyone talking Elvish. And yeah, there are those who insist. Type in "Elvish, Tolkien" in Google and you'd get phrases and bits of those claiming to be Quenya or Sindarin. I wonder where they get it though--mush of the rules of conjugating Germanic languages?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Galin, your first link does not work.

Ach, Elvish.org is temporarily unavailable. I assume the links will work again when the site is back up. If not, just search for Elvish.org, or the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship.

Originally Posted by Anárion Cúthalion

Sort of solves the issue. I'm just used to Gnomes being a separate race from either Elves or Dwarves, but similar to Dwarves in that they skilled in the arts of metal and stone but otherwise distinct from Dwarves (other than stature).

It seems, more or less, that was Tolkien's original thought on the matter.

Very early on it seems that Tolkien equated gnomes with goblins.

And the inclusion of the word noldar 'mole' perhaps suggested a general sense of 'earth-dweller' too (compare the Paracelsian meaning given in The Book of Lost Tales). Interesting entries in the Qenya Lexicon include: noldorinwa 'goblin' (adj.), or noldomar 'goblin land', and ÑOLDO 'gnome'.

Later the root ÑOL- 'to know' was added, a change that now associated the gloss 'gnome' with knowledge (compare the Greek for 'thought, intelligence', as already mentioned).

[Lindale]

Ach, Galin, typing "Elvish Linguistic Fellowship" on Google does not work either.

[Galin]

It might be some time before the web site is back up (if my links don't work then for some reason, maybe try a regular search).

It's still down (just tried).

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Anárion Cúthalion

The Noldor.

The Silmarillian states that they are Elves, but the Lays of Beleriand and the Unfinished Tales both say that they are Gnomes.

I wish I had my Silmarillion book with me, I just lent it to a friend! Wasn't Beren mentioned as being a Gnome?

[radagastly]

Here's a site about the languages of Tolkien's world:

Ardalambion

I can't actually vouch for it, since I've never been interested in learning the languages that well. I have heard other posters here at the 'Downs speak of it positively, though, so it comes (at least somewhat) recommended.

Enjoy!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I wish I had my Silmarillion book with me, I just lent it to a friend! Wasn't Beren mentioned as being a Gnome?

That would be really weird.

At least I am pretty convinced that's not in Silmarillion, neither in the UT. And I doubt that the HoME would be any different, because, as we just heard, Gnomes are Noldor.

Although... now that you speak of it, I have something like vague impression that I heard somewhere something like that. But more like the thing that Túrin was called "wild Wose". But maybe I am just imagining things.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That would be really weird.

At least I am pretty convinced that's not in Silmarillion, neither in the UT. And I doubt that the HoME would be any different, because, as we just heard, Gnomes are Noldor.

Although... now that you speak of it, I have something like vague impression that I heard somewhere something like that. But more like the thing that Túrin was called "wild Wose". But maybe I am just imagining things.

I remember reading it when Luthien was dancing and Beren had just caught his first glance of her. Tell you what I'm going to see if I can get the book back and look it up.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I wish I had my Silmarillion book with me, I just lent it to a friend! Wasn't Beren mentioned as being a Gnome?

In the published Silmarillion Beren was a mortal man but in BolT II (or HoME II), written much earlier than both the Hobbit and LotR, he was indeed a Gnome. In Tolkien's early writing the Gnomes fell under Morgoth much earlier and much more comprehensively than in the later legendarium. When Beren made his way into Doriath the kingdom was still free behind the Girdle of Melian, while the Gnomes were long defeated and broken mentally by Morgoth and they basically did what he asked them to do. Therefore he often allowed then to move freely and they were distrusted and shunned by the elves of Doriath. Beren was originally intended as one of these Gnomes and was ie a Noldor Elf and not a Man to use the more familiar terminology.

[Galin]

In the early Tale of Tinúviel Beren was seemingly first a Man, then an Elf (a Gnome), and ultimately a Man again of course.

'The rejected passage given on p. 71, together with the marginal note 'If Beren be a Gnome (as now in the story of Tinúviel) the references to Beren must be altered' (note 4), is the basis of my assertion (p. 52) that in the earliest, now lost, form of the Tale of Tinúviel Beren was a Man (...) Beren was a Man, and akin to Mavwin, when the extant Turambar was written; he became a Gnome in the extant Tinúviel; and this change was then written into Turambar.'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary, Turambar And The Foalóke