Those who dare enter Lorien

[Melilot Brandybuck]

It is mentioned several times in LOTR that many consider Lorien to be dangerous, and that of those who enter, few ever return. Faramir also tells this to Frodo in TTT.

So what happens to the ones who never return? Orcs, we know their fate. But what about men? Are they killed by the elves? Kept prisoner? Or do they remain by their own choosing?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I would think that the story of "disappearing people" is more like a spooky story unfolded by superstitious Eorlings and Gondorians and such. But, still I think it may be that this thing really happened to a few people (the legends are likely to have at least some real basis, right), and in that case I would say: if they came with evil intent (like raiders or something), I would expect their fate to be that of the Orcs. But in other cases, I would go for the last reason you state - that they remained of their free (?) will - I am placing here the question mark, because I could see them falling under some sort of enchantment in Lórien, and either wandering the borders without knowing where they are and where to go, until they die from starvation, or for example sitting in the middle of a glade and turning to stone or falling into a state similar to it, you know... Let's not forget that it's improbable, if not impossible, that a Man would actually live in Lórien among the Elves. That is close to unimaginable.

[MatthewM]

Well look what happened to Boromir...he entered...and came out changed. Thus, leading to his death.

I think the whole passage through Lorien is a test of will and spirit - if you fail, you might do something you regret, or even die. Yet if you pass, you go on to bigger things and you achieve greatness within yourself and in deeds. For that is what happened to the rest of the Fellowship. Although you could say that Boromir achieved a greater good...which I think he did, in the end. Totally.

[Melilot Brandybuck]

I take Faramir at his word, that people really did go in and not return. That's just my impression from reading the book. There seemed to be enough rumours circulating which probably means there was some truth to this.

I can't imagine the elves killing a man (or not a man who intends no mischief). But, I can't imagine them allowing some wandering random man to live with them. Would they just wander aimlessly throughout Lorien until they died? Maybe... although I like to think there's a little colony of men who live on the outskirts, living a life of enchantment. Sort of like the ex-pat Brits who move to the Costas, sitting on the patio of their beach-side villa, toasting themselves with a glass of Rioja and saying "I don't know why we didn't do this years ago..."

[Morthoron]

I think of it as rather like the story of Rip Van Winkle by Washington Irving or Karl Katz by the Brothers Grimm (or even Ossian the warrior bard's last dialogue with St. Patrick). When mortals come in contact with Faerie, there is a time-space alteration. Time does not flow the same in Lorien as in the outside world (and this was noticed by Frodo and the others). What seems like a day could be a week, could be a year, could be a century. Those who enter without leave and managed to return to the outside world (if any) are irrevocably altered, aged beyond recognition.

This would only have to happen a few times before superstitions arose, stories of dread concerning the Elf Witch and her haunted forest abode. Similar stories from both Rohan and Gondor give credence to the germ of truth lost in time years before. The Elves, who obviously did not want mortal interlopers nosing around, would certainly foster the superstition, A very effective piece of propaganda, I must say.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think of it as rather like the story of Rip Van Winkle by Washington Irving or Karl Katz by the Brothers Grimm (or even Ossian the warrior bard's last dialogue with St. Patrick). When mortals come in contact with Faerie, there is a time-space alteration. Time does not flow the same in Lorien as in the outside world (and this was noticed by Frodo and the others). What seems like a day could be a week, could be a year, could be a century. Those who enter without leave and managed to return to the outside world (if any) are irrevocably altered, aged beyond recognition.

Tolkien actually considered true time differences here, but ultimately abandoned his ideas. Actual time flow was the same in Lórien as the outside world, even though it did not seem so. The effects of time were arrested however.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien actually considered true time differences here, but ultimately abandoned his ideas. Actual time flow was the same in Lórien as the outside world, even though it did not seem so. The effects of time were arrested however.

Then perhaps I should have said the 'perception' of time flows differently within Lorien. There is no noticeable change, neither seasons nor trees bear the weight of change and age. To a mortal, this would have the same effect as if time stood still, save that they would continue to age while the world remained ever green. Without a means to gauge time, and given the enchanted nature of Lorien, it would be easy for a mortal to succumb to its enticement and forget the world outside; hence my allusion to Rip Van Winkle, or Thomas the Rhymer if you'd like.

[Galin]

OK, but the Company (for example) would rather remain young while those in the outside world aged.

[Blokdog]

Originally Posted by Galin

OK, but the Company (for example) would rather remain young while those in the outside world aged.

no, I don't think so. I would rather say that the world they lived in wouldn't really age, but they would, although not knowing it themselves...

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Then perhaps I should have said the 'perception' of time flows differently within Lorien. There is no noticeable change, neither seasons nor trees bear the weight of change and age. To a mortal, this would have the same effect as if time stood still, save that they would continue to age while the world remained ever green. Without a means to gauge time, and given the enchanted nature of Lorien, it would be easy for a mortal to succumb to its enticement and forget the world outside; hence my allusion to Rip Van Winkle, or Thomas the Rhymer if you'd like.

I remember old wives' tales here in my native Philippines, those abducted by the encantos or diwatas (fairies and Co.) and later return find themselves gone for years. I assume that time does not stand still in the realm of the encantos or diwatas, but them being immortal and magical (very Lorien-ish), time would have a different effect. Things won't readily fade, they stay as they are--and if you don't really see the falling of leaves for example, or the harvesting and sowing of crops you'd eventually lose your long-term bio clock.

But to answer Galin's question, they'd age but not notice it, due maybe to the fair unchanging surroundings. But not even the Valar could remove the Doom of Men, yet maybe because of the power of the elven ring they could age more gracefully than others outside would.

Galadriel is an Elf, immortal, and powerful even by Elven standards. Gondor's lore was fading as the kingdom itself did, and Rohan was sort of "barbaric" when it comes to literature and elven culture. What do you expect them to think? She didn't really maintain contact with Gondor, if she had it at all, so the concept of her being an enchantress is consequential.

[Galin]

Regarding my statement above, and with respect to the Company not ageing in Lórien (or ageing very slowly), from Hammond and Scull:

Tolkien now also introduced the Shire Reckoning, and reached the chronology of The Tale of Years: the Company cross the Silverlode on 16 January 1419, and leave on 16 February. Marquette MSS 4/2/17, headed 'New Time Table allowing 30 days sojourn in Lothlórien' with an added note 'which seems less long than it is (in traditional way)' includes an entry:

'The Coy. [Company] stays in Lórien for many days. They cannot count the time, for they do not age in that time, but outside in fact 30 days goes by.' In Scheme a similar note says:' They cannot count the time, for they themselves do not age or only very slowly. Outside in fact about 30 days passes.'

This was one of the effects of the Elven ring worn by Galadriel. Bilbo had commented on a similar inability to reckon time in Rivendell, where Elrond also wore an Elven ring.'

Hammond and Scull, The Lord of the Rings, A Reader's Companion

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Galin

Regarding my statement above, and with respect to the Company not ageing in Lórien (or ageing very slowly), from Hammond and Scull:

So how come people around Gandalf aged?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So how come people around Gandalf aged?

He wasn't bound to one place and traveled quite a lot, so nobody stayed close to him for much long. Maybe had the Fellowship remained together for longer time than just a few months...

[mark12_30]

Going to Faerie is different than having someone from Faerie visit you. Gandalf doesn't bring Faerie. Gildor brings a taste of it, but I doubt that Frodo, Sam, & Pippin stopped aging when they were with him.

If they ahd stayed for a month with Tom Bombadil, would they have aged then? I wonder.

[Lalwendë]

If Men went into Lorien (and they were probably either too busy elsewhere or too scared to do so), then they would likely have come out of there altered and somehow 'other'. Look how the place affected the members of the Fellowship, and they were more or less made welcome there. A Man might come out at best bewildered and at worst, changed.

It's a familiar tale in folklore and mythology, the mortal who enters Faerie and comes out many, many years later (the traditional time scale seems to be seven years later, whereas he feels he has been there for just one day) quite altered. It's also a familiar motif, the idea of a place that's far too perilous to enter because of the faeries - see Stardust and Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell for two good examples of it in modern literature.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Going to Faerie is different than having someone from Faerie visit you. Gandalf doesn't bring Faerie. Gildor brings a taste of it, but I doubt that Frodo, Sam, & Pippin stopped aging when they were with him.

If they ahd stayed for a month with Tom Bombadil, would they have aged then? I wonder.

Good point.
But Tom Bombadil's house isn't Faerie. Or is it? The debate goes ever on and on, down from the book where it began, now far ahead the debate shall go, over.......

The thing is Tom Bombadil is more "down to earth", so I think that rather than stay the same in the way of elves and Maia, like "beings from above" they'd be more like the earth, changing, getting older, maybe very slowly but still getting older. Or maybe they'd age in the way of seasons, so every year they'd get older quicker than normal, but then be younger again in the spring.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Good point.
But Tom Bombadil's house isn't Faerie. Or is it?

Oh, where is Littlemanpoet when I need him. I think Tom does just as much preserving and protecting, without a ring, as Elrond and Galadriel do with a ring. Very much Faerie, very changeless. And amazing that the ring has no effect on him: makes no change in him.

The debate goes ever on and on, down from the book where it began, now far ahead the debate shall go, over.......

Nice!

The thing is Tom Bombadil is more "down to earth", so I think that rather than stay the same in the way of elves and Maia,.

Ah, but I would have called him an "Earthy Maia." He's so Yavanna-ish, or perhaps Melian or... you know. In terms of interest, and caring, and encouraging things to be what they are and ought.

.

like "beings from above" they'd be more like the earth, changing, getting older, maybe very slowly but still getting older. Or maybe they'd age in the way of seasons, so every year they'd get older quicker than normal, but then be younger again in the spring.

Oh, that's a delicious thought... very interesting.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

the mortal who enters Faerie and comes out many, many years later (the traditional time scale seems to be seven years later, whereas he feels he has been there for just one day) quite altered

My favorite is George Macdonald, who does things like:

Originally Posted by George Macdonald

The Golden Key
She turned and looked him full in the face—stood so for a whole minute, as she thought: it was a whole year...

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

If Men went into Lorien (and they were probably either too busy elsewhere or too scared to do so), then they would likely have come out of there altered and somehow 'other'.

We do know that Aragorn went there. That's where he and Arwen formally 'plighted their troth": at Cerin Amroth. That's another entire discussion, isn't it? Aragorn grew up in Rivendell; visited Arwen (and Galadriel) in Lorien, at least twice.

Since Aragorn grew up in Rivendell, my guess is that Lorien would have less of an effect on him than it would have on, say, Forlong the Fat.

We saw what effect Lorien had on Boromir. Anyone care to hazard a guess on the effect Lorien would have on Faramir? Or Imrahil?

Or Denethor-- a frightening thought.

[wispeight]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Well look what happened to Boromir...he entered...and came out changed. Thus, leading to his death.

I think the whole passage through Lorien is a test of will and spirit - if you fail, you might do something you regret, or even die. Yet if you pass, you go on to bigger things and you achieve greatness within yourself and in deeds. For that is what happened to the rest of the Fellowship. Although you could say that Boromir achieved a greater good...which I think he did, in the end. Totally.

~~~~

I like how you state it. Boromir did not fail himself or the Fellow-ship. As to Lorien, is this the Woodland Realm, where Geladria reigns?

She was responsible for each one seeing what is in their heart. In Frodo's case, the probable future was revealed. The 'seldom return' comment is in relation to the difficulty of reaching this place, Lorien. It makes me wonder.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

We do know that Aragorn went there. That's where he and Arwen formally 'plighted their troth": at Cerin Amroth. That's another entire discussion, isn't it? Aragorn grew up in Rivendell; visited Arwen (and Galadriel) in Lorien, at least twice.

Since Aragorn grew up in Rivendell, my guess is that Lorien would have less of an effect on him than it would have on, say, Forlong the Fat.

We saw what effect Lorien had on Boromir. Anyone care to hazard a guess on the effect Lorien would have on Faramir? Or Imrahil?

Or Denethor-- a frightening thought.

Aragorn is very 'other' though, isn't he?

I wonder if it was the Elven (and Maiar) blood which coursed through his veins which made him better able to cope with the effects of Faerie? Or was it his upbringing in Rivendell (even though Rivendell is a welcoming place for Men)? Even so, when we go with Aragorn to Lorien on the journey of the Fellowship, he speaks of the place with huge reverence, so even he is not fully immune