What?

[Gollum the Great]

If Morgoth had never entered Middle Earth after its actual creation, would evil had ever existed there? and if so, how would it be seen?

As I see it, evil (somehow) would exist because Melkor sang discord into the theme, and so it was part of Middle Earth already. I see no need to have Morgoth be the physical trigger for harm etc.

And as for how, I do not know and leave it alone for discussion.

[Groin Redbeard]

I agree with you, Gollum. Even if he had not entered Middle Earth itself some other form of evil would arise, such as corrupted King, evil Mia ect. The interesting thing about Morgoth was that he did not just seek to enslaved Middle Earth itself, but he thought that he could destroy Valinor. Now when we see people like Sauron, who was not a god like Melkor, I don't think that he had any intention of traveling across the seas to lay siege to Valinor. This might have something to do with that Melkor was not once a mortal, like Sauron was, so he could not just be content with all of Arda.

The gods role in evil
The gods saw Melkor as a threat so they waged war on him, basically he could for their own protection. Whereas they let Sauron be, letting the races of Middle Earth take care of themselves (I bet Ulmo had something to say about that). That's another what if question, would the gods have eventually destroyed Sauron like they destroyed Melkor (I know I'm off the subject), or would they have let Middle Earth fall into darkness?

However if Melkor had not come to Middle Earth I very much doubt that the Valar would have the need of embassies to Middle Earth, such as Curumo and Olorin. Because, the way I see it, Melkor breeded mystical evil that would need to be countered in future generations, therefore they sent the five wizards to help the peoples of Middle Earth.

Good question, Gollum the Great.

[Roa_Aoife]

An interesting question, to be sure. I'd have to say there's a yes and no answer. Melkor, from the beginning, was the cause of the discord, and hence the evil in creation. It wasn't necessary for him to enter it for evil to exist, but then again, it WAS necessary for him to enter. Recall that Men are distinguished from both the Elves and the Valar and Maiar in that Men are not bound by fate. Melkor, as one of the Ainur, was bound. From the moment he began the discord, his fate was sealed. One could say his role as the embodiment of evil was inevitable.

Had Melkor himself not entered, one of the lesser Ainur, the Maiar, would have taken the role, or perhaps one of the Valar that did enter. Melkor wasn't the only one involved in the discord, after all. As I said, the only people in Middle Earth NOT tied to this destiny were Men, because they had the ability to choose their own fate. Unfortunately, they were also the easiest to corrupt, perhaps because of that very reason.

Groin, remember that Morgoth was in a whole other league from Sauron. The only ones who could defeat him were the Valar themselves, with all of the peoples of Middle Earth helping. Sauron, on the other hand, could be defeated without the help of the Valar, as was shown at the great battle just as the second age ended and the third age began. The Valar did send help though, in the form of the Istari- the five wizards. Their original job was to stand against and defeat Sauron, though all but Gandalf wandered away from that goal. And Frodo cried out to the Valar when he was in need and felt as though he was helped. Gandalf lets him know that he is never alone, and it is implied that unseen forces are at work through out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

An interesting question, to be sure. I'd have to say there's a yes and no answer. Melkor, from the beginning, was the cause of the discord, and hence the evil in creation. It wasn't necessary for him to enter it for evil to exist, but then again, it WAS necessary for him to enter. Recall that Men are distinguished from both the Elves and the Valar and Maiar in that Men are not bound by fate. Melkor, as one of the Ainur, was bound. From the moment he began the discord, his fate was sealed. One could say his role as the embodiment of evil was inevitable.

I have only to second Roa, indeed, that's probably the way to see it. I would have posted similarly, now I could only say the same in other words. You could also say, from another point of view: if you look at the Ainulindalë, Arda was somewhat pre-shaped by the Music, yet when Valar came down, all was yet empty and they had to labour hard to make all the things - which already were in the Music - came to being. And at that moment Melkor came, and kept destroying what they built etc..
So, in fact, we can say that from the moment Melkor started his dischord, there really was no other option for him than to come down to Arda and keep destroying the other Valar's work, likewise the other Valar had to come down and grow plants and raise mountains etc. If Melkor chose not to come down, there will be simply a "logical flaw" in the creation. There was direct causality between the Music and the reality of Arda itself. In this, the Music was really much more for the Valar than they "thought", also because it simply predetermined their actions (now if saying "pre"determined is correct, because it was in the so-called Timeless Halls, so you could actually say that the Music took the place at the same moment as when the corresponding events took place in the world, if you get what I mean). The only one then, who could intervene into the world behind the pre-determination of the Music, would be Eru himself, and then of course his Children (who again themselves are his intervention).

[Eönwë]

I couldn't have said it better myself, Legate.

But I also have another thought. After re-thinking about the BoLT, it could be interpreted that Ungoliant was the direct action of Melkor's discord, a primeval spirit of darkness (And probably not Ainu, looking at the text), which would mean, that even if Melkor had left after the end of the creation of Arda, maybe Ungoliant would have drunk the light of the Two trees anyway, and evil would have continued.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Melkor, from the beginning, was the cause of the discord, and hence the evil in creation. It wasn't necessary for him to enter it for evil to exist, but then again, it WAS necessary for him to enter.

I would disagree. Eru was the cause of the discord as It was the creator of Melkor. It also had the power/ability to stop Melkor at any time, or, during the Music, say, "Ahem..." and turn back time, remove Melkor before any thought of a seed of discord were even to happen, then restart the song.

Obviously Melkor was important to the song; without a good stir, what would pudding be? To me Melkor is essential to Iluvatar and It's creation; he (Melkor) is the challenge, the goad, the obstacle that, when overcome, allows true greatness to shine through. Without heat and cold, we wouldn't have the breeze to cool us, move the flowers on a fragrant tree, leave its footprints across the grassy lawn. The same cause gives us catastrophic storms.

One day the entire universe may be at stasis - nothing moving, everything equally dispersed in a homogenous dead lake of atoms, a heat death - and the song dies that day.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I wonder: Melkor chose to Sing in discord, but musically speaking, those notes that are not within the chord -- discordant or enharmonic -- are nonetheless a part of the music as a whole. That Melkor caused dissonance may have been "wrong" not because of the dissonance itself, but because he wanted it to dominate. Not unlike someone in an orchestra deliberately playing out of key, trying to force the entire ensemble to play not in the given key, but in one s/he prefers.

So, is the fact that Melkor sang discord "evil," or was the fact that he was given free will "evil"? Without free will, he could not have done anything but follow the commands of the Conductor -- which might have led to a kind of perfection, but would not have allowed to any sort of improvisation or even expressive interpretation within the Music. It may be a moot point, since (one presumes) all that exists within Creation exists with the knowledge (or at least the sufferance) of the Creator, and in the end, whatever it truly is "evil will be good to have been, and yet remain evil."

[Morthoron]

Ibrîn, maybe Melkor was the first jazz musician in history, and was merely going for syncopation (which would have been disruptive to the rest of the Ainur's rigid pre-Stravinsky classicism).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But, Morth, Melkor's discord plainly *angered* Eru, and was adjudged the Root of All Evil: so it must have been twelve-tone serialism.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Ibrîn, maybe Melkor was the first jazz musician in history, and was merely
going for syncopation (which would have been disruptive to the rest of the Ainur's rigid pre-Stravinsky classicism).

LOL! Melkor as Scott Joplin, doing ragtime. What an image! Of course, if one looks back at some of the pre-classical forms of music into modality, one will find a lot of accepted forms that, to classical chromatic harmonic structure, are absolutely Right Out (i.e., parallel fifths). So which chicken or egg came first?

But, Morth, Melkor's discord plainly *angered* Eru, and was adjudged the Root of All Evil: so it must have been twelve-tone serialism.

Or he just wasn't following the score, and anyone who's ever performed in any kind of ensemble knows how testy some conductors can get, especially when they're also the composer. I know I would be quite unbearable if I were to conduct one of the symphonies I've composed. I also know, as a songwriter, how I feel when I compose something that has great meaning for me, and other performers insist on placing what, to my mind, is an incorrect interpretation on the work -- and then go on to perform it so often that other people think that the "wrong" interpretation is the "correct" one. I'd get ticked off, too.

But then, trying to inject twelve-tone serialism into either traditional chromatic or modal music... one shudders to think of the sound! Although I seem to recall Melkor's music being described as loud and braying as if on one note, so maybe Melkor wasn't really being discordant as much as magnificently tone-deaf.

Okay, I digress from topic. Sorry about that. Somewhat more seriously, because of the way Tolkien wrote it, we do have to remember that events of the Ainulindale are presented through the lens of an Elf describing something that no Elf ever witnessed. From their viewpoint, Melkor was responsible for committing the first Act of Evil, and therefore must, to their minds, be the Root of All Evil. But if Eru had not expected or allowed for such a thing to happen, He would have simply started over or summarily erased Melkor and his deeds from the picture. That He didn't would, at least to me, seem to be an indication that Eru expected something like this to happen. Why He would be angered by something an omnipotent/omniscient being would have foreseen is, perhaps, an interpretation of the Elvish historians, who could not have imagined any other reaction. Just a possibility.

But if one considers Melkor himself as the personification of Evil, then perhaps it was necessary for him to personally enter Ea, in order to bring evil with him. If free choice itself presents the possibility of evil as a choice of all creatures who have that freedom, then perhaps it was not necessary for him to have come; evil likely would have happened sooner or later, without him. But since the one thing Melkor desired but could not have was the power of Creation on a par with Eru's, then the next best thing for him would be entering the world of Eru's creation to either subjugate it to his will or to destroy it utterly. What he sang in the Ainulindale was an attempt to make it his own, and to have that become reality, he had to enter Ea to see it done. IMHO, of course.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

That He didn't would, at least to me, seem to be an indication that Eru expected something like this to happen. Why He would be angered by something an omnipotent/omniscient being would have foreseen is, perhaps, an interpretation of the Elvish historians, who could not have imagined any other reaction. Just a possibility.

Or was Eru just a poor parent? Or did It want for Melkor to continue? I know that if one ignores tantrums in children, they (the tantrums, not the children) tend to go away. Some children want a reaction - any reaction, even a negative one - from a parent just so the child can feel noticed by the parent.

Melkor had self-esteem issues..."Look at me! Aren't I great! Eru gave me all of my siblings' powers and abilities, and I still feel inadequate...I need more creatures to tell me that I'm really great and wonderful."

As I've said previously, Melkor just needed a hug.

But if one considers Melkor himself as the personification of Evil, then perhaps it was necessary for him to personally enter Ea, in order to bring evil with him. If free choice itself presents the possibility of evil as a choice of all creatures who have that freedom, then perhaps it was not necessary for him to have come; evil likely would have happened sooner or later, without him. But since the one thing Melkor desired but could not have was the power of Creation on a par with Eru's, then the next best thing for him would be entering the world of Eru's creation to either subjugate it to his will or to destroy it utterly. What he sang in the Ainulindale was an attempt to make it his own, and to have that become reality, he had to enter Ea to see it done. IMHO, of course.

I think that he had to enter as that's where all of the action was. He brought his poor attitude with him, and attacked his siblings' works as yet another attempt of attracting attention. "Stop me, please, Eru!" Maybe he was trying to recapture those moments when he'd felt so special, having all of the Music change then stop just because of him.

Kids...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And then Joseph's brothers finally got fed up with the conceited little prat and mugged him.... whoops, wrong dysfunctional family.

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...perhaps because Melkor's contribution was considered loud and braying by the Ainuric aficianados, a better comparison would be between Melkor and Bob Dylan at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival. Bob whipped out his electric guitar, and rather than crooning an acoustic 'Blowin' in the Wind', he blared a loud version of 'Maggie's Farm'. The enraged folkies started screaming "HERESY!" and "TRAITOR!" in unison.

Melkor wasn't evil, he was merely a brooding, cerebal rock star.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

LOL! Melkor as Scott Joplin, doing ragtime. What an image!

Racist.

EDIT: I jest, of course.

[Gwathagor]

I imagine that the problem with Melkor's music was not that it was innovative (as you will recall that Melkor could only mimic and rearrange Eru's tunes, but could not create anything really new) or that it was different, but that it was a deviation apart from Eru's plan. Melkor was over-eager and impatient, and ultimately unwilling to follow Eru's established timeline for the development of the theme. He had an agenda and a will which he set above Eru's. That is called rebellion, and it is why Melkor's foray into musical composition was wrong. It was a timing issue.

(Have I missed the point? I don't to be redundant or preachy.)