What is might?

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Hi.

I wanted to know what "might" is in Tolkien's books. He always writes "XX was the mightiest of the ..". In the Silmarillion it is almost in every chapter that a specific person is mightiest or strongest or .. I don't know.

So, I simply wanted to know, what might is.

In the LOTR it is written, that Gandalf was really mighty, but what was it? He didn't show his might very often. Once when he spoke the spell of command when the Balrog was on the other side of the door.

Or in the Silmarillion, Chapter Of the Maiar is written, that Eonwe was the mightiest in Arms in Arda.

And so on ..

Thanks.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Ganadalf/Olorin's might is his humility. He was siad ot have learnt a lot form Nienna and it shows. Gandalf refusing to head the council is an example of this. I think that Gandalf is so wise and strong becuase of his humility.

[Jurion]

Might does not always show itself in the same way. Might could be in arms but might could also lie in ones mind. Everybody is mighty in his/her own way. The same holds true for weakness. While Faenor was mighty with his hands and with his spirit, he had the weakness of being to bold and to vengeful. The might of Frodo and Sam was not in their bodies, but in their friendship and their will to complete what they set out to do.

[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Jurion ]

[obloquy]

Gandalf's might was not solely in his humility. He was a very powerful spirit in the traditional sense: his ability to effect his will upon the physical world. His humility, as well as his genuine selfless love of others, and his willing submission to the Powers, were virtues that set him apart because they are rarely coupled with such power as he innately possessed. This combination made him uncommonly successful in his endeavors. He also had Eru's favor, no doubt because of his exceptional temperament.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

You just have to look at Nienna's rank as one of the Chief of the Valar, yet she has little might in the sense of fighting skills, wheras Orome, who is a little impetous, may be mightier then her in battle, but still doesn't have her power, rank or status and the same goes for Yavanna and Varda or any of the Valier. Remeber, 'weak' Sam, was more resilent to the ring then the mighty Isildur or Boromir. That is the beauty of Tolkien's works-might can be percieved in many diffrent ways.

[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Iarwain]

I always took might to simply mean strength. It fits in every sentence that way. They were a mighty group, They were a strong group. Olorin's might was wisdom, Olorin's strength was wisdom. It works! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarwain

[doug*platypus]

Gandalf was really mighty

No, I think I'd remember such a terrible sentence as that. "Might" is always (in my recollection) used of a warrior or of an army - it means physical strength in arms. I'd be very interested if someone could provide an actual quote where it is used in a different sense. Most posters here seem to be putting words into The Professor's mouth - Pulling a PJ, as you may well call it.

For more thoughts on the power of words in Middle-Earth, click here.

[The Saucepan Man]

Might does not always show itself in the same way. Might could be in arms but might could also lie in ones mind. Everybody is mighty in his/her own way.

Absolutely - and JRRT always seems to explain the context in which he uses the word "might". When we are first introduced to the Valar in the Valaquenta, almost all of them are described as mighty, and you at first think: "Oh, so he's more powerful than her, and she's clearly more powerful than him".

But careful reading shows that each is described as powerful in their own way:

The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in the beginning Melchor; but Manwe is dearest to Iluvatar and understands most clearly his purpose.

So, his power, as the greatest of the Valar rests in his closeness to Iluvatar, and of course his lordship over the "regions of the air".

Ulmo ... is next in might to Manwe ...

And his might is described in terms of his independence and his dominion over all things hydrological.

Aule has might little less than Ulmo. His lordship is over all the substances of which Arda is made.

So, we can see where Aule's might lays. And so on until we come to Orome, who is a great example of how might is qualified:

Orome is a mighty lord.

How mighty, we may think. Well...

If he is less strong than Tulkas, he is more dreadful in anger ...

Ah, so Orome is less "strong" (physically, presumably) than Tulkas, but his might lies in his anger, when aroused, and also (as we then learn) in his love for the lands of ME (ergo, he is the first of the Valar to discover the Elves).

The same applies with the Elves in the Silmarillion. Finwe's sons are described thus:

Feanor was the mightiest in skill and word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame ...

Whereas Fingolfin was:

... the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant ...

And Finarfin was:

... the fairest, and the most wise of heart ...

So each of these characters are "mighty" in their own way, and JRRT tells exactly in what way they are to be considered as such.

[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[doug*platypus]

I appreciate the fact that you looked up quotes for this one, Saucy (unless you have the Memory of Champions), but you have not given proof that either Fingolfin or Finarfin are literally referred to with the word "might", aside from your own opinion on the matter (which may differ from JRRT's). The only might I would see applicable to Finarfin would be, "I might come with you to Middle-Earth... but then again, I might not."

The Valar are certainly mighty, I don't deny that, but this comes from the awesome power that they wield, not because of other factors such as understanding Ilúvatar. Are you suggesting that Manwë is not physically strong? I think as Lord of the Airs he wields immense physical power, as do Ulmo, Aulë, Melkor and Ossë. Oromë is certainly mighty in arms. He is the hunter, and skilled with weapons, and just because Tulkas is his superior in wrestling doesn't make his might due solely to other, non-martial factors.

I stand by my assertion that

"Might" is always (in my recollection) used of a warrior or of an army - it means physical strength in arms.

and have not yet seen any quotes to disprove this. Of course, I must add that the possession of this physical strength is not dependent upon the use of it. Manwë is very physically strong and mighty, in my opinion, but never uses his might in a warlike sense. So might is a measure of innate or potential physical power.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

" Mighty are the Ainur and mightiest among them is Melkor" Eru to the Ainur, before entering Ea,before they had assumed bodily shape, hence eliminating the might=strength in battle factor.

[The Saucepan Man]

I appreciate the fact that you looked up quotes for this one, Saucy (unless you have the Memory of Champions),

Nope - I just read that bit in the book. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Doug, one of the quotes that I gave was an example of might being used in a sense other than physical strength in arms:

Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand

... meaning Feanor was mighty in his use of words (for example, his persuasion of the majority of the Noldor to follow him when he spoke to them about departing Aman) and mighty in his skill as a craftsman (the obvious example being that he created the Silmarils). Clearly, he was a great warrior too, but his brother Fingolfin is said to have been physically the stronger.

The paragraph from which the quotes about the three brothers came is introducing them and describing their redeeming characteristics. Since Feanor's characteristics in this regard are described in terms of might, I believe that descriptions applied to his brothers define their might too, ie strength, endurance and valour in Fingolfin's case and fairness and wisdom in the case of Finarfin.

Hence, this paragraph is a prime example of how JRRT uses "might" to refer not just to physical strength, but also strength in other respects.

[Bêthberry]

I think Estelyn Telcontar might be able to supply some examples of might used in reference to musicians.

Funny, though, that the homophone mite means rather the opposite.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

'Songs of power' would indeed be an interesting discussion topic, but I'm too busy with my paper on Middle-earth instruments this week to post about it...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

It strikes me that a distinction is being made here that is not unlike the distinction Tolkien makes between "magic" as it is very commonly presented (that being some external power that is drawn upon through the use of rituals or devices) and the kind of "magic" Tolkien uses that is an internal power resulting from the nature of the being employing it. In his letters, Tolkien's references to "power" almost always describe it in dangerous terms; in L151, he says that possessiveness and rebellion against morality will "lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective." Power, in his mind (especially with a capital P), appears to relate closely to domination. Although he does not speak specifically of "might," when one considers many of his uses of it, it would appear (at least to me) that he is speaking of something more personal, of individual strength, as well as individual power. He makes an interesting point about the nature of power in an attempt to explain something about Tom Bombadil:

The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, of beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom without consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless.

Now, this is all subjective, since I can find nothing in which Tolkien discusses the difference between "might" and "power" (as he does discuss the difference between magia and goetia), and certainly, the two words are sometimes nearly synonymous. But as I see it, "might" is a quality of the individual, whether it be innate or learned; "power" is something acquired or bestowed, as dominion is acquired (either with kindness or by force) or granted (as Eru gave Manwe dominion as His regent in Arda, which was certainly His to give, as the Creator). One can be powerful but not mighty (for some reason, Eol comes to mind), or mighty but not powerful (one might apply this description to Nienna, or to Maedhros chained to the heights of Thangorodrim).

Okay, the brain is sputtering a bit, here, early morning after a long night. But there's a thought in there somewhere...

[Gordis]

Here is a quote where "might" clearly doesn't refer to "physical power" but more to "influence".

"How otherwise can it be for the Eldar, if they cling to Middle-earth?" said Celebrimbor. "Will you then pass over Sea?"
"Nay," [Galadriel] said. "Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier."- UT -"The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" ("The Elessar")

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Which goes to show that "mighty" probably had no clear distinction from "power" or "influence," as Tolkien generally used it. But since this use is coming out of the mouth of a character rather than in the narration, one might argue that this is Galadriel's interpretation (or misinterpretation, as may be) of the word, if one wanted to press the issue. Personally, I think Tolkien did not have the same distinct definition of "might" as he did for "power." Of the latter, he went so far as to say that "'power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods" (letter 131), which to me implies that he gave a good deal of thought as to how he wanted to use the word. There is no such statement in reference to "mighty," which leaves it open to more liberal interpretation, I think.

[Bêthberry]

Interesting replies here! I like Ibrin's distinction between innate talent and ability for mighty and learned or developed force of Will for Power. (We all know that Galadriel could be a bad girl at times. ) However, as Ibrin suggests, perhaps the very fact that Tolkien apparently never capitalises might or mighty as he does with power/Power, demonstrates that the word for him does not have the significant reverberations in his thought that power/Power does. (Yikes! a word Tolkien might not have niggled over?)

Now, I have it on some authority, but cannot speak this of my own, having not read The Lay of Leithian, and not owning the book to scurry away to verify the source, but, as I say, this authority of whom I speak says that therein Tolkien describes Daeron as 'the mightiest of the three [Elven musicians]' (the other two being Gelion and Maglor). Now, Daeron is associated with Luthian, so possibly his playing was what inspired her dancing. And we all know where her dancing led . . . .

Consequently here we might have an example of might and its inflexions used without reference to physical prowess. *

EDIT: *unless we take this to refer to the prestidigital prowess of the piper.

[The Might]

Look at my name and you will know what Might truly is!

[the phantom]

What, not who.