A Query...

[Kuruharan]

This may fall into the "unanswerable question" category...

Was there much in the way of commerce that took place between the Free Peoples and the Men of Darkness (I would have put "forces of Darkness" but I think that direct commerce with orcs would probably have been out of the question).

I started thinking about this question from the perspective of if Gondor had much in the way of ocean going commerce but decided to open the question a little more than that.

Examples that I can readily think of are the intermingling that took place (however grudgingly) between Dunland and Rohan.

I also wonder how the peoples of the East learned about the weath of Gondor. Obviously, they had Sauron to spur them on, but might they also have gained some knowledge through trade...?

Going back to Gondor's maritime commerce, the name "Corsairs of Umbar" implies preying upon Gondor's ships, but were these ships engaged in international commerce or in internal commerce?

[alatar]

I assume that goods would have made their way between hostile nations, as we see it today. There may be 'go-betweens' and those that look the other way when goods 'drop off of the truck,' and those that offer 'protection services' for a small piece of the pie. So even if officially there is no trading, surely trading is happening.

[Kuruharan]

So even if officially there is no trading, surely trading is happening.

I'm inclined to agree.

However, the identities of any middle men and their relationships is part of what I'm so curious about.

I could imagine during the time that Gondor controlled Umbar that there would have been surrounding tribes who would have traded with the city and then carried goods further into the hinterland. However, this gets more complex as Gondor's power receded. What sort of middle men could have existed if somebody, for example, wanted to get goods from Gondor to Khand after Gondor's power was restricted to the Porus?

[Bêthberry]

The same way European countries did it, using the sleight of hand of "privateers." The example of England is particularly appropriate here, especially once England officially renounced the slave trade but still allowed independent naval entrepreneurs to engage in the trade.

If Aragorn ran into so much trouble so quickly into the 4th Age, the existence of these kinds of freelance entrepreneurs might account for some of his troubles in bringing social order about. Who wants taxes inforced upon them?

[Eönwë]

I wonder... what about tariffs.. or was Tolkiens world full of freedom in trade. He mentions money nowhere.

Wait, that deservves its own thread if there is not one already about it. Money.

edit: wait, it does mention money, sorry. Thinking that made me lose focus in what I was saying (Its late now and I'll probably continue tomorrow)

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The same way European countries did it, using the sleight of hand of "privateers." The example of England is particularly appropriate here, especially once England officially renounced the slave trade but still allowed independent naval entrepreneurs to engage in the trade.

You have hit on a very good point Bêthberry. Gondor might have for a time paid the Corsairs of Umbar to stop attacking their vessals, like the European nations did in 1803.

Hmm... and what of the dwarves? I'm pretty sure that they may have had dealings with the Easterlings at one time.

[Eönwë]

Well, Groin, I'm sure in the original Legendarium they did, being evil, but after they became a good race, who knows.

They probably did dthough, because everyone likes a bit of gold in the end (or a the very least some sort of metal) and the dwarves were all tooo happy to sell it (except for the gold) seems like I'm contradicting myself. Anyway, what would they want from the Easterlings?

[Alfirin]

It is obivios at least some trade was conducted between the "light" and "dark", nations, as there were at least some goods amoung the free people which could only habe been obtained from such trade. For example I seem to recall Tolkeing saying I think it was in the UT version of "tour and his coming to gondlin" that one of the great Gondolin swords (Glamidring I believe) had either a hilt or sheath made of "ruel bone" which Tolkein notes as being the middle earth term for ivory. This ivory would have (probably) had to come from elephants (Mumakul) which unless, they ranged far wider in the first age than in the third, would mean at least some trade with the people of the lands which later became Far Harad even among the elves. I suppose the ivory could of been walrus too but that would mean trade with the Forodwaith who seemed to have little to do with the outside world even in the first age.
Beyond the "look the other way" trade suggested I would imagine that at most border lands there were trading posts and "free cites" places swaring allegiance to nethier The west nor the east, but allowing merchants from either to meet in (comparitive) safety and security.

[radagastly]

In the "Unexpected Party," Bilbo served coffee to the dwarves (or at least, they requested it, knowing it was available.) Coffee does not grow in the same climate as tobacco, and the Shire was famous for growing tobacco. It stands to reason that the coffee was imported from some jungle-like, southern land, where coffee grows easily. Clearly, some kind of trade existed between (at least) the Shire and some of the Sothron lands, from which the coffee must have come. I imagine the dwarves of the Blue Mountains trading with the shipbuilders of the Grey Havens for passage (at least) if not ownership of the actual ships they needed to use. After all, just because the elves built ships to the undying lands doesn't mean they didn't also build very sea-worthy ships for sale to the highest bidders for other purposes in the Middle-Earth vicinity. As much as most of them hated boats, the dwarves of the Blue Mountains had spent an age living within sight of the sea. They must surely have gotten over their water fears by then. They could (and would) have easily sailed south far enough to trade for the goods that would maximize their profit from the voyage, as any good trader would.

Certainly, Gondor was founded by seafaring people, and they would have kept that knowledge and skill as long as they could continue to foster it. Did the Prince of Dol Amroth keep a fleet of trading ships all the way into the end of the third age? It seems very likely to me. What else (aside from personal dignity) would keep his Principality at such a level of dignity and respect if he did not provide some genuine value to the kingdom of Gondor? A lucrative trade in exotic spices and goods of all kinds seems a likely source of wealth for a coastal city-state such as Dol Amroth.

Of course, I'm only guessing. I cannot cite a single quote to back up any of these theories. It all seems pretty logical to me, though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by radagastly

In the "Unexpected Party," Bilbo served coffee to the dwarves (or at least, they requested it, knowing it was available.) Coffee does not grow in the same climate as tobacco, and the Shire was famous for growing tobacco. It stands to reason that the coffee was imported from some jungle-like, southern land, where coffee grows easily. Clearly, some kind of trade existed between (at least) the Shire and some of the Sothron lands, from which the coffee must have come. I imagine the dwarves of the Blue Mountains trading with the shipbuilders of the Grey Havens for passage (at least) if not ownership of the actual ships they needed to use. After all, just because the elves built ships to the undying lands doesn't mean they didn't also build very sea-worthy ships for sale to the highest bidders for other purposes in the Middle-Earth vicinity. As much as most of them hated boats, the dwarves of the Blue Mountains had spent an age living within sight of the sea. They must surely have gotten over their water fears by then. They could (and would) have easily sailed south far enough to trade for the goods that would maximize their profit from the voyage, as any good trader would.

Well I must oppose here. The Hobbits also lived quite a long time not that far from the Sea, yet they never dared to go there. I can't possibly imagine a Dwarf stepping on a boat unless he were Gimli forced by his duties, or by Aragorn, or seeing some nice heads to chop aboard (but hoping to get off as soon as possible). And the idea of Círdan trading ship with them seems odd at least. No, I am sure the Dwarves had their part in it if it came to trade, and it may well be that they supplied coffee to the Shire, but through some nice, old-fashioned ways on the land. A Dwarf could take a pony caravan and supply coffee from the East, or from some Dunland to where the coffee came from elsewhere in the South. I am sure the sea-ways were not safer than the overland route, and especially not for Dwarves, who never were mariners.

Asides from that, I think Tolkien's proverbial anachronisms are to blame, but I am not willing to talk about that here: the coffee was in the Shire and now how to explain it. In the way the coffee is handled in the Shire, I would actually presume that coffee actually was cultivated somewhere in, or at least near the Shire. Had it come all the way from let's say Far Harad, it would have been quite a rare thing. Yet Bilbo does not worry about serving it to a band of Dwarves he hardly even knows. Of course he was a rich hobbit, but no one tells us that the guests were super-excited when they saw such a rare thing as coffee being served.

And speaking of it, what about tea? That was even more common, everywhere; and it surely can't grow everywhere as well.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Certainly, Gondor was founded by seafaring people, and they would have kept that knowledge and skill as long as they could continue to foster it. Did the Prince of Dol Amroth keep a fleet of trading ships all the way into the end of the third age? It seems very likely to me. What else (aside from personal dignity) would keep his Principality at such a level of dignity and respect if he did not provide some genuine value to the kingdom of Gondor? A lucrative trade in exotic spices and goods of all kinds seems a likely source of wealth for a coastal city-state such as Dol Amroth.

This sounds very plausible, though.

[Thinlómien]

Now, I find this topic very interesting, possibly because I've lately been planning some things for an RPG and have realised I should probably know about these things...

I agree with more or less everybody on this thread: it is probable that tarde between these nations existed. I can very well see Gondorian nobility using luxury products that have been brought from Harad or far Eastern lands. Ivory, silk, spices maybe even hides of exotic animals. What the Kings or Stewards thought, or whether this trade was official or legal, that I don't know. I can very well see it being banned at least from time to time.

As for coffee, it has been discussed in this thread, Coffee!, to a great extent. Maybe some of you will find that interesting. What I said on the thread was

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

What if it is this simple: in Tolkien's Middle-Earth coffee grew in colder climate than in our world? Wouldn't be the only difference between the two worlds.

I mean, if a book has elves, hobbits, dwarves and orcs etc prancing around (not to mention balrogs and such) is it really any wonder that in such a world coffee may grow in a different climate than in our world?

and I still think that reasonable enough an explanation. Of course it can be argued...

[The Sixth Wizard]

What else ... would keep [Dol Amroth] at such a level of dignity and respect if he did not provide some genuine value to the kingdom of Gondor? A lucrative trade in exotic spices and goods of all kinds seems a likely source of wealth for a coastal city-state such as Dol Amroth.

If there's one thing I know about trade, its that if you can take the cargo by sea, you'll never go overland. Why go to Dol Amroth and unload all the heavy stuff, then cart it miles and miles to Minas Tirith, all the way trying not to get arrested or killed because you are an outlander trader? It would be much easier just to sail merrily up the Anduin, no? Even if what you were doing was illegal, you could smuggle things on ships with ease compared to over land. Dol Amroth would have its fair share of exotic trade, but certainly not as much as Pelargir or Minas Tirith.

The "dignity and respect" comes from the elven character of the city and the high ranking knights there.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I agree with more or less everybody on this thread: it is probable that tarde between these nations existed. I can very well see Gondorian nobility using luxury products that have been brought from Harad or far Eastern lands. Ivory, silk, spices maybe even hides of exotic animals. What the Kings or Stewards thought, or whether this trade was official or legal, that I don't know. I can very well see it being banned at least from time to time.

As for coffee, it has been discussed in this thread, Coffee!, to a great extent. Maybe some of you will find that interesting. What I said on the thread was and I still think that reasonable enough an explanation. Of course it can be argued...

Now there was a thread, Lommy! And speaking of threads, we can ask if exotic spices, coffees, gems were the only objects of trade. In what did hobbits drape themselves?

Was it linen, woven from the flax plants that every good hobbit family grew in its garden? Clothes couldn't rightly be made from cotton, as cotton seems to raise the same difficulty as coffee climate-wise.

Could silk be harvested from local silk worms, or would it be imported? Was sheep farming a regular occupation amongst hobbits? Pity the poor hobbit who was allergic to wool.

Of what material did Arwen sew her banner?--Esty, I'm sure you can put your finger on this.

Trade need not be prompted solely by luxury items, but by any need.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Now there was a thread, Lommy! And speaking of threads, we can ask if exotic spices, coffees, gems were the only objects of trade. In what did hobbits drape themselves?

Drapery?

Trade need not be prompted solely by luxury items, but by any need.

Exactly. And surely some of the noble born - or at least their teenaged children - showed off by using/consuming items from banned nations. Not all were 100% loyal to the King/Country.

And what of those that were hybrids - citizens or children of both nations (i.e. parents were from Rohan and Dunland)? Where did their loyalties lay? In starving kin or fat King?

And what of persons like Bill Ferny? He would have traded his mother or a few hobbits for a genuine White Wizard White Hand-emblazened Helm (protection against organic missiles +4).

[Kuruharan]

The same way European countries did it, using the sleight of hand of "privateers."
-Bethberry

I hadn't given that aspect of it much consideration. Smuggling and activities of that nature certain could account for trade between sides...as it often does in times of war.

I wonder... what about tariffs.. or was Tolkiens world full of freedom in trade.
-Eönwë

I think the more developed governments would attempt to regulate trade in some way. The regulation of trade is an ancient part of governmental function.

This ivory would have (probably) had to come from elephants (Mumakul)
-Alfirin

Ivory would definitely be a reason to trade with Harad.

I imagine the dwarves of the Blue Mountains trading with the shipbuilders of the Grey Havens for passage (at least) if not ownership of the actual ships they needed to use. After all, just because the elves built ships to the undying lands doesn't mean they didn't also build very sea-worthy ships for sale to the highest bidders for other purposes in the Middle-Earth vicinity. As much as most of them hated boats, the dwarves of the Blue Mountains had spent an age living within sight of the sea. They must surely have gotten over their water fears by then. They could (and would) have easily sailed south far enough to trade for the goods that would maximize their profit from the voyage, as any good trader would.
-radagastly

I have to agree with Legate. I don't think the dwarves ever took to the sea. While I think the dwarves probably were the primary merchants of Middle earth I think their commerce was land based.

Was it linen, woven from the flax plants that every good hobbit family grew in its garden? Clothes couldn't rightly be made from cotton, as cotton seems to raise the same difficulty as coffee climate-wise.

Could silk be harvested from local silk worms, or would it be imported? Was sheep farming a regular occupation amongst hobbits? Pity the poor hobbit who was allergic to wool.

Of what material did Arwen sew her banner?--Esty, I'm sure you can put your finger on this.

Trade need not be prompted solely by luxury items, but by any need.
-Bethberry

Now this is interesting. It reminds me of Justinian importing silk worms to start his own silk industry.

Elves seem the most likely to be the great weavers of Middle earth...but I don't think there is ever any mention of where they obtained their materials.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I wonder... what about tariffs.. or was Tolkiens world full of freedom in trade. He mentions money nowhere.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think the more developed governments would attempt to regulate trade in some way. The regulation of trade is an ancient part of governmental function.

Actually, I have some information concerning this. And where else than in the Hobbit! See (Smaug to Bilbo):

Originally Posted by Chapter 12: Inside Information

"(...) But what about delivery? What about cartage? What about armed guards and tolls?" And Smaug laughed aloud. He had a wicked and a wily heart, and he knew his guesses were not far out...

This at least looks like a proof that some tariffs existed indeed. Smaug may have lied or not, but he would not have thought of something that did not exist, and he must have presumed that Bilbo well knows what he's talking about - so such economic things were widely known.

[Eönwë]

This might be a bit late but about coffee think of the Arkenstone! Maybe thats why everyone loved it. It provided enough UV for photosynthesis. Aha! a new conspiracy theory by me! Anyway, maybe thats why it glowed. Maybe, WOW (I didn't see this coming) it was a Silmaril.

[Elmo]

Was it wise for the Gondorians to trade with the men of darkness? Funding the enemy and all that. There is an example of the enemy trying to trade the 'good' side. Sauron attempted to buy Rohirrim horses. They turned him down.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Was it wise for the Gondorians to trade with the men of darkness? Funding the enemy and all that.

Well, we buy oil from all sorts of unpleasant governments.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Was it wise for the Gondorians to trade with the men of darkness? Funding the enemy and all that. There is an example of the enemy trying to trade the 'good' side. Sauron attempted to buy Rohirrim horses. They turned him down.

Napoleon outfitted his armies with British made boots. (But they weren't Wellies.)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Was it wise for the Gondorians to trade with the men of darkness? Funding the enemy and all that. There is an example of the enemy trying to trade the 'good' side. Sauron attempted to buy Rohirrim horses. They turned him down.

Wise? Whenever did wisdom rule the day? Look what happened to the Land of the Star after they imported Sauron.

And note that the Black Riders, at the gates of the Dwarves and even to Sam's old Gaffer, look to trade gold and money (and Rings!) for information. And they did find the Shire, and so someone did the deal.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by He Who Has Fathered His Nest

Exactly. And surely some of the noble born - or at least their teenaged children - showed off by using/consuming items from banned nations. Not all were 100% loyal to the King/Country.

Alatar,as you appear to be our #1 Expert in Children--a title once held by Thenamir (whose brood now have I believe outgrown the roost)--I think you have fingered the less nefarious avenue for illicit trade. A surefire way to get teenagers to do something or want something is to ban it.

Originally Posted by The Big K

Elves seem the most likely to be the great weavers of Middle earth...but I don't think there is ever any mention of where they obtained their materials.

Yet trade can be so, well, like being a green grocer--at least to the English hupper classes. Doesn't strike me as part of elven aesthetics. So who would they get to do the toil? dwarves?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Alatar,as you appear to be our #1 Expert in Children--a title once held by Thenamir (whose brood now have I believe outgrown the roost)--I think you have fingered the less nefarious avenue for illicit trade. A surefire way to get teenagers to do something or want something is to ban it.

It's either that or that I see the worst in people, being cynical and all.

Also, you always () have to assume that nothing's 100% and that there's always those on the fringe that are following a different directive. And what of the Kinstrife? What trade commenced during that time, and what continued afterwards? Isn't blood thicker than water, and money thicker than both?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yet trade can be so, well, like being a green grocer--at least to the English hupper classes. Doesn't strike me as part of elven aesthetics. So who would they get to do the toil? dwarves?

I don't know about that. There were the raft-elves in The Hobbit, for example.

As far as trading with the Men of Darkness goes...I think it boils down to why people trade at all. It really almost seems instinctive.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't know about that. There were the raft-elves in The Hobbit, for example.

Well, yes, but, there is that chestnut about The Hobbit not exactly belonging or fitting in well with the Legendarium. Tra la la la lally.

As far as trading with the Men of Darkness goes...I think it boils down to why people trade at all. It really almost seems instinctive.

Do you mean instinctive in terms of built into their genes (or evolved) or do you mean part of the inheritance from the initial music/creation?

Originally Posted by alatar

Isn't blood thicker than water, and money thicker than both?

I'll take wine please. I believe there were some countries to the east known for such beverages.

[Kuruharan]

Well, yes, but, there is that chestnut about The Hobbit not exactly belonging or fitting in well with the Legendarium.

Maybe, but the fact remains that Tolkien did attempt to incorporate it.

Do you mean instinctive in terms of built into their genes (or evolved) or do you mean part of the inheritance from the initial music/creation?

I'm not sure. I guess it depends on where you think the instinct of "Oh they have neat stuff...how can I get that neat stuff" comes from.