Concerning the Witch King

[Kransha]

Hello all. I'm new here and looking forward to posting on these forums.

*hoping this topic is in the right forum*
When I first read Return of the King there was a passage concerning the "demise" of the Witch King of Angmar which puzzled me.

But lo! The mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up and was never heard again in that age of the world

(Note: If you didn't guess, the italics are my own doing)

So, the Witch King of Angmar fell. Not by man but by woman and hobbit was he slain...or was he? Tolkien says that the voice of the Nazgul Lord died and his hauberk and mantle lay empty. Almost never in his writing does he actually state that he is truly dead. The other Ringwraiths were apparently consumed by the flames of Mount Doom's eruption, but their leader fled the plane of existence on Pelennor Fields. Perhaps, if the situation were right, the Witch King (not the other wraiths) could return, despite the fact that Sauron's power was broken, bla bla bla, etc.

This may be a foolish notion, but I wanted to hear the thoughts of others on the matter. I supposed originally that Tolkein was implying the wraith's death, but why would he be so specific about saying that last phrase.

Your thoughts?

[Iris Alantiel]

Heyyyy . . . I never really noticed that. You're right, it doesn't actually say the Witch King was dead there. If he was never heard again in that age of the world, does that imply that he was heard again in other ages? That's interesting; I always just assumed that meant he was dead, but you're right that Tolkien does choose a peculiar phrase that seems to suggest the possibility for the Witchking's return. (Hmm, I smell an awesome fanfic . . . ) I applaud you for catching that. I'll have to look more closely when I reread this summer - does anybody know of anywhere in the books where it actually says he is *slain*?

On a personal note, welcome to the Downs, Kransha. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Noxomanus]

It's been mentioned before,but it wasn't resolved if memory serves me well.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Well, I think that it is well implied that he is dead. An author doesn't always have to use the words "and he died" or "and so he was dead" to get the point across.
I think it's rather clear that he is dead.

[Kransha]

Well, I had thought that death was implied, but it was an interesting premise that the Witch King might just have fled (somehow) when he knew he was beaten.

Thank you for replying and dignifying my noob ears with a response.

[lathspell]

Kransha, you've got a very interesting point here, and I would like to give you my opinion on the matter.

Almost never in his writing does he actually state that he is truly dead.

I think Tolkien deliberately didn't lable the Witch-king as 'dead', because the Witch-king was already an undead. The dead do not die! I believe it is mentioned that whenever the Ring is destroyed, the Ring-wraiths, just as Sauron, would become shades. Still wraiths but with no power left, never again to take form or grow to strength.

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: Kransha, you say (in the phrase I took from your post) that Tolkien 'almost never' stated the Witch-king dead. Does this mean that you have found a text somewhere in which Tolkien writes he died or is this just a figure of speech from you?

[Kransha]

I guess it's more of a figure of speech. I said that because I'm positive that I haven't read every work of Tolkein that relates to the topic, so I didn't want to bar the possibility that he hadn't mentioned the Witch King's death somewhere.

The shade thing does make more sense, though. Since Sauron's power was undone, the power of the wraiths was too. Thanks for clearing that up.

[lathspell]

Glad to have been of help!

[Oroaranion]

I presume that he was completely defeated because *runs for copy of LotR* Glorfindel says

Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.

in Appendix A, part iv.

Doom usually implies that this is the end of somthing. I think that even if the Witch-King had survived, he would not do very well without his master, Sauron, after the fall.

[lathspell]

Goodday Oroaranion!

Yes, I thought of Glofindel's prophecy as well, but that only speaks of the person bringing his downfall. It does never say when or where and therefor I find it a rather inadequate quote in this context, because of the question, being: will he be back in the FA? And the quote doesn't answer that, because when Merry stabbed the Witch-King, and Eowyn after him, you cannot be entirely sure that this was the doom Glorfindel spoke about.

Yet I do agree with you that the Witch-King could not have come back in the FA, reason being as said in my first post and which you also put in your reply.

greetings,
lathspell