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King's Writer
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A long time since I posted the second section of these, but better late then never. So here it goes:
Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned below (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text source information, comments and remarks { } = text that should be deleted [ ] = normalised text <source > = additions with source information example = text inserted for garmatical reason / / = outline expansion The basic text is that of The Tale of the Nauglafring. Since full-text quoting is not appropirate any longer, I will only give the starting words of each paragraph of the basic text and all editions or delitions, but not the regular changes. §30 (§21) Now tells the tale that the Nauglath fared home again, and if their greed had been kindled when first RD-AM-01 <editorial addition they saw> the gold{ was brought to Nogrod} now was it a fierce flame of desire, and moreover they burnt under the insults of the king. Indeed all that folk love gold and silver more dearly than aught else on Earth, while that treasury was haunted by a spell and by no means were they armed against it. Now RD-AM-02 { one there had been, Fangluin the aged, who had Counselled them from the first never to return the king's loan, for said he: ‘Ufedhin we may later seek by guile to release, if it seem good,’ but at that time this seemed not policy to Naugladur their lord, who desired not warfare with the Elves.Yet now} did Fangluin <moved from above the aged> jeer at them mightily on their return, saying they had flung away their labour for a botcher's wage and a draught of wine and gotten dishonour thereto, and he played upon their lust{, and Ufedhin joined his bitter words thereto}. Therefore did Naugladur<moved from above their lord> hold a secret council of the Dwarves of Nogrod, and sought how he might both be avenged upon {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and sate his greed. §31 (§22) Yet after long pondering ... such come thither RD-AM-03{ unaided by treachery from within}. §32 (§23) Now even as those aged ones sat ... nor more than RD-AM-04 {Ufedhin}[the Elves] might tell hearing the speech in {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls, ... §33 (§24) This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves RD-AM-05 {, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the kin of Melko}. Secretly he let send to the {Indrafangs}[Firebeards] RD-AM-06 asking<Sil77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied them, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose>, because they <Unfinished Tales; Galadriel and Celeborn were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome>{ that they}. But the Broadbeams did prepare their host against a day that {he}[Naugladur] would name, whenso the time should be ripe; and a hidden forging of bitter steel then was in RD-AM-07 [Nogrod.]{Belegost the dwelling of the Indrafangs. Moreover he gathered about him a great host of the Orcs, and wandering goblins, promising them a good wage, and the pleasure of their Master moreover, and a rich booty at the end; and all these he armed with his own weapons.} Now came unto Naugladur an Elf, and he was one of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s folk, RD-AM-07 { and he offered to lead that host through the magics of Gwendelin,} for he was bitten by the gold-lust of {Glorund's}[Glaurung's] hoard, and so did the curse of Mîm come upon {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and treachery first arose among the Elves of {Artanor}[Doriath]. Then did Naugladur {[?}smile{]} bitterly, for he knew that the time was ripe and {Tinwelint}[Thingol] delivered to him. §34 (§25) Now each year about ... next high moon but one RD-AM-08 {, and straightway he sent the trysted sign, a bloodstained knife, to Bodruith at Belegost}. Now RD-AM-09 <editorial addition therefore> all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king. RD-AM-10 {§35 Now tells the tale that one came unto Tinwelint, and Tinwelint knew him not for the wild growth of his hair -- and lo! it was Mablung, and he said: ‘Lo, even in the depths of the forest have we heard that this year you will celebrate the death of Karkaras with a high-tide greater than even before, O King -- and behold I have returned to bear you company.’ And the king was full ofmirth and fain to greet Mablung the brave; and at the words of Mablung that Huan captain of Dogs was come also into Artanor was he glad indeed.} §36 (§26) Behold now {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king rode forth a-hunting, ... Beside him rode Mablung the Heavyhand in the place of honour by reason of his deeds at that great hunt aforetime RD-AM-11 { - but Huan of the Dogs was ahead of the hunters, and men thought that great dog bore him strangely, but mayhap there was something in the wind that day liked not}. §37a (§27) RD-AM-12 <HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}/No Tale tales how it was/ contrived that Thingol {is}/was/ lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders ><moved from below but there the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the Nauglath - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain. Yet in the end were they all fordone, and Mablung and the king fell side by side - but Naugladur it was who swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] after he was dead, for living he dared not so near to his bright sword or the axe of Mablung.> §37b (§28) RD-AM-13 {Now is} But now it must be told, that when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grow faint in the deep forest, {but}did {Gwendelin}[Melian] sit{s} in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems there is a rat that gnaws the threads and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word <moved from below did {Gwendelin}[Melian] see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of {Artanor}[Doriath], and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour;> RD-AM-14 and <Sil77 Melian sat long in silence beside <editorial addition the throne of> Thingol the King, and her thought passed back into the starlit years and to their first meeting among the nightingales of Nan Elmoth in ages past; and she knew that her parting from Thingol was the forerunner of a greater parting, and that the doom of Doriath was drawing nigh. For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwë Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Ilúvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda, and by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from the evils without. But now Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies. §37c (§29) Thereafter Melian spoke to none save to RD-AM-15 {Mablung}[Nielthi] only, bidding her{him take heed to the Silmaril, and} to send word speedily to Beren and Lúthien in Ossiriand; and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more. §38 (§30) Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and >there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel.{ Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower, and behold, a}And a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Nauglath] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown. §39 (§30) RD-AM-16 {Then did Gwendelin know well that her foreboding was true, and that treachery had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten those}Valiantly the few guards that remained{ to her} and had fared not to the hunt{, and valiantly they} warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves. §40 Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure RD-AM-17 .{, and lo! one came and sate ... but already is he come.’} And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. RD-AM-18 { Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but}And Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod RD-AM-19 { - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs keep, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady Gwendelin Queen of Artanor shall fare with me.’ … here we take out the next paragraph and the §-break Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook RD-AM-20 .{, and bib size her: ... here we take out the rest of these § and the next one until … And she said suddenly: ‘What evil then has fallen upon Artanor?’ and Huan said} §41 taken out §42 taken out As before the discussion wil follow in the next post. Respectfully Findegil [ November 16, 2003: Message edited by: Findegil ] Edited to change format. Last edited by Findegil; 07-26-2004 at 03:30 AM. |
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#2 | |||
King's Writer
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Discussion of my changes with a comparision to Maedhros version in the privat forum:
§30 Since Maedhros used the Sil77 version were the dwarves were driven from Menegroth by force and only a few returned, he used only the first sentences and then took up the Sil 77. His version of the § reads: Quote:
§32 I liked Meadhros new idea to insert here the asking for aid in Belegost, but I found his way to insert it awakward his § reads: Quote:
§33 Here I tokeup Meadhros idea of the denied aid form Belegost. Since Meadhros had already done so in §32 he did not make the additions from Sil77 and UT. He also toke out Narthseg which I would like to hold. His treachery is now only the time of the hunt, but that is an essential infrmation for Naugladur. $34 I only toke out the sign to the Indrafagns. While Maedhros but the part of the knowledge of Naugladur of that hunt on the end of §33. §35 I don't understand why Meadhros toke out only half of the §. If Mablung was out in the forest he could come to Thingol with wild grown hair. But as I precived Mablung he was often in Menegroth and that he would participat in memorial hunt is quite natural. So I take the § out. §36 & §37a Meadhros § reads: Quote:
§37b - §42 Meadhros toke Melian as the Messanger for Beren and Lúthien. But when she would be smart enough to tell Beren the story so that he could revenge Thingol, why would she lift the girdle? I think she must leave Middle-Earth at once when Thingol is dead. For me that is what the note in The Tale of the Years means. §37b & §37c I let the talk to the Elven maid Nielthi stand and I even used she later as the one Melian would tell to seek Beren and Luthien. Since Mablung is killed beside the king. §38 I toke the tale of the invasion from the Sil77 and fitted it in here. §39 Melian is already gone in my version of this §. §40 As above, so the § is much shorter and only takes up the laughter of Naugladur from further below. §41 & §42 Since Melian is gone nothing is left in Version of these §§. Respectfully Findegil |
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#3 | |
King's Writer
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This is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).
We have three groups of changes: RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers" RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text. RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference. At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text. I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered. As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks { } = text that should be deleted [ ] = normalised text <source > = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical reason / / = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly. Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood. Quote:
Findegil |
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The Kinslayer
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I would add the following parragraph between 34 and 36: Quote:
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The part that is in bold to me it is weird. On another note, I think that it is interesting the way you attributed the deeds of Ufedhin to the dwarves. I wonder if Aiwendil will be ok with that. I am.
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#5 | |
King's Writer
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§33 kin -> following: kin of Morogth in the old concept of Orcs called "children of Morogth" is acceptable, nut know I find it very odd, after eben Gothmog as his son was scipt. Maybe my understanding of "kin" is to limited.
§35 I thought about that myself, and if we will include it, I would also retain the "wild growth of his hair" since it would so nicely backflash to Túrin and Saeros and I can't see a problem when a warrior returns from the border fight that he is uncempt and thereby unrecognisable - but as yet we have meet Mablung in Doriath ever at Menegroth. He was the cheife thane of Thingol and not the head of the border forces (that was Beleg as long as he lived). So in my view it was dubious if we would not introduce a change in the role of Mablung, coming back to the king (obviously from the broder fights in the circumstances of the later Doriath). But I might be overinterpreting in this. And I am open for the addition, if you and Aiwendil think it is okay. §37a these hunt -> the hunt: I wanted to make the back reference that it is more clear. But when when you find it odd, we can as well takt "the". §37b the name Nielthi: I am fare from an expert in Sindarin, I do not even no the basics, so I don't know. If the name is not use able it is easy to make her an anonymous maiden of Melian. §37b Melians comment on the unwoven web: Since we have taken Q30 as a basis here, we have the girdle removed while Melian is in Menegroth. I considered taht sentence for delition, but I could find no reason why Melian would not answer in such a pictures way when forbonding was heavy on her. But the "rat that gnaws the threads" does hint at the treacherous elfs of TN, therefore the change. You yourself suggested, that she lost control over the girdle because here conection to it was through Thingol, thus I found the "riven thread" a fitting replacment. Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#6 | ||
The Kinslayer
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__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#7 | |
King's Writer
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As promised in the **Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** I will provide the Death of Thingol as it could be without Mablung and with the note taken into account. §35 as suggested by Maédhros above must be left out also:
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Findegil |
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#8 | ||||||||||||||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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RD-EX-49: Nauglath > Naugrim again.
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RD-SL-20 I don't see the need for this deletion. We have changed the story so as to eliminate in actual fact the treachery of the Elves. But this is just a general statement that without the aid of treachery from within, the Girdle cannot be breached. I'm just slightly perplexed here: Quote:
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RD-EX-55 The "did" for past tense here sounds a bit awkward to me (and this is an editorial addition if I read it right). I would rather say: Quote:
Same thing here. Quote:
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I don't understand the addition of "at that time". Quote:
The addition from TY is, of course, awkward. The phrase "somehow it must be contrived" was obviously never intended to stand in any narrative, and it's straightforward replacement "somehow they contrived it" is no better. But I suppose any emendation would have to be called stylistic. Nevertheless, I would in at least this particular case prefer a minor fix, like: Quote:
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This long addition from QS77: does it have a source? If so, I'd rather follow the source than the '77. If not, I don't see any need to use all this text of CRT's invention here. We could, in fact cut straight from "Even at that word" to "Thingol lay dead", so: Quote:
Again - wouldn't it be preferrable to use Q here rather than the '77? We shouldn't use CRT's text simply because we prefer it or because it's more vivid. RD-EX-63 Quote:
Also, another Nauglath > Naugrim here. §40b (§25) Quote:
Thinking about the storyline discussion again, I wonder whether it would be better to attempt an ambiguity as to whether the girdle failed because Melian departed or Melian departed because the Girdle failed. We could add at the end of §37b (§21) a simple statement that Melian departed, and then remove her from the following material (which would necessitate significant curtailment) - that, I think, would achieve such an ambiguity. The names "Naugladur", "Bodruith", and "Nielthi" all need thought ("Fangluin" is another old name, but I think it works fine in later Sindarin). I will research the latter two when I get a chance. "Naugladur" is interesting. If it is to be fit into later Sindarin it surely must mean "Dwarf-servant". One could suppose that it was a later name used anachronistically here, given because he entered into the service of Thingol (if only through his craftsmen). But all other "-dur" names I can think of denote friendship or service to the first element in the name. "Isildur" means "servant of the Moon", not "a Moon that is also a servant". So "Naugladur" ought to mean "servant of the Dwarves" - a very curious name for the lord of Belegost. But that may be irrelevant. It's hard to see how the name fits, but unless some other etymology exists in Gnomish (and not in Sindarin), this is Tolkien's problem, not ours. Last edited by Aiwendil; 01-06-2005 at 10:23 AM. |
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#9 | ||||||||||||
King's Writer
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RD-EX-51 Are you sure that "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." is what you want? I would at least add a "now" after the "and":
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RD-SL-18: "them" -> "him": Agreed. "the Indrafangs" -> "Lord Bodruith his kin" or "Belegost": I did insert Bodruith here because his name would be lost otherwise. But if the name bears a problem, as you thing it does, than this was a cacophany idea, and we will rather take "Belegost". RD-EX-55 & RD-EX-56: Agreed. RD-EX-58: Without the addition the § would read: Quote:
§37a: "a hunt" -> "the hunt": Agreed. The addition from TY: I agree that your sentece does read better, beside the fact that we should delet the "and" at the end of the first sentence. But is the lose of "Somehow" wanted? I think we should retain it. It the clearest statment that we do not know, even more that Tolkien did not know. If we skip it it reads as if we do simple not tell, not indicating at all if we know how they did it or not. Thus I suggest: Quote:
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But that might be wrong in view of TY and the famous note. I have rereade the development from Ab1 through Ab2 and the many stages of TY to the famous note. In other places I have argued that the phrases used do not change and that the lose of some details in TY is thus only caused by compresion. The same seems to be true here but teh note does change this. AB2 is in agrement with Q30: Quote:
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I will still go one with the comments to Aiwendils points since not all will be lost by the earlier depature of Melian. RD-EX-60: If we write "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company,. ..." we would jump back in the timeline without a clear indication. I think we need at least "Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, ..." "... {there is a rat that gnaws}the threads [are riven] ...": Agreed. RD-EX-61: The long addition from Sil77 has no direct source as fare as I know. If you think we should not use it then we will skip it. For the new versin of it see further down. RD-EX-62: We have no other source for a the invasion into Doriath of the dwarves after the death of Thingol, beside the pure statment in the note. Thus I think the additon from Sil77 is needed her. And as fare as I have understood the old discussion between you and Lindil such addition are allowed in such circumstances. RD-EX-63: Sorry, I can't see your point here. The "cry" that grew to "a firece noise by the clash of steel" did not strike me as grammaticaly bad, other than that a cry does not grew by additional noises. But any way you are more likely to know your gramma then I am. so if you want a change we will make one, but the change of "by" -> "of" is very awakward, in my view by the duplication of "of" in such a short distance. §40b: Quote:
About the names: Naugladur: Can it not be meant as: "Obsessed (devoted) servant of the Dwarvish interrests". Such a meaning would very well fit the role he plays in RoD. Bodruith: His name is not part of text as edited by us, if we do not insert him. So I think it would be better to skip him then to update the name. Nielthi: Don't spent to much time on her name. It isn't a problem to skip the name but retain the role she plays anonymus. What follows is the text for the story of Melian departing imidiatly after Thingols death: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 01-03-2005 at 05:55 AM. |
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#10 | |||||
The Kinslayer
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Regarding this: Quote:
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__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#11 | ||||
King's Writer
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Posted by Maédhros:
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Regarding your changes in §40a and §40c: I could not find any change introduced by you in §40a. Please explain what you meant to change. In §40c I found an error in my editing which I have corrected (bad idea I know, sorry) (The halfe sentence "{ and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode{and}" must not be added, if we are going to delet it, and the "{" before RD-SL-23 had slipt in unintentionly.) To make things cleraer I will give my text here in plain text Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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#12 | |||||||||
Late Istar
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RD-EX-51:
Findegil wrote: Quote:
RD-SL-20: I was talking about this: Quote:
RD-EX-58 Findegil wrote: Quote:
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Actually, though, I don't really see "somehow" as doing any canonical or story-line work. What is the difference between "they contrived it" and "somehow they contrived it"? If "they contrived it" then clearly "somehow they contrived it". And why should it be so important that we indicate to the reader that we do not know the precise manner of the contrivance? I see nothing wrong with simply stating that "they contrived it" and nothing more. The problem I see with removing "somehow" is another one - specifically, it seems to me to be a stylistic revision, and that is something we have specifically decided not to engage in. Yet we have already accepted minimal emendations that are surely stylistic; and clearly the sentence as we have it is not something Tolkien would have let stand in a narrative. So in the end I lean toward my former proposal, removing "somehow". Findegil wrote: Quote:
RD-EX-60 Findegil wrote: Quote:
But I do see now (looking at TN) that we are making a jump backward in time that is not made in the original. So if you and Maedhros feel that the "wehn" is necessary, I can accept it. RD-EX-63 Findegil wrote: Quote:
§40b Findegil wrote: Quote:
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In most cases, it is the deletion of a piece of text that brings it away from Tolkien's intention, and that's why it's normally advisable to keep as much as we can. But we see that in cases like this one, the retention of the text brings it away from Tolkien's intention, because though the words are retained, their meaning is altered. That's why I want to delete the reference to the Orcs. About names: Naugladur can surely stand. Nielthi: I'm not sure what the etymology of this would be, but at least there are no phonological problems that I'm aware of. It can stand. Bodruith: I remember now my objection to the name. According to "Names in the Lost Tales" in II, GL glosses "bodruith" as "revenge". Christopher Tolkien speculates (quite plausibly, I think) that the Lord of Belegost received this name as a result of his actions in TN. Since this part has been removed from our version, I would drop the name. |
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#13 | ||||
King's Writer
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RD-EX-51:
If you say the sentence is grammatically okay I can accept that with some reluctance. In that case every thing we would do seems to be an stylistic change. But the awkwardness of the sentence was, in my view at least, brought about by our deletions. Wouldn't it be possible to change the word order: "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and he did{ he} jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." For me that sounds much more natural. RD-SL-20: I have accepted that we do not use any treason by elves from Doriath, but with this phrase we would turn the story to its head. Do you agree with me, that based on the sources we have JRR Tolkien denied the possibility that treason would overcome the girdle? Now what you suggest, would mean that the Dwarves did see a chance to over come the girdle of Melian if they could have found a traitor from Doriath. This believe of the Dwarves would not be gainsaid in our text at all. The simplest interpretation of such an text would be, that the Dwarves did not find a traitor. This would deny even the possibility of treason among the Sindar as the story goes. In my view that would makes the story to explicit. RD-EX-58: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
§37a: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Tolkien surely would not have used the words as they stand now, but it is more than likely that he would have device the way by which the dwarves managed to lure Thingol outside the girdle, if ever he had written the story. But we are not Tolkien and we will not device that way. Thus, as it is, we are left only with the statement that nobody (not even Tolkien, who without any doubt had the greatest knowledge of all about Middle-Earth) did know the "how". I think that we should make that clear, and in my view the least we should do, is stick to that "somehow". If you find that better we could expand it like this: Quote:
Okay, so we all agree that she must leave before the dwarves attack. It would be nice to hear if you both do agree with my second version of that story given in post #11 at the end. RD-EX-60: I at least feel a strong desire to introduce that "when". RD-EX-63: Okay, you took a different view to the sentence. Now at long last, I see your problem. I the problem I have is that with your options the growing cry becomes more strange to me. What if we try to find a word to fit the lacunae? I suggest: "But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise {...}enforced by the clash of steel." §40: Good arguments. I agree, that in view of them we should skip the Orcs. Thus we will get: Quote:
Naugladur: That's nice. Nielthi: Do we need an etymology for each and every name we want to hold? Bodruith: Agreed he is skipped out of our version. Respectfully Findegil |
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#14 | |||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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RD-EX-51
Findegil wrote: Quote:
RD-SL-20 We ought to try to be clear about this. Why did we delete the element of the treachery? I can think of two possible reasons: 1. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery would not be sufficient to bypass the Girdle. 2. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery is impossibly unlikely. I had thought that our justification for the change was 2. If this is the case, then nothing has altered the fact that Elvish treachery would overcome the Girdle, and so the hypothetical statement would be fine. But perhaps it is not so clear that reason 2 was our justification. If 1 is also a concern, then I agree that the line should be dropped. §37a I must say again that I don't see the "somehow" as doing any good for us. Your expanded proposal ("No tale tells . . .") is better in that regard. But I wonder whether it's going too far - besides the fact that it alters the text, it invents the fact that no tale tells more of the luring of Thingol outside the Girdle. But surely the full tale of the Necklace of the Woe of Thingol does give a full account. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If I understand what you intend, would perhaps this work: Quote:
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#15 |
King's Writer
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RD-EX-51:
The Original sentence reads "Yet now did Fangluin jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." and this clearly is less awkward then "... and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." or not. Our changes were made to in cooperate the descriptive introduction of Fangluin the aged with his action at the return of the smiths. After reading again the original, I think we should use "...and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." It is even nearer to the original than to leave out the "now". Is that a way we are all happy with? RD-SL-20: It took use a long time to workout that difference in the reasons for leaving the treacherous Elves out! Reason 1 is the only valid point in my view. If treachery would have been sufficient to bypass the Girdle, then I do not see why JRR Tolkien would have felt any need to change the story at all. Treachery of Elves by Elves was one of the things spoken of in the prophecy of the north and Thingol had enmeshed himself and his realm in the doom of the Noldor by taking the Silmaril. Thus I don't think it is in any way impossible for the Elves of Doriath to be treacherous. Thus I still think the line should be dropped. §37a: Point taken. “No tale tells …” is to much writing our point of view into the story. On the other hand it is really true: There was never a tale written that did tell this “how”. What about a clearer statement of the Narrator: “In these later days it is not known how …”? But I don’t think that will do. In the end if you are adamant on skipping the “somehow” I can go with that, since the passage will clearly be discussed at length in the Appendix to this chapter. And there we can much clearer say what we could only hint at in the text, that Tolkien never wrote down how he envisaged the luring of the dwarves and possibly never made up his mind about that point. Concerning Melians departure: If you agree to it we will take my second proposal. Then Melian departed -> Thus Melian departed: Agreed. RD-EX-63: “enforced” was only the best I could find, which was not good in itself. “strengthened” is okay for me. Respectfully Findegil |
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#16 |
Late Istar
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RD-EX-51
I think that perhaps I misread the original. The deletion of "Yet now" does seem to make it more awkward. We can use " . . . and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return". RD-SL-20 It seems the point was clear in your mind, then; but it is not so to me. I wonder what Maedhros thinks. In any case, I don't think that the prophecy of the North has such bearing on the Sindar; it foretold treachery among the Noldor, not among all Elves. §37a "No tale tells": is it really true? It is externally - that is, no text written by Tolkien gives us the proper tale. But if we make the statement in the text, its purport is internal. That is, it would assert that no tale written in Arda tells how the Dwarves contrived the luring of Thingol. This is not likely to be true, considering the existence of the Atanatarion. |
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#17 | ||
King's Writer
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RD-SL-20:
Yes it would be good to have a third minds input here, I think. But I like to add, that it is the safer way in view of canon to skip hypotetical possibility to ofercome the girdle by treason. §37a: I am aware of the problem of internal statment made on an external fact. Therefore my suggestion in the last post. But as said there already, in view of an appendix talking about the external problems we had with the §, I can live with loosing the "somehow". Thus we should take: Quote:
This was the message of the Death of Mîm that did increase the wrath of the Naugrim. This point gnawed at me since we settled our discussion on it with the decision to skip any mention of it. I did recently reread the passage that Aiwendil and Maedhros used against it, and I will give it here to anyone to read: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#18 | |||||
The Kinslayer
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#19 | |||
King's Writer
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FD-SL-19:
I treid to reread that discussion myself after I did the post, but could find not more in the **Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** than Aiwendils remark in post #54 Quote:
Quote:
Thus the discussion is a bit more open than I thought: Aiwendil put in some doubts, that I now try to dispel. If I succed with that I would bring in the following changes: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#20 | ||
The Kinslayer
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I'm ok with the new additions but I would use instead:
Quote:
I liked the addition from Unfinished Tales. Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#21 |
Late Istar
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RD-SL-20: If there is any doubt, then you are right, it's safer to drop it.
RD-SL-19: I think that Findegil is right; my reservation about the news of Mim's death was an overreaction. |
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#22 |
King's Writer
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Then this section is done and we can start with last section of chapter.
I will start that with some further changes that came lately to my attention. Respectfully Findegil |
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#23 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Oct 2007
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I know that the discussion about this topic finished a long time ago, but I've started to post here because I am myself trying to reconstruct the structure of a "new" fall of Doriath.
So far I've managed to collect the narrative from the old tale and I'm processing it with the following operations: - Update of Names - Division in Chapters - Deletion of Major Inconsistencies - Integration with some parts of the Q30 I would be very glad to see your complete version before trying to post some comments on that topic. If that cannot be done...I'll try to discuss them without comparing our versions (if that doesn't represent a problem for you) Thanks, Emrys |
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#24 |
King's Writer
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Hi Emrys,
have you read your Private Message? If not please do so. Seeing your interest my offer does include FoD from now on. We are of course interested to compare your ideas with our work and it would be much easier for us if you could make the comparision. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 11-07-2007 at 11:58 AM. |
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#25 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Probably you have already discussed all this matters for long, but, since I've started to make my own RoD before the discovery of your forum, I'll try to express my comments on this matter here.
Having partly read your version I'll start with some general comment on it. I don't know if this is in line with the philosophy of this project but I would have tried to preserve as much Tolkien text as possible so some questions: 1) Why Eliminating Ufedhin while reteaning the treacherous elves? To me the deletion of this character from the Quenta is just a matter of compression I would have retained him. 2) Why using parts of Sil77 Fall of Doriath since it does not contain any original tolkien text? As we know, Tolkien tried to replace the original tale of the Fall of Doriath many times but never found a solution to the problem that the girdle of Melian can't be passed by enemies. Nonetheless this tale represent the only complete text and it doesn't contraddict the latest scripts of Tolkien (TY) in any way with the exception of some minor changes (name changes, replacement of Huan with Melian, replacement of Orcs and Belegost Dwarves with Nogrod Dwarves). The rest of the story thus can be taken with almost no exception and with minor integrations from other texts. This is my general point of view. Maybe if you like in the following days I'll try to post puntual comments... - Emrys - |
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#26 |
Late Istar
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Regarding your first point: perhaps you have misunderstood something. In our version, both Ufedhin and the treacherous Elves are out. As far as I'm concerned there are two main reasons for this:
1. The absence of this element in all subsequent writings (most notably the Quenta). 2. The fact that in TY Tolkien seems to see the penetration of the Girdle by the Dwarves as an unsolved problem - and that the solution he eventually projected (that Thingol is induced to go to war beyond the borders and is there slain) was entirely different from the earlier version. Now, one could argue that the first point is due to compression (though the absence of such a notable makes that view quite disputable). But it seems to me that in any case, the second point is still forcing. About your second point: I believe (I may be recalling incorrectly) that we ended up using very little text from the '77 Silmarillion in our version. In any case, the major plot elements invented by Christopher Tolkien for that version were all rejected. If you'd like to address some of the specific instances where we use the '77 (and perhaps suggest alternatives), your thoughts would of course be welcome. |
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#27 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Quote:
Let me try to summerize Lost Tales Thingol (counseled by Ufedhin) summon the dwarves Thingol quarrel with the dwarves The Dwarves go to war (and aided by Treacerous elves) kill Thingol in the woods The Dwarves aided by the same elves invade Doriath Melian (older version) escape to Beren Your Version Thingol Summons the dwarves Thingol quarrel with the dwarves The dwarves go to war the find thingol in the woods and kill him Melian became mad and the girdle is removed Now this two version to me seem to be very close (correct me if I'm wrong) but in the new version: Ufedhin is removed (Tolkien don't mention him but I think that by removing him a very nice fragment will be lost) The Treacherous elves are removed (but the fact that Tolkien didn't like this solution doesn't mean that he would have finally abandoned it) Melian go away before all the realm his lost (which is not what I expect her to do) That said I would have taken in the final story both Ufedhin and the treacherous elves for these main reasons: 1) I read the original story after the necessary modifications (Update of Names, Remove of Huan and Dwarves of Belegost, etc?) and I found that it doesn't contraddict Tolkien final thoughts in many parts and also it is a very nice story 2) Retaining that version imply very few modifications on the original tolkien text. Next time If you think the discussion to be useful I'll try to post puntual comments starting from WoH... A question: I have made a text without your standard codifications (because I started before discovering this site); can I quote some rows of text without this coding or do you prefer I enter this references in the text before posting? Thanks for your reply Emrys |
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#28 |
King's Writer
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Please go ahead and post your specific critics. I don't mind to find your version without the markers for edited parts we used, but it would be nice if you could at least refer to them in the comments you make to the passages you give. That would make it make much easier for us to identify the spots we are talking about.
The thread 2**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** holds most of the discussion to the 2 points you brought up. Respectfully Findegil |
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#29 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Armenelos
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Quote:
Even so, the problem of final -i in mature Sindarin is enough to cause the name to be entirely dropped in my opinion, especially in the case of such a minor character whose name is only used a couple times. I very much doubt that Nielthi's name was intended to be the infinitive form of a verb *nielth-, which is the only thing it could be in Sindarin as later envisioned by Tolkien. An adjective form Nielthui might work, but this would be rather pointless: the name, while working with the morphophonology of later Sindarin, would be changed unnecessarily from the original, and its meaning wouldn't be at all clear. But if you want to retain it, I believe that is the only way it could be done. Again, better to just eliminate it altogether.
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"Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you." —Eru Ilúvatar Last edited by Tar-Telperien; 12-02-2007 at 06:39 PM. |
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#30 | |
King's Writer
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What you suggests, Tar-Telperien, is:
Quote:
Findegil |
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#31 |
Animated Skeleton
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Yes, I do suggest that. It works well enough, better than an obsolete Sindarin name.
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"Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you." —Eru Ilúvatar |
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#32 |
Late Istar
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I also can find no Sindarin names ending in -i (after an admittedly quick search). I suppose there's sufficient doubt about the name, then, that it should be excised.
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#33 |
King's Writer
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Okay, this point is done.
Thanks for the good catch Tar-Telperien! Respectfully Findegil |
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