The Best Adaptions

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Okay this has been bugging me for days...
What are the best movie adaptions for the LOTR characters in the Peter Jackson movies?
I would say Sam.

[MatthewM]

What kind of specifics do you mean? Do you mean which character was portrayed the best from book to film? If that is the question...I suppose I would say...hm...it's funny how come to think of it, I have some sort of issue portrayal wise with every main character, especially those of The Fellowship...so I guess I would say Bilbo. Out of The Fellowship, I would agree and say Sam.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

What kind of specifics do you mean? Do you mean which character was portrayed the best from book to film? If that is the question...I suppose I would say...hm...it's funny how come to think of it, I have some sort of issue portrayal wise with every main character, especially those of The Fellowship...so I guess I would say Bilbo. Out of The Fellowship, I would agree and say Sam.

Yes I do mean which character was portrayed from book to film...and I would say Bilbo as well... I wonder why I didn't think of him before?

[alatar]

I'm going to agree with y'all that it's Sam. He's most true to the books, at least to my memory. He's not portrayed as over-whiny as is Frodo, completely messed up as is Gandalf, and 'literalized' as is the Big Eye.

I wouldn't agree with Bilbo as he ages too quickly and seemed too fearful when he plays his 'trick' at his birthday party.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

I'm going to agree with y'all that it's Sam. He's most true to the books, at least to my memory. He's not portrayed as over-whiny as is Frodo, completely messed up as is Gandalf, and 'literalized' as is the Big Eye.

I wouldn't agree with Bilbo as he ages too quickly and seemed too fearful when he plays his 'trick' at his birthday party.

Do you mean Gandalf the Grey is "completely messed up" or Gandalf the White? The Grey I liked; the White I thought too much like Roy Rogers. (But then I don't particularly like The White in the Book.)

Funnily enough, I think Boromir was credibly portrayed.

Treebeard was pretty good in the Movie too, as I recall.

Any takers for Eowyn or even Grima (except he was completely cut out of any credible ending)?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Boromir was best. I didn't like how Sam repeatedly punched Gollum during the whole lembas saga. I thought crazy-Sam was a bad addition.

[Hammerhand]

I'll side with Boromir on this one; mainly because Sean Bean is a fantastic actor, he is worthy of more leading roles i believe.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Do you mean Gandalf the Grey is "completely messed up" or Gandalf the White? The Grey I liked; the White I thought too much like Roy Rogers. (But then I don't particularly like The White in the Book.)

Never ate at RR, nor am I very familiar with the works of Leonard Franklin Slye. That being said, I too liked the Grey until he got all confused after Rivendell ("Let's take the Ring past Orthanc as Moria is just too spooky for me.") By the time Gandalf becomes the White, it's mostly over - he has a good moment in Fangorn but then relies on everyone else (Aragorn, Pippin) to carry his load. Grrr!

Funnily enough, I think Boromir was credibly portrayed.

Boromir was portrayed *better* than in the Books, and so I exclude him from the list.

Treebeard was pretty good in the Movie too, as I recall.

alatar's coworkers all 'take a break' as he has started screaming at his monitor.

Any takers for Eowyn or even Grima (except he was completely cut out of any credible ending)?

Eowyn Shieldmaiden I liked, Chef Eowyn was too much. Even I can cook stew. Grima was okay, but in his end is too much the dog for me.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by alatar

Boromir was portrayed *better* than in the Books, and so I exclude him from the list.

I disagree a little, in the films he seems to be depicted lesser than his true identity. Being saved in the battle in Moria by Aragorn and being slain by one Uruk Hai archer. When in the book it was multiple archers that fired like thirty or forty something into him to stay him. PJ probably changed the latter to be more "realistic", but still, you get my drift.

As a person, i think Boromir is portrayed just about as he is in the book. Obviously not everything from the book was included in the production but the parts that were, i feel, captured Boromir well.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

As a person, i think Boromir is portrayed just about as he is in the book. Obviously not everything from the book was included in the production but the parts that were, i feel, captured Boromir well.

Obviously I would willingly defend Sean Bean (as an actor) to the death, but I still felt as if Movie!Boromir had some problems. For one, Book!Boromir always seemed a lot like Aragorn, to me. His whole demeanor was very calm, very unfazed, perhaps a little more easily threatening... but Movie!Boromir was very easily agitated, quick to suspect other people, grumpy... pretty much your iconoclastic Bean character, actually. PJ almost managed to balance that unfriendliness with Boromir's apparent friendship with Merry and Pippin. Yet Sean Bean's use of Boromir's lines (for example, the scene where he tries to take the Ring from Frodo) are so differently connotated.
I think the defining moment for Movie!Boromir was when he and Aragorn argue about the Ring, just before they come to the Argonaths on the Anduin: "I would not lead the Ring within a hundred leagues of your city!" Right then, Boromir's face becomes a SUPER POUT. Much as I love Sean Bean, I could never have imagined Book!Boromir looking like that childish.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Any takers for Eowyn or even Grima (except he was completely cut out of any credible ending)?

Faramir and Eowyn were my two favorite characters in the books... yet it wasn't until RotK that I started liking either of them in the movies. I refer people back to "What Happened to Gallant Captain Faramir?", because that's pretty much how I feel about a lot of the characters: by changing plot points and personalities (*cough*Frodo*cough*), PJ and the writers stripped other characters of their ability to function the same way as they did in the book. For example, because Aragorn was younger and less stern in the movies, Eowyn was a lot more susceptible to his "manly" attractions, and became a slightly weaker character herself. Amplification effect, I guess.

I know this was supposed to be the best characters, not the worst. Sorry!
All in all, I think Pippin was nailed pretty well, particularly as far as FotR goes. Obviously all four Hobbits were dumber in the movies, but Pippin, being the youngest and the most foolish, got away with it more, even up to being in Minas Tirith with Gandalf. Sam would probably be my second choice.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

Obviously I would willingly defend Sean Bean (as an actor) to the death, but I still felt as if Movie!Boromir had some problems. For one, Book!Boromir always seemed a lot like Aragorn, to me. His whole demeanor was very calm, very unfazed, perhaps a little more easily threatening... but Movie!Boromir was very easily agitated, quick to suspect other people, grumpy... pretty much your iconoclastic Bean character, actually. PJ almost managed to balance that unfriendliness with Boromir's apparent friendship with Merry and Pippin. Yet Sean Bean's use of Boromir's lines (for example, the scene where he tries to take the Ring from Frodo) are so differently connotated.
I think the defining moment for Movie!Boromir was when he and Aragorn argue about the Ring, just before they come to the Argonaths on the Anduin: "I would not lead the Ring within a hundred leagues of your city!" Right then, Boromir's face becomes a SUPER POUT. Much as I love Sean Bean, I could never have imagined Book!Boromir looking like that childish.

There are some very sound points there.

[MatthewM]

No, no, no.

Boromir was definitely not the best portrayed from book to film. It gets to me when people think this- there are so many things that are blatantly different between book Boromir and PJ's Boromir. Some Beanamir pointed out. In hopes to shift all of your opinions who say Boromir was best portrayed from book to film, let's start with appearance.

Book Boromir

Let's look at one of Tolkien's best descriptions he gives one of his characters-

“And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance…He was cloaked and booted as if for a journey on horseback; and indeed though his garments were rich, and his cloak was lined with fur, they were stained with long travel. He had a collar of silver in which a single white stone was set; his locks were shorn about his shoulders. On a baldric he wore a great horn tipped with silver that now was laid upon his knees.”

-6'4" in height (this fact is contained within an unpublished note by Tolkien, located at the Bodleian Library in Oxford, according to The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull)

-40 years old and of high Númenorean lineage (Faramir lived to be around 117) meaning that he would not look 40 years old as we know it. Please do not combat this with the whole "Gandalf says the Númenorean blood does not run truly in Boromir like it did in Faramir and Denethor", because this is by most standards impossible. There is little doubt that Tolkien meant by this the personality traits of Boromir lacking in Númenorean standard when put up against the high airs of his father and brother.

-Although debatable, Boromir was not described as having a beard, therefore he most likely did not have one (again, the age).

-Did not openly wear chainmail, as Gimli is said to be the only member of The Fellowship who does so.

All that being said, let's take a look at Peter Jackson's Boromir.

Movie Boromir

-Straight borderline blonde chin length hair (), the lightest shade of brown you could possibly think of, with blue eyes.

-I do not really see the proudness in Bean as Boromir is described. Instead I see nervousness and anxiety.

-No collar of silver

-Golden tipped Horn of Gondor, instead of silver. (Does PJ have something against silver?)

-Appears 40+ in regular years and has a trimmed up little goatee

-Openly wears chainmail


Almost everything you could do opposite to the character, appearance wise, was done by good old PJ.

Now let's take a look at personality.

Firstly, PJ's Boromir is thrown off from the start when he shows the deleted Osgiliath scene in the EE of The Two Towers, where the overly mad Denethor enters and demands that Boromir travel to Rivendell to retrieve him a "kingly gift." PJ's Boromir puts his tail between his legs and recoils at the idea. In the books, we all know that Boromir was answering a prophetic dream that he and his brother were having, and that Denethor did not want Boromir to go-

“Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave, and long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay.” (The Fellowship of the Ring)

Even though PJ contradicts himself by adding in the extended edition of The Fellowship a clip of the Council of Elrond where Boromir says he traveled hither because of a dream (I believe this was included) from the start of PJ's films Boromir was wrongly portrayed.

As already stated, Book Boromir was much like Aragorn. Proud, stern, and an air about him that echoed the memory of Númenor. I do not get that from PJ's adaption. Instead, we see a man with childish grudges who gets upset when he doesn't always get his way, and from the start paranoid at the intentions of Aragorn, Frodo, and Gandalf. He appears most of the time anxious and confused. Book Boromir hardly saw those traits. He was a man of grim but friendly nature. One would imagine him walking through the streets of Minas Tirith sternly, unapproachable yet lovable when his closest friends came around the bend. Rejoicing in his great victories, yet never tainting them with unnecessary antics. This is again opposite to PJ's extended edition Osgiliath scene where Boromir appears the let loose party guy because he won a battle.

In the books, Boromir only started his lust for the Ring after Lothlórien, after the Lady of the Wood had tested him. In the films, Boromir wants the Ring from his entrance on. Boromir's journey in the books is simply to go home and help the Ring-bearer on his way, but he gets caught up in his fault of power and pride, and ultimately tries to take the Ring as we all know. Even after Lothlórien, in the books Boromir just wanted to start heading home- "To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship." (FotR), showing that his true state of mind was still present, whereas in the films it has been long gone.

Let's not forget Boromir's aid from book to film. None of Boromir's shining moments in The Fellowship are present in the films. It was Boromir who decided to bring wood up while journeying through Caradhras, and it was Boromir who thought of plowing through the shoulder length snow so that The Fellowship could survive. Boromir's strength and wisdom of battle aided The Fellowship against the Wargs and in Moria (in Moria this is shown, besides in the EE Fellowship when Boromir is taken down by the Troll just to be saved by Aragorn.) His role is vital in helping Aragorn move the boats.

We see hardly any of this in the films. Instead, we see a man who takes Merry and Pippin into his arms and yells like a little girl when jumping from one broken stairway to the next. He even appears cowardly a lot of the time. It seems that in the films Boromir cared wholly for taking the Ring with little else on his mind.

On his death in book to movie

As already stated in this thread, in the books Boromir was shot with numerous arrows before falling. In the movies he was shot with only three and fell. It appears more realistic, but this still dampers the strength and fierce bravery of Boromir. Boromir's last scene alive, as he says his last words to Aragorn, is even problematic. There are things I would have changed, such as Bean's line of "I would have followed you..." and I would have also included Boromir's dying wish that Aragorn save Minas Tirith (it was depicted similiar in the films, yet not the same.) However, the most important part of Boromir's death is not featured in the films. It is the very last thing he does in the books, which confirms all rightful mind and intention coming back and the madness of pride and the Ring leaving him- Boromir smiles. PJ does not include this extremely pivotal emotion in the films, which is utterly disappointing.

Boromir's character was not developed even half fully in the films. Instead people who have no knowledge of his character deem him angry, irritated, and sometimes even evil. These are common misconceptions of Boromir that I am always ready to fight against.

And to alatar...as you might already know, I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that movie Boromir is "better" than book Boromir. There is only one Boromir, and that is the one that Tolkien created. All of the characters in the films were merely adaptions of an untouchable story.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

And to alatar...as you might already know, I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that movie Boromir is "better" than book Boromir. There is only one Boromir, and that is the one that Tolkien created. All of the characters in the films were merely adaptions of an untouchable story.

I agree, the only true Lord of the Rings is the masterpiece that Tolkien created. But I think that as far as movies go, that I can say that it was a pretty good adaption as far as adaptions go... Well I was mad when PJ left Bombadil and Goldberry out.

[Finduilas]

Ouch. MathewM, I have to say that I find your post painful.

First I have to say that your closing arguement was in my experience incorrect.

Instead people who have no knowledge of his character deem him angry, irritated, and sometimes even evil.

A friend of mine never understood why my sister cried at Boromir's death, but when she watched the FotR for the first time she cried(which considering how she is, is slightly unusual.) Because of his treatment of Merry and Pippin, I also liked him a great deal.

Now I do agree that you are entirely right in most of your points, but I just wanted to say that. (And also, you called his hair dark blonde. I don't think it is that light but I might not be remembering it correctly.)


I would say Sam is probably the best adapted character. Lobelia isn't bad...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

And to alatar...as you might already know, I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that movie Boromir is "better" than book Boromir. There is only one Boromir, and that is the one that Tolkien created. All of the characters in the films were merely adaptions of an untouchable story.

Excellent post, MatthewM! You definitely state how you feel and back up your statements with evidence from the books and movies (alatar wipes a tear from his cheek and mutters, "evidence" like the name of some old long lost love...)

That being said, in my completely subjective opinion, I liked PJ's Boromir better as I could see the man in my head, whereas I never saw Book Boromir as nothing more than an antagonist/outsider and foil for Aragorn/Gandalf. In the movie I could see the character struggle with the Ring, and I was truly sad when he died. The book death wasn't emotive.

Do I like everything about the movie character? Read the SbS and see how I whine and complain more than Frodo in PJ's dreams.

What's truly funny is that I was continually told that I never saw anything good in the movies, and yet when I do...

P.S And I loved Bean's hair, though it wasn't as nice and Prince Charming's in Shrek II.

[Boromir88]

I can't agree with Sam...besides the point Eomer said, there was no need for Sean Astin to gain weight for the role. As there is no indicator that Sam was any fatter than the typical hobbit...in fact I think Merry and Pippin should have been plumper as Frodo was the 'abnormal' lean one.

Well if I may say so, Mathew has done an excellent job summing up the portrayal of Boromir in the movies...now I will attempt a defense as to why I disagree and say Boromir was portrayed very well. (With a few exceptions).

Appearance, costume, hair...etc really isn't the actors fault, so when I think of portrayal I don't consider too much about all that. I think did the actor bring out his/her character in the book? When I see Sean Bean on screen can I think of Boromir of Lord of the Rings? And I would say I can!

First off, I will say that Extended Osgiliath scene was completely wrong and it would have been better to do things differently. As mentioned, Denethor sending Boromir off as some sort of secret agent is not only contrary to the books, but as Mathew points out conflicts with what we see earlier in the film itself. So, that part of the extended scene definitely creates problems and is a bad portrayal.

However, let's look at a few more things with that extended scene in Osgiliath.

'Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men.'~Appendix A: The Stewards

The extended scene definitely shows the love between the two brothers quite well I would say. It shows their brotherly bond and Boromir standing up for/defending Faramir.

Boromir was also a beloved Captain, and we also see this in the extended scene. So, as far as that part goes, I would say the movies (and Sean Bean) portray Boromir quite well.

I do not get that from PJ's adaption. Instead, we see a man with childish grudges who gets upset when he doesn't always get his way.

Well, as much as I hate to admit it book Boromir could also be quite childish...eventhough this was changed in the movies, lets not forget it was Boromir who through the stones disturbing 'The Watcher.' Also, he is a man that struggled taking orders and did indeed show a little bit of contempt when things didn't go his way.

'If my advice is heeded, it will be the western shore, and the way to Minas Tirith,' answered Boromir. 'But I am not the leader of the Company.' The others said nothing, and Aragorn looked doubtful and troubled.'~Farewell to Lorien

Perhaps, I'm reading it wrong, but I detect a note of a little jealousy. Kind of like 'I want to do this...and if only you would listen to me, but hey I'm not the leader.' Looks all to similar to Denethor's spiel about his power.

We can kind of understand Boromir here though...I mean he is used to being the one giving orders back in Gondor. He's the one with the command of the military, he's the one having things done his way. But when he joins with the Fellowship he is amongst 'greater men' now...there is this wizard dude and his future king. So, we see Boromir struggle with taking orders and definitely struggle with the fact that he doesn't have things go his way. And I think this is what Jackson was trying to show in the movies. Show this very struggle of Boromir actually having to take orders and have the Fellowship go against what he wants. And at times Boromir was very childish about it...afterall didn't he say he would not go to Lothlorien unless if all the Company was against him?

Instead, we see a man with childish grudges who gets upset when he doesn't always get his way, and from the start paranoid at the intentions of Aragorn, Frodo, and Gandalf.

At first Boromir does seem pretty unsure/unwilling of Aragorn being his King:

'I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meaning of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. 'Yet we are hard pressed, and the Sword of Elendil would be a help beyond hope - if such a thing could indeed return out of the shadows of the past.' He looked again at Aragorn, and doubt was in his eyes.~The Council of Elrond

Boromir does say the Sword of Elendil would be a welcome to Gondor, that is if Aragorn isn't simply caring some old relic and he knows what he's doing. So, there is a little bit of tension here between Aragorn and Boromir (at their first meeting). Boromir is doubtful, Aragorn hasn't proven himself to Boromir yet, and afterall lets not forget this was also a son who asked his dad why wasn't he the king? Now, as Frodo does point out to Faramir, I would say that Boromir (through his journey with Aragorn) does come to start accepting Aragorn's claim, but let's not forget Faramir's words either:

'I doubt it not,' said Faramir. 'If he were satisfied of Aragorn's claim, as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch had not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in her war.'~The Window on the West

There is no doubt in Faramir that had Aragorn proven himself to Boromir, Boromir would be the type of man to respect and revere him...but lets not get too far ahead of ourselves, what would have happened had they both reached Minas Tirith and Aragorn came to take away thrown from pops? So, definitely I would say that there is at least reluctance and paranoia (in Boromir) of Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor...at first that is. However, by Boromir's death it seems like Aragorn had proven himself:

'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.'~The Departure of Boromir

The movie does a little change and has the touching 'My brother, my captain, my King,' but the same feeling is there. At first there was a little tension between the two men, but by Boromir's death he has come to see Aragorn as one of his own. I'd say this is in the books and Bean plus Jackson do a nice job showing the growth in the relationship between Boromir and Aragorn.

He was a man of grim but friendly nature.

I would disagree with the 'grim' part, at least that's not how Eomer pictured him:

'Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke of his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Godnor he seemed to me,'~The Riders of Rohan

This is again opposite to PJ's extended edition Osgiliath scene where Boromir appears the let loose party guy because he won a battle.

Perhaps Boromir wasn't a 'partay animal' but as you said he definitely did rejoice in his victories...and as Faramir points out not only did he seek a restoration of the 'Glory of Gondor' but he wanted his own glory with it.

In the books, Boromir only started his lust for the Ring after Lothlórien, after the Lady of the Wood had tested him.

I disagree, right from the get go Boromir wants the Ring...just in the books he seemed to do a better job suppressing his desire for the Ring (until after meeting with Galadriel)...but that desire began right from the start:

'Saruman is a traitor, but did he not have a glimpse of wisdom? Why do you speak ever of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in the very hour of need? Wielding it the Free Lords of the Free may surely defeat the Enemy. That is what he most fears, I deem.'~The Council of Elrond

So, Boromir's desire for the Ring starts right there in Rivendell...and his championing for Gondor begins:

'The Men of Gondor are vialiant, and they will never submit; but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory!'~ibid

There's the key word...'weapon.' Right from the get go Boromir sees the Ring as a weapon and wants to use it (just as the movie portrays).

Now, what Jackson does do is show the Ring 'effecting' him a little sooner than the books. Boromir (in the books) was able to suppress his desires for the Ring until after Lothlorien (thats when he starts acting nervous, giving 'hard' stares at Frodo...etc), Jackson just decides to show the Ring growing on Boromir's mind a bit sooner. But this doesn't mean it's an inaccurate portrayal, the bottomline is the desire for using the Ring as a weapon was in Boromir right when he first sees it, in the movies and in the books.

None of Boromir's shining moments in The Fellowship are present in the films.

I disagree, many of those moments listed Jackson chose not to show...most likely because he didn't have time to show it all. But when we do see Boromir I don't think we can say he was as you put here:

We see hardly any of this in the films. Instead, we see a man who takes Merry and Pippin into his arms and yells like a little girl when jumping from one broken stairway to the next. He even appears cowardly a lot of the time. It seems that in the films Boromir cared wholly for taking the Ring with little else on his mind.

Lets not forget in the movies (as well as the books) it was Boromir with the suggestion to get off Caradhras because the Hobbits would freeze to death. Yep Jackson added that part in.

Also, I would say his warrioresqueness showed in Moria when he was the one who went charging into the fray first, while the others stood back and shot or just waited. In the books Boromir is the one up front holding the door...they don't show it this way in the movies, but Jackson does do something similar with Boromir being the one charging into the Orcs.

And Boromir true gleaming moment in the spotlight which shows his absolute bravery is his defense of Merry and Pippin. Which the movie portrays absolutely stunningly...

As already stated in this thread, in the books Boromir was shot with numerous arrows before falling. In the movies he was shot with only three and fell.

We can sit here and discuss all we want about how different the Boromir's last stand was in the books and the movies, but being different doesnt mean it is an inaccurate portrayal of Boromir...just a different one. The scene was done differently than from the books, but the portrayal (of Boromir) remains accurate. The portrayal of the scene itself was wrong, but lets seperate the scene from the character.

When we watch the scene in the movie do we get the feeling of Boromir's first off amazing warrior qualities, and secondly this man who's trying to make up for an evil he just committed and for something he knows he did wrong? For me, it's a resounding yes...it is different from the books, but it still does the job, and does it quite well.

It's only 'three' arrows...bah big deal, he was still fighting and defending the hobbits after being shot twice in the chest, that's pretty darn heroic if you ask me. Then the look on Beans face (accompanied with the music) when Merry and Pippin are captured was just stunning...it was the only moment in all the films which watered my eyes. The feeling of sadness in the death of such a great warrior, yet gladness in his redemption and acknowledgement that what he tried to do was 'wrong,' still remains in the film eventhough if it is different from the books. That to me still makes it an accurate and darn good portrayal.

Boromir's character was not developed even half fully in the films.

I disagree here too...Now grant it there is an issue with time where I don't think you can really show everything. But I absolutely love what Bean and Jackson do with Boromir's character (excluding that scene with pops in the EE). I just want to touch on this...

'and Pippin gazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whom Pippin had liked from teh first, admiring the great man's lordly but kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor

I really love what Jackson is, because he takes this (which is why Pippin 'admired' Boromir), and shows it to us on screen...what I mean is in the scene where Boromir is sword-fighting with Merry and Pippin. In the books we are told Pippin liked Boromir for his 'kindly manner,' and we are shown this in the movies by Boromir's interaction with Merry and Pippin...a nice touch if I may say so.

So, in a nutshell, I would say Boromir was played and portrayed very well...if not the best. Sure Jackson changed around some scenes and showed things a little differently, but at the heart of it, what still remains is when watching Sean Bean on screen I got the feeling that he was Boromir, he was his part in the books...and that Sean Bean understood his character. Which is really no surprise, as Bean has loved (and read LOTR) since he was a teen. He has always been a man who admires literature as a whole. Also from various interviews when he's talking about Boromir there is no doubt in my mind he understood his character. He certainly doesn't look like the Boromir I visioned in the books, and I can sit here and nit pick out the various scenes that were done differently, but what remains is still an accurate portrayal of Boromir in the films. We see his kind manner, we see his love for his brother and his people, we see his generalship, his warrior attitude, his vibrant youth, as well as his not so great traits...his childish-like behavior, his skepticism of Aragorn, and his desire for the Ring. We also see a developement in his relationship with Aragorn, when it first starts out a little rocky but grows and strengthens...all of which I think are present in the books and which are shown in the movies.

[MatthewM]

MatthewM = two T's.

Originally Posted by Findulias

Ouch. MathewM, I have to say that I find your post painful.

First I have to say that your closing arguement was in my experience incorrect.

And also, you called his hair dark blonde. I don't think it is that light but I might not be remembering it correctly.)

Painful? Incorrect? Well you haven't had many discussions on the character then, have you?

I did not call his hair dark blonde. I called it the lightest shade of brown.


You have some sound points, "Boromir88", for your argument, but I feel as if you are only glimpsing at the silver lining, and not looking at his portrayal as a whole in the films. I would also like to say that I do not dislike the films at all- I love them, as a matter of fact- but Boromir was not best portrayed, not by a long shot. I never said Bean didn't do a great job with the character, I agree that he understood Boromir well...I'm not blaming the faults on Bean, he did a great job, but he was too old looking for the character. Not the best for Tolkien's Boromir, and surely not the best adapted from book to film, personality wise, appearance wise, and accomplishments wise. We'll put all the fault on PJ. How's that? Where to start...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Appearance, costume, hair...etc really isn't the actors fault, so when I think of portrayal I don't consider too much about all that. I think did the actor bring out his/her character in the book? When I see Sean Bean on screen can I think of Boromir of Lord of the Rings? And I would say I can!

Of course you can think of him as Boromir- he played him. How can you not consider apperance when you think of portrayal? The way a character looks, especially when it was described so well in the books, should be carefully adhered to, not neglected like PJ so often did.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

However, let's look at a few more things with that extended scene in Osgiliath.

The extended scene definitely shows the love between the two brothers quite well I would say. It shows their brotherly bond and Boromir standing up for/defending Faramir.

And that scene is the only way PJ could have pulled that off? There were tons of different ways to have shown the love and bond between Boromir and Faramir. The scene does show their bond, but that does not make up for the rest of the atrocities of this scene.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well, as much as I hate to admit it book Boromir could also be quite childish...eventhough this was changed in the movies, lets not forget it was Boromir who through the stones disturbing 'The Watcher.' Also, he is a man that struggled taking orders and did indeed show a little bit of contempt when things didn't go his way.

Well, let's look at it from Boromir's view. Here he is, at the entrance to Moria, a place he did not even want to go, with some brilliant wizard who supposedly knows endless lore, magic, and wisdom of Middle-earth...and he can't even open the door? I would have thrown a stone to pass some time as well! What is so childish about it? Surely when a grown man throws a stone in the water he is not deemed "childish" in a negative way. How was Boromir supposed to know a hideous monster dwelled within the water?

And as you said, Boromir was not used to taking orders...he did his best.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

afterall didn't he say he would not go to Lothlorien unless if all the Company was against him?

At least he was a team player.

I still would not call it childish, anyway. If you do not want to go somewhere, you would say it, would you not? I would.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

At first Boromir does seem pretty unsure/unwilling of Aragorn being his King:

Boromir does say the Sword of Elendil would be a welcome to Gondor, that is if Aragorn isn't simply caring some old relic and he knows what he's doing. So, there is a little bit of tension here between Aragorn and Boromir (at their first meeting). Boromir is doubtful, Aragorn hasn't proven himself to Boromir yet, and afterall lets not forget this was also a son who asked his dad why wasn't he the king?

I find it odd that you chose to randomly address Boromir's relationship to Aragorn as I did not really mention it in my post. Is this a point on why you liked the movie Boromir? If so, why do you go on to explain yourself like you are defending the position? I never made any comment about the portrayal of the relationship of Boromir and Aragorn (which, I thought, was done rather well at some points, excluding some scenes like the EE scene when Aragorn tells Boromir that "he would not lead the Ring within a blah blah blah of your City") besides that movie Boromir was paranoid of Aragorn's intentions from the start. Which he was- and although in the books a similiar feeling was conjured (doubt in Boromir's eyes) like you said, book Boromir eventually accepts Aragorn's claim and conceals his desire for the Ring until his lust is awoken in Lorien. This is different than PJ's council. If you want to talk about a fumble in the relationship of movie Aragorn and Boromir, and a childish movie Boromir nontheless, how about the line-

"Gondor has no king...Gondor needs no king." (As he sits down with a pout)

We do not get what Tolkien's Boromir admitted, that the Sword of Elendil would be a hope and help to Minas Tirith.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would disagree with the 'grim' part, at least that's not how Eomer pictured him:
'Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke of his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Godnor he seemed to me,'~The Riders of Rohan

Look at Eomer's last words in that sentence..."he seemed to me". That is Eomer's opinion alone. Boromir was, regardless of Eomer's opinion, a "grave man of Gondor", and doubtless Boromir would have defended that. A synonym for "grave" is "grim".

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Perhaps Boromir wasn't a 'partay animal' but as you said he definitely did rejoice in his victories...and as Faramir points out not only did he seek a restoration of the 'Glory of Gondor' but he wanted his own glory with it.

I do not recall saying he did not want any glory.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I disagree, right from the get go Boromir wants the Ring...just in the books he seemed to do a better job suppressing his desire for the Ring (until after meeting with Galadriel)...but that desire began right from the start:

So, Boromir's desire for the Ring starts right there in Rivendell...and his championing for Gondor begins:

There's the key word...'weapon.' Right from the get go Boromir sees the Ring as a weapon and wants to use it (just as the movie portrays).

Now, what Jackson does do is show the Ring 'effecting' him a little sooner than the books. Boromir (in the books) was able to suppress his desires for the Ring until after Lothlorien (thats when he starts acting nervous, giving 'hard' stares at Frodo...etc), Jackson just decides to show the Ring growing on Boromir's mind a bit sooner. But this doesn't mean it's an inaccurate portrayal, the bottomline is the desire for using the Ring as a weapon was in Boromir right when he first sees it, in the movies and in the books.

Yet this quick lust that PJ shows grows ever quickly in the movies, which denotes the hard will of Tolkien's Boromir. It is true that Boromir wanted to use the Ring from the start, there is no denying that- but the fact that Boromir suppressed this lust until Galadriel tested him is saying a lot more of his character than all along having the Ring on his mind, which PJ's softer willed Boromir did. Even after Lorien (book) Boromir just wanted to go home, showing his right state of mind return, just before the temptation and lust for Ring consumes him as he attempts to take the "weapon" from Frodo.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I disagree, many of those moments listed Jackson chose not to show...most likely because he didn't have time to show it all. But when we do see Boromir I don't think we can say he was as you put here

Lets not forget in the movies (as well as the books) it was Boromir with the suggestion to get off Caradhras because the Hobbits would freeze to death. Yep Jackson added that part in.

What is your argument here? How can you disagree when you yourself say that Jackson chose not to show Boromir's shining moments? He could have added them, if nothing else he could have contained them in the extended cut. Boromir's idea of burrowing through the shoulder-length snow of Caradhras saved the Company from freezing to death. You are going to defend that a just replacement for this great deed was that PJ's Boromir yells "this will be the death of the Hobbits!"? C'mon now.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Also, I would say his warrioresqueness showed in Moria when he was the one who went charging into the fray first, while the others stood back and shot or just waited. In the books Boromir is the one up front holding the door...they don't show it this way in the movies, but Jackson does do something similar with Boromir being the one charging into the Orcs.

I do not see this as any sort of replacement for book Boromir's yell of "Gondor!" as he ran towards the Balrog with Aragorn, willing to fight alongside Gandalf to his death.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And Boromir true gleaming moment in the spotlight which shows his absolute bravery is his defense of Merry and Pippin. Which the movie portrays absolutely stunningly...

Agreed, but his lore of survival and his physical strength that he contributed to the journey is on such a higher scale in the books. His deeds on Caradhras (suggesting wood for fire, burrowing through the snow) and in Moria are pivotal for his character, and as they were not shown in the films, people do not know of all the deeds Boromir the Brave accomplished in The Fellowship.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

When we watch the scene in the movie do we get the feeling of Boromir's first off amazing warrior qualities, and secondly this man who's trying to make up for an evil he just committed and for something he knows he did wrong? For me, it's a resounding yes...it is different from the books, but it still does the job, and does it quite well.

Agreed, yet PJ still does not include Boromir's smile. The smile, to me, is the most important part of Boromir's death. It is the sign and confirmation that Boromir understands, has repented, and is leaving Middle-earth without his worry and overbearing pride.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's only 'three' arrows...bah big deal

Wholeheartedly disagree. Before he fell Boromir received numerous arrow wounds all over the place. Three arrows is reducing that plenty. You can say three arrows is more realistic, but that is not Tolkien's Boromir- he did not fall until numerous arrows pierced him.

Side note- they got away with countless arrows in the warriors of the movie "300".

Originally Posted by Boromir88

he was still fighting and defending the hobbits after being shot twice in the chest, that's pretty darn heroic if you ask me.

Still heroic, yes. I teared at the scene as well...it is one of the best that PJ did in the trilogy, and the most touching. You are right that the point was made in the same way as the books. But was it accurate to the great warrior's strength? Not really.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I disagree here too...Now grant it there is an issue with time where I don't think you can really show everything. But I absolutely love what Bean and Jackson do with Boromir's character (excluding that scene with pops in the EE). I just want to touch on this...
'and Pippin gazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whom Pippin had liked from teh first, admiring the great man's lordly but kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor

This description from Pippin is great, and it breathes life to my image of Tolkien's Boromir. It also serves as opposite for what you are arguing for, in my opinion, because the word you did not highlight or comment on, lordly, did not come across in PJ's movies...in fact, what Jackson "did" was almost strip the character of this quality. Where was movie Boromir's lordly qualities? Did he leave them with the trail of pee that was left when he recoiled from an insane Denethor's wish to retreive a "kingly gift"?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, in a nutshell, I would say Boromir was played and portrayed very well...if not the best. Sure Jackson changed around some scenes and showed things a little differently, but at the heart of it, what still remains is when watching Sean Bean on screen I got the feeling that he was Boromir, he was his part in the books

I disagree. Jackson changing scenes around and showing things a lot differently isn't kosher with me.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

We see his kind manner, we see his love for his brother and his people, we see his generalship, his warrior attitude, his vibrant youth, as well as his not so great traits...his childish-like behavior, his skepticism of Aragorn, and his desire for the Ring. We also see a developement in his relationship with Aragorn, when it first starts out a little rocky but grows and strengthens...all of which I think are present in the books and which are shown in the movies.

Yet how they were portrayed is a totaly different story.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Hey Guys, this is the Best adaptions, not the worst.
Although I do like that you both have good reasons to back up what you're saying.

Thanks ~TheGreatElvenWarrior

[Folwren]

Shelob. And I'm not joking. She was perfect. A huge spider, ugly, bulbous, and scary. Her lair was filed with old webs and half eaten carcasses, skelatons, and other nasty stuff. She was cunning and evil - consider, she squeezed out silently above Frodo, snuck around above him and essentially stabbed him in the back...only she waited for him to turn around so she could get his chest. Then when Sam came, she attacked him viciously. She knocked the phial out of his hand and out of his reach once. And then when she finally got stabbed, it was because she was trying to smash Sam and (just like in the book) it was her weight and strength that forced the blade up into her stomach. And then she twitched and jerked horribly in pain and she retreated, shuddering and shivering, into a hole.

The head Uruk Hai after Ugluk is killed by Aragorn was pretty well adapted.

Regardless of Matthew's adamant disagreement, I really like Boromir in the movie. I like him a lot in the books, too. They were one character I don't think they ruined.

Eowyn was also very well adapted, save for the stew scene. *sigh* Oh well.

-- Folwren

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Regardless of Matthew's adamant disagreement, I really like Boromir in the movie. I like him a lot in the books, too. They were one character I don't think they ruined.

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however I am providing you with fact from Tolkien's own writing of the character in the books - the true authority - and the fact is that Boromir was wrongly portrayed from book to film in many aspects.

[Formendacil]

It's really interesting, Matt, watching you guys duke it out over the adaptation of Boromir's character. Reading your side of the argument, I'm finding myself inclined to agree with you, but reading between the lines I'd say you have a much higher estimation of Book-Boromir's character than I did.

It's interesting therefore, for me to note that while you see Movie-Boromir and you see a less-noble character than Book-Boromir, whereas I, who had a much lower estimation of Book-Boromir, found myself raising my estimation of him as a result of Movie-Boromir.

The lovely thing about reading books is the amount of imagination involved. I shaded my Boromir darker than your lordly Boromir, and so one ends up with completely different evaluations of the movie version.

So, while your argument--with the assistance of Movie-Boromir's groundwork--certainly leaves me with a higher, and justifiably so, estimation of the character of Boromir, I have to state that I always found him to be one of my favourite (in a true-to-the-book sense) adaptations to the film.

[Boromir88]

The lovely thing about reading books is the amount of imagination involved.~Formendacil

Excellent point and thats the creativeness of JRR Tolkien. We have one description, one paragraph, but are able to imagine/interpret it several different ways. As I think you can see from this thread all three of us have similar, yet different views of Boromir's character. And I don't think one of us is more 'right' than any other, as we all have good reasons for imagining Boromir the way we do. That's what a good book does, opens up the imagination, and supports several different perspectives.

And I know what happens with me, is when I get an idea into my head everything I find often seems to go to support my particular view...I'm a very biased person . That's where discussions like this really help me out and gets me seeing things a bit differently (even though I disagree and I still think I'm right. )

but Boromir was not best portrayed, not by a long shot.

I think I can agree with ya there...he wasn't the best portrayed simply because of that Osgiliath scene in the EE I think would be enough to show that he wasn't the best portrayed. I was just making an argument as to what I thought the movies got right about him.

How can you not consider apperance when you think of portrayal?

I do consider appearance, I just said I don't think too much into the 'appearance' part. As I did criticize Sam, Merry, and Pippin's appearance in the film, it would be a bit hypocritical for me then to say appearance doesn't matter in Boromir's portrayal.

I just don't consider it to be big deal when compared to traits and personality...as for me, thats what I think about the most when it comes to portrayal. Did Bean and Jackson get Boromir's mannerisms and personality correct? As its those things which 'bring the character to life on screen', for me, where somebody else may be different and place their emphasis on...say Boromir's appearance.

The scene does show their bond, but that does not make up for the rest of the atrocities of this scene.

I can think of them seperately as they try to show two different things about Boromir...one (the love between the two brothers) which is a good and accurate portrayal. The other his bowing to Daddy's wishes and going to Rivendell as an undercover agent (something completely wrong and I absolutely wish that scene never made it in). Since, I do think they are portraying two seperate things I don't think one makes the other 'worse,' nor does one make the other 'better.'

How was Boromir supposed to know a hideous monster dwelled within the water?

Interesting take on things, I think I saw it as childish because I imagined it as something Pippin would do...not the 'Captain-General' of Gondor. It seemed that Boromir acted more out of anger than anything else...it wasn't like he was skipping rocks to try to keep himself entertained:

'How I hate this foul pool!' He stooped and picked up a large stone he cast it far into the dark water.
[...]
'Why did you do that, Boromir? said Frodo. 'I hate this place, too, and I am afraid...I am afraid of the pool. Don't disturb it.'~A Journey in the Dark

I see it as rather childish because he's angry (maybe about having to go through Moria?) and so he just throws in a giant rock.

I still would not call it childish, anyway. If you do not want to go somewhere, you would say it, would you not? I would.

I would too, and Boromir being the leader that he was back in Gondor it's more understandable that he would be the one objecting, since he was used to the leadership role and getting things done his way. However, I think its the way he reacts (like he does at the Gates of Moria)...it seems a lot like frustration; and rather like a tantrem. Instead of just objecting and saying 'I don't think this is a good idea' I think it's just the way I read the remark...It reminds me of something I would do as a kid, when I didn't want to go some where...'If dad's not going I don't have to either!.'

And there are other times when he has some sarcastic remarks...who was it that said sarcasm was the lowest form of wit?

'But the Enemy holds the eastern bank,' objected Boromir. 'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'~The Great River

I think this is both sarcastic and ironic. Sarcastic because Boromir doesn't agree with the path Aragorn wants to take and he's making some little jabs at it. Ironic because it is Boromir who arguably goes 'leaping down the falls' into 'the marshes.'

Is this a point on why you liked the movie Boromir? If so, why do you go on to explain yourself like you are defending the position? I never made any comment about the portrayal of the relationship of Boromir and Aragorn

Aye, sorry about that little confusion. I was saying that I liked that part of the movie with Boromir and I went on to explain growth in their relationship. Sorry, if I misunderstood but I thought you were saying Boromir acting 'paranoid' about Aragorn's claim was a wrong portrayal. Where I thought Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor, at least at first, was something that slightly unnerved/skeptical of Aragorn.

I do agree though that the movies do not show the 'lordly' quality of Boromir when it comes to this part. As the lordly Boromir of the books, eventhough he seemed to not like Aragorn's claim (at the Council), Frodo does say that he always treated Aragorn with respect. And Faramir points out that Boromir was that type of person...this I do agree is missing in the movies.

Look at Eomer's last words in that sentence..."he seemed to me". That is Eomer's opinion alone.

Yes, it was Eomer's opinion, but I think we can take it to be true. As Eomer says he had seen Boromir before, and in seeing Boromir he seemed more like the 'swift sons of Eorl' than those 'grave men in Gondor.' And eventhough Boromir was from Gondor, Eomer seperates him from the 'grave men of Gondor.' Also, I think his passion for Gondor (and for Gondor's victory) shows that he was not like the typical 'grave' men of his country.

but the fact that Boromir suppressed this lust until Galadriel tested him is saying a lot more of his character than all along having the Ring on his mind, which PJ's softer willed Boromir did

I concede, that's a good point.

What is your argument here? How can you disagree when you yourself say that Jackson chose not to show Boromir's shining moments?

My argument was eventhough Jackson did not have the warg scene, directing the boats through Sarn Gebir...etc Boromir's strength and what he does for the Fellowship I think still shows up in the movie. As I mentioned he is the one carrying Merry and Pippin up Caradhras, and he is the one to suggest to turn back. I haven't seen the extended fight of Moria in a long time, so I'll have to get back to you...I do just remember Aragorn coming in to save his arse. But anyway, I was saying eventhough Jackson doesn't add any of those scenes, I still think Boromir's greatest asset to the Fellowship...his strength/fighting prowess, shows up in other places during the movie.

Agreed, yet PJ still does not include Boromir's smile.

And I agree with you about the smile...I'll have to watch the scene again (as I haven't seen the movie in a little while). But I do vaguely remember Boromir expressing a certain hapiness/peacefulness before he dies. I'll take your word that he doesn't smile, but Aragorn does lay Boromir's sword in his hand and Boromir brings it to his chest...then I think Aragorn kisses him on the forehead, which I think all shows the final end of Boromir quite well. It speaks back to Aragorn and Gandalf's words about Boromir 'conquering in the end,' the 'final note' Aragorn and Boromir end on...there may have been tension along the road but they both realized they were brothers in the same conflict. The 'smile' shows Boromir's end is a peaceful one, and I think this is still shown in the movies...the smile probably would have been easier and better though.

Side note- they got away with countless arrows in the warriors of the movie "300".

That was so the famous line 'Then we'll fight in the shade' makes sense.

So, now that I look at it, I think the main disagreement comes with just how we think of 'portrayal.' Particularly around Boromir's death scene. Eventhough if Jackson alters the scene and changes it, I think the message is still there. I get the same feeling watching it on screen as I did reading the books, Jackson just shows the 'final stand' differently. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument then that the way Jackson portrays the scene...although delivers the same feelings, it doesn't show Boromir's strength and bravery to the extent the books do with Boromir's death? Therefor, the portrayal, allthough isn't wrong, it's not as good as it could have been?

[MatthewM]

Formendacil, if I have given a higher air to the way you see Boromir, I am satisfied. And you're right- everyone sees Tolkien's world in their own way. Like Boromir88 said, that is part of what makes these books so amazing.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I just don't consider it to be big deal when compared to traits and personality...as for me, thats what I think about the most when it comes to portrayal. Did Bean and Jackson get Boromir's mannerisms and personality correct? As its those things which 'bring the character to life on screen', for me, where somebody else may be different and place their emphasis on...say Boromir's appearance.

I put a much higher emphasis on appearance, I always have. Personality and mannerisms are just as important to me...because for me if an actor is playing the part (from book to movie) well, yet fails to coincide with the book in appearance (and vice versa) I can't see the portrayal as authentic as some might.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I see it as rather childish because he's angry (maybe about having to go through Moria?) and so he just throws in a giant rock.

Hm, I actually forgot that Boromir says that before he throws the stone into the water. I suppose it was a bit childish then, yet I can understand his anger as he did not want to enter Moria, and the whole Company was backing some wizard who couldn't open a door, and who his father wasn't too sure of.

Speaking of childish, and personality and mannerisms, I seem to have forgotten one of the worst scenes PJ ever filmed concerning Boromir and his personality, and this scene is right up there in filth with the EE Osgiliath scene...I can't believe I forgot to mention it sooner. Now here is an example of why movie Boromir is childish, far more childish than anyone could say about book Boromir- Aragorn is sitting peacefully in a part of Rivendell, where there is a huge moral depicting the defeat of Sauron during the Second Age, when Isildur cut the Ring off Sauron's hand. Not far away stands a statue that holds the Shards of Narsil. Boromir enters, says nothing to Aragorn, actually picks up the broken hilt, traces his finger across it while talking to himself- "The blade that cut the Ring..." (while almost reinacting what happened), then cutting his finger on it by accident ("still sharp...") he finally notices that Aragorn has been staring him down. Boromir looks with fear at Aragorn, and concludes with "but no more than a broken hilt". With that, Boromir hastily puts the hilt back on its resting place, and it falls down and clangs an obnoxious noise. Boromir turns his head, looks at it- not giving a hoot less, and walks away.

Talk about childish...I rest my case in saying that this movie Boromir, in this scene especially, can not even compare to book Boromir. There is no lordliness, as we know, in Bean, and there is absolutely no kindliness in this scene. Instead there is complete disrespect to Boromir's own country (which we know would never have happened in the books) and complete disrespect to Boromir's character alone. In fact, this scene is so demoralizing to Boromir's character as is the Osgiliath scene that I do not even consider either of them to be portrayal's of Boromir- I can't even give them the credit of being PJ's Boromir in his more finer scenes.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would too, and Boromir being the leader that he was back in Gondor it's more understandable that he would be the one objecting, since he was used to the leadership role and getting things done his way. However, I think its the way he reacts (like he does at the Gates of Moria)...it seems a lot like frustration; and rather like a tantrem. Instead of just objecting and saying 'I don't think this is a good idea' I think it's just the way I read the remark...It reminds me of something I would do as a kid, when I didn't want to go some where...'If dad's not going I don't have to either!.'

I don't see any sort of tantrem in Boromir's words (concering the direction of the Nine Walkers after Moria), perhaps a bit of frustration because no one has really been listening to his opinion concerning where The Fellowship should go. I still can't see this disagreeing as childish, as he was so accustomed to giving orders and already weary from what he heard in Gondor (about Lorien)- but I'm sure everyone reads the remarks differently.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

'But the Enemy holds the eastern bank,' objected Boromir. 'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'~The Great River

I think this is both sarcastic and ironic. Sarcastic because Boromir doesn't agree with the path Aragorn wants to take and he's making some little jabs at it. Ironic because it is Boromir who arguably goes 'leaping down the falls' into 'the marshes.'

Nice catch, I love Boromir's sarcasm here. I've never picked up on that irony- again, nice catch.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aye, sorry about that little confusion. I was saying that I liked that part of the movie with Boromir and I went on to explain growth in their relationship. Sorry, if I misunderstood but I thought you were saying Boromir acting 'paranoid' about Aragorn's claim was a wrong portrayal.

A misunderstanding it was! No worries!

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, it was Eomer's opinion, but I think we can take it to be true. As Eomer says he had seen Boromir before, and in seeing Boromir he seemed more like the 'swift sons of Eorl' than those 'grave men in Gondor.' And eventhough Boromir was from Gondor, Eomer seperates him from the 'grave men of Gondor.' Also, I think his passion for Gondor (and for Gondor's victory) shows that he was not like the typical 'grave' men of his country.

I still think it's just Eomer's opinion, just because, like Boromir (to Gondor), Eomer was tremendously devoted to Rohan and I can see how he would push his patriotism of "the swift sons of Eorl" to one of the few Gondorians Eomer (most likely) knew- Gondor's greatest. I also see Eomer's words as a bit of a generalization- he's lumping all men of Gondor as grave, and all of Rohan swift. Obviously, there are grave men and swift men in both countries. I do agree of course with Eomer's praise of Boromir and his kind words about him, I just don't take his "more like to the swift sons of Eorl" speel seriously.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And I agree with you about the smile...I'll have to watch the scene again (as I haven't seen the movie in a little while). But I do vaguely remember Boromir expressing a certain hapiness/peacefulness before he dies. I'll take your word that he doesn't smile, but Aragorn does lay Boromir's sword in his hand and Boromir brings it to his chest...then I think Aragorn kisses him on the forehead, which I think all shows the final end of Boromir quite well.

The 'smile' shows Boromir's end is a peaceful one, and I think this is still shown in the movies...the smile probably would have been easier and better though

I'm pretty sure when movie Boromir says his last lines "I would have followed you..." he smiles a little bit, but it wasn't the same as I picture it in the book, one because the very last thing Boromir does in the book was smile, not say the line "my king". Yes quite knitpicky, I know, but very vital in my opinion. The smile is the resolution from Boromir's mistake and overwhelming pride he displayed while trying to wrestle the Ring from Frodo, and the smile is, in my opinion, what ties into one of the most beautiful lines in all of the book-

"But in Gondor in after-days it long was said that the elven-boat rode the falls and the foaming pool, and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Anduin, out into the Great Sea at night under the stars." - The Departure of Boromir

For me this confirms 100% that through his last defense of the hobbits, Boromir was forgiven, not only by himself, but by the higher powers of Middle-earth.

Like you said, in the movie they could have done it much better.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, now that I look at it, I think the main disagreement comes with just how we think of 'portrayal.' Particularly around Boromir's death scene. Eventhough if Jackson alters the scene and changes it, I think the message is still there. I get the same feeling watching it on screen as I did reading the books, Jackson just shows the 'final stand' differently. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument then that the way Jackson portrays the scene...although delivers the same feelings, it doesn't show Boromir's strength and bravery to the extent the books do with Boromir's death? Therefor, the portrayal, allthough isn't wrong, it's not as good as it could have been?

Exactly.

So, although we disagree on certain aspects, I think we agree on a lot as well. It has been good having this discussion!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Let's see- the book characters Jackson did best with?

Bombadil
Goldberry
The Barrow-wight
Glorfindel
Ted Sandyman
Bill Ferny
Quickbeam
Radagast
Beregond

[Boromir88]

Matthew , the feeling is mutual.

Just one quick comment...I forgot about that scene in Rivendell where Boromir throws down Elendil - I thought he said 'no more than a broken heirloom' but sometimes I have trouble understanding Bean's accent...and I agree that was so childish it was way out of Boromir's character. Thanks for bringing that up as I completely forgot about that part.

As we see from the story, Boromir revered the sword of Elendil, and if he ever were to pick it up (which another thing is I have no idea who Elrond has it out for display for everyone to come and take a peek at ), he would never have tossed it on the ground and shown such childish disrespect for an extremely important heirloom in Gondor's history!

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Let's see- the book characters Jackson did best with?

Bombadil
Goldberry
The Barrow-wight
Glorfindel
Ted Sandyman
Bill Ferny
Quickbeam
Radagast
Beregond

Ahh just the characters he left out...
I guess that makes it so PJ couldn't ruin them.

I thought Gandalf was portrayed well as was Sam, by their respected actors. Although there may have been differences in the way Fran wrote Boromir's character as opposed to the Professor, I think/thought that Sean Bean would have pulled off either with equal perfection.

[Thinlómien]

Welcome to the 'downs, Master Morgoth! If you want to introduce yourself, it can be done here.

I partly agree with you - and others - about Gandalf. I think McKellen was great, but... I think he lacked something. He was, in a way, too soft and I don't think the movie-Gandalf showed the more dangerous and powerful Gandalf very well. Gandalf the White in action was pretty lame and even Gandalf the Grey lacked the certain spark of fire, something in Gandalf that made the ring Narya match his spirit. There was a little bit too much of a kind old man in the movie Gandalf.
(Oh, you should all see a Finnish TV-series, that was made of LotR in the early nineties, called Hobitit (Hobbits). The Gandalf in the series is great, even though he looks quite un-gandalfish. Oh, jolly, I found a pic of the actors. See.

From left to right: Boromir, Gandalf, Gimli, Merry, Sam, Frodo and Aragorn. Oh gosh, they look so funny. )

edit: the pic is actually from the play they made and on which the TV series was based on, but it looks the same...

Thinlómien,

I share your views stated above. I am no lover of Peter Jackson's interpretations and detest his lack of faith in Tolkien's own work, but as movies alone I quite enjoyed them all, some more than others. My point is the actors played to the written movie scripts about as good as anyone else could have. Now if PJ and company would have written the characters in the script as the Professor had in the book, then I would have no compassion for the actors digression of character.

And thank you for your welcome.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Let's see- the book characters Jackson did best with?

Bombadil
Goldberry
The Barrow-wight
Glorfindel
Ted Sandyman
Bill Ferny
Quickbeam
Radagast
Beregond

You forgot Bergil though...Since he is Beregond's son...

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Welcome to the 'downs, Master Morgoth! If you want to introduce yourself, it can be done here.

I partly agree with you - and others - about Gandalf. I think McKellen was great, but... I think he lacked something. He was, in a way, too soft and I don't think the movie-Gandalf showed the more dangerous and powerful Gandalf very well. Gandalf the White in action was pretty lame and even Gandalf the Grey lacked the certain spark of fire, something in Gandalf that made the ring Narya match his spirit. There was a little bit too much of a kind old man in the movie Gandalf.
(Oh, you should all see a Finnish TV-series, that was made of LotR in the early nineties, called Hobitit (Hobbits). The Gandalf in the series is great, even though he looks quite un-gandalfish. Oh, jolly, I found a pic of the actors. See.

From left to right: Boromir, Gandalf, Gimli, Merry, Sam, Frodo and Aragorn. Oh gosh, they look so funny. )

edit: the pic is actually from the play they made and on which the TV series was based on, but it looks the same...

Umm... Wheres Pippin?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

You forgot Bergil though...Since he is Beregond's son...

Yup. As well as

Fatty Bolger
Lotho Pimple
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Imrahil
Ioreth

Seriously, though, I think the characters who survived the transition to film with the least damage were
1) Eowyn
2) Gandalf the Grey (not White)
3) Sam

Two honorable mentions:

Boromir, who isn't exactly Book-Boromir but he's not bad; and
Wormtongue, whom Dourif nails, but the visual concept for the character might as well have tattooed EVIL MINION on his forehead.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Yup. As well as

Fatty Bolger
Lotho Pimple
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Imrahil
Ioreth

Seriously, though, I think the characters who survived the transition to film with the least damage were
1) Eowyn
2) Gandalf the Grey (not White)
3) Sam

Two honorable mentions:

Boromir, who isn't exactly Book-Boromir but he's not bad; and
Wormtongue, whom Dourif nails, but the visual concept for the character might as well have tattooed EVIL MINION on his forehead.

Hehe As I said before, You can't ruin characters if you don't have them...
This thread is really going... more than I expected.

[Essex]

MatthewM

To add to what Formendacil and Boromir88 say above -

It always amazes me how different people can have different viewpoints of characters that are almost 100% opposite to each other - I see it again and again in looking at different threads on this site. It's probably what makes this place so interesting.

I'd just like to take you up on one area of your post to explain my point above - you said re Boromir:

I do not get that from PJ's adaption. Instead, we see a man with childish grudges who gets upset when he doesn't always get his way

I see EXACTLY this when I think of book Boromir. It took me a few reads to get to this point - I remember a few years back I was re reading LOTR for the umpteenth time and we were discussing the character of Boromir on this site so I concentrated on him as I read from the Council to the Breaking of the Fellowship. I found Boromir a petulant, childish figure quite a number of times in the way he acted.

I'll try to fish out the Thread the discussion was on - and post a link here. - you might enjoy it.

Here's one of them:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ish#post381783

and http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ish#post319074

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Essex

I'd just like to take you up on one area of your post to explain my point above -

Sigh. I thought people might let this go by now, but apparently there will always be one who throws more fuel on the fire. Anyway, you can take me up on any point you like. The points you make in your linked threads hold no substance, in my opinion, for you say-

Originally Posted by Essex

I've gone the opposite way to you Boromir, regarding your namesake. I also looked more closely at Boromir's character after seeing the scenes in the FOTR movie.
I now see him as an even more petulant, aggresive, arrogant and childish figure. You may think this is extreme, but to me I really get this view of Boromir when I read the books now.

You say that it was only after you saw PJ's overly childish Boromir that you started clinging those traits onto book Boromir. Your argument falls dead. I do not see the overly dramatized "petulant, aggressive, arrogant, and childish" character that you do. Not by a long shot. I have given ample citations in the text that cite Boromir's situation as to why he probably acted the way he did...and only once would I say he was a bit childish in the story. Aren't we all? Anyway, I do not need to cite all of my explanations again, think what you want.

[Sauron the White]

MatthewM... your opinion is your opinion and your right to have it. But I do think you are grossly misrepresenting what Essex said. Here is how you paraphrased his point

You say that it was only after you saw PJ's overly childish Boromir that you started clinging those traits onto book Boromir. Your argument falls dead.

Essex never said that Jackson showed Boromir to be childish. Just the opposite. Essex was very clearly stating that he liked the portrayal of Boromir in the Jackson films and sees him as carrying childish grudges in the books. He is not the first or only person to express such an opinion about the character of Boromir.

He never used the phrase that you attribute to him saying that Jackson showed Boromir to be childish.

I am not taking issue with your overall opinion on Boromir right now - just trying to set the record straight.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

You see, people have their own opinions. Opinions are opinions, you don't have to agree with everyone. You don't have to disagree with them either.

As my dad said "Opinions are like buttholes, everyones got them, and sometimes there stinky"