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Old 09-25-2007, 06:53 PM   #1
CSteefel
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Exactly what power did the Ring of Fire give to Gandalf?

While re-reading LOTR yet again, I realize that I am hazy on what exactly the Ring of Fire did for Gandalf. Certainly, he uses fire effectively in several places, for example, the showdown with the wolves after the Fellowship's failed attempt on crossing the Misty Mountains. And there are the fireworks as well, but...

This also got me thinking that the comparisons in power between Gandalf and others have tended to rely on Gandalf's position within the hierarchy of Middle Earth (a Maia), but the Ring of Fire doesn't seem to be factored in here. Given that the Rings held by Elrond and Galadriel seem to secure entire regions (Rivendell and Lothlorien, respectively), one would think that the Ring of Fire is a substantial augmentation of Gandalf's power...
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Old 09-25-2007, 07:17 PM   #2
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Exactly what power did the Ring of Fire give to Gandalf?

I hear he could cook up the best salsa this side of the Anduin.
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Old 09-25-2007, 08:21 PM   #3
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Narya

Well, i always thought that it may have given him resistance to fire aswell. After-all, he was holding on to he balrog's leg in the caverns beneath Khazad-Dum(as far as my memory can be used when speaking of his fight with the creature). Perhaps it was his ring that allowed him to do so, for I would guess that, even doused, the balrog's skin would still be like hot coals.
But i don't have much to back that up however. That's the only example of such that I can remember.
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Old 09-25-2007, 09:01 PM   #4
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I don't think Narya being called 'The Ring of Fire' has anything to do with the power that it gives to Gandalf. It was also called 'The Red Ring' as the stone set in it was a ruby.

The Elven Rings weren't made to be weapons, or to increase their bearers powers. There powers were in preservation and protection. Galadriel sustains and protects Lorien by the power of her Ring, same as Elrond. But the Rings themselves are not actual weapons.

As far as Narya's powers, I think Cirdan offers a good explanation:
Quote:
'Take this ring, Master,' he said 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.'~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age
I think we see the power of Narya at work in a couple instances. One being in the battle with Durin's Bane. But not by giving Gandalf any sort of increased power, but by giving him strength when he was weary. As Cirdan says 'it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself'...Gandalf remarks that his confrontation with the Balrog at the gate in Balin's Tomb (although at the time Gandalf didn't know it was a Balrog), had drained him and he was already 'weary.'

Also in the Siege of Minas Tirith for some reason people were inspired to continue to fight when Gandalf was around:
Quote:
So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defence of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory.~The Siege of Gondor
While Galadriel and Elrond used their rings to protect (as well as 'stop the decay of time' - preserve) their realms...Narya you could say 'preserved' the heart in men.
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Old 09-26-2007, 05:18 AM   #5
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I am afraid I am going to disagre with Boro a little here.

I do think there is significance in the names of the ring and their powers. Partly they of course echo the fate of the Silmarils - one in air as Earendil's star, one cast into a fiery chasm (fire/earth) and one in the water of the sea.

It says somewhere that the stars are seen clearest over Rivendell and Galadriel's realm is protected in part by rivers and her power is manifested through the medium of water in that her "mirror" is a basin of water and in the Phial is "caught the light of Earendil's star, set amid the waters of my fountain". Of course this is not clear cut - Elrond also uses the river to protect his lands but I think there is significance in the elements the rings are associated with. Gandalf is associated with fire, fire works but " with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill" is surely significant. In Valinor, Olorin inspired or "kindled" hearts to achieve more. This particular ring perhaps accentuated the innate power which was limited by his physical incarnation.

Jean Chausse gave a lecture at Oxonmoot last year which dealt greatly with Gandalf and fire (though from a Catholic perspective) but I don't have time now to write it up. More later I hope.
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:43 AM   #6
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Narya

I am afraid I'm going to agree with both Boro and Mith here

First, I think the Ring increased the power of the wearer to manipulate with fire, as Mith said, it is with no doubt that the other Rings gave their bearers certain powers to manipulate with their realms.

But second and I think mainly, is what you have agreed on - in the "fire" terms - rekindling the spirits of others, and of the bearer. Gandalf's aid to the West was in supporting the resistance against Sauron, he did not use his power as Saruman did - or wanted to: he walked among people, here and there, and where the power of the Westerners was weakened, he rekindled the spirits (I just recall the same happened at Pelennor fields, literally). Remember Théoden (though it was after his re-birth), I can't think of a better "rekindling effect". It does not matter to what scale the powers came from Gandalf himself and to what scale from the Ring - actually, the Ring was more like "boosting" the owner's abilities, and here the Ring probably gave Gandalf the strength to do good (hence the temptation he speaks about when mentioning the One Ring - he knew that the One could maybe give him even more strength than Narya, but he was aware of the fact that it would lead him to falling to the Ring).

In the books, there are many moments when, I believe, we can see the work of Narya (for example I think the battle with the Nazgul at Weathertop, on Caradhras, against the wolves near Moria, meeting with Aragorn&co. in Fangorn, battle with the Nazgul attacking Faramir, stopping the Witch-king, response to Wormtongue etc), but it's never shown explicitely - as with all the Elven Rings, and with Narya the most, it remains hidden. In all the books, I believe, there is only one moment when we are told that the Ring is used, and that's the battle with the Balrog: "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." (though even here it's not explicite, but quite easily understandable from the words)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Halsar
Well, i always thought that it may have given him resistance to fire aswell.
I believe not. And please, I hope no one here is thinking in the cathegories of D&D or similar games. Narya was not a "Ring of Fire Resistance +70%" or anything like that. Concerning the fire itself, your argument about the balrog probably won't stand, since even before they fell, Gandalf was burned. And since we are not playing the 70% resistance here, the only possibility would be to protect from the fire at all, which is refutated by that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The White Rider
Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned.
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Old 09-26-2007, 07:51 AM   #7
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Narya

There are definitely links between the ring and the element, but as ever in Tolkien, they are subtly and poetically drawn. So both Boro and Mithalwen are right to my mind - there is the poetic and inspirational interpretation of 'fire' as courage and morale-boosting, and also the real physical element of fire.

The poetic may include Gandalf's ability to inspire and to lead, but also the spiritual element within the world he lived in. I don't think it's any mistake that he held the ring of Fire and that he was the only character we know of who went right back to Eru (we think) and was sent back whole again; was the fire within the Secret Fire?

The physical can be seen by anyone in his ability to make fireworks of course!

The choice is up to the reader. I'm having both

The next interesting question is as Mithalwen says, whether or not the Ring accentuated latent powers or created them within him? And following on from that, was the Ring created with some kind of foresight of his arrival in Middle-earth? What did Celebrimbor and Cirdan know about?
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:40 PM   #8
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Narya

I guess it just was supposed to somehow enhance his already existing powers, and help him achieve his aim.

Quote:
"Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within. " ~ Unfinished Tales, The Istari
Guess Legate pretty much summed up all I was going to add.
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Old 09-26-2007, 07:24 PM   #9
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I believe that it enhanced his physical capabilities (the instances already mentioned by many, such as the fire used to fight the Nazgul or wolves, but also the "bright flash" and smell of gunpowder when the Goblins were attacking in The Hobbit), but its greater power was in kindling the hearts of men. Hence, inspiring the hope that he did during the siege of Gondor. But I believe its greatest potency was displayed in events such as the healing ("kindling") of Theoden to go to war, or even inspiring an otherwise uncourageous hobbit to run out his door and join a band of dwarves to Erebor.

Let us not also forget that it gave Gandalf insight into the minds of Galadriel and Elrond, the other bearers of the rings.

I thought that Appendix B stated more about the rings, so I shall go and read it tonight.
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:45 AM   #10
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Still strangely it seems only few felt the power within Gandalf, enhanced by Narya, at least before his return as Gandalf the White:

Quote:
"...but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within. "
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might View Post
Still strangely it seems only few felt the power within Gandalf, enhanced by Narya, at least before his return as Gandalf the White:
I think that reflects the fact that to most, he looked like a simple old man clad in grey. If we use one sentence right from the very beginning of the Hobbit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hobbit
All that the unsuspecting Bilbo saw that morning was an old man with a staff.
I think this is what most people saw. But on the other hand, the fact that they could not recognise the power in Gandalf, does not mean that they could experience its effects. As it is said about Gandalf even before he got the Ring, in Valinor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valaquenta
for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.
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