THIS exists in M-E?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

Not possible. Absolutely inconceivable for there to be a train in Middle-Earth. I don't mean to sound unkind, but the answer comes as much from personal desire for there NOT to be a train in Middle-Earth as much as conviction that Tolkien was speaking from metaphor and not from actual comparison. (One might expect that cannons would not be terribly distant developments.)

KoG is correct. The express train reference is metaphorical, yet another Hobbitish anachronism. The Shire is chock full of anachronistic items, and the book The Hobbit is the main purveyor of such oddities (like Bilbo's mantle clock, for instance). Tolkien spent much time editing out such anachronisms in LotR (potatoes and tobacco, most notably, changed to 'taters' and 'pipeweed'); however, some references, such as an express train remain. Hobbitish society itself is anachronistic to Middle-earth, and that is part of its charm: westkits, umbrellas, afternoon tea (and lunch *winks*), clocks, etc.

However, as far as powered means of locomotion, Eärendil's ship Vingilot was a pretty nifty spaceship.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hobbitish society itself is anachronistic to Middle-earth, and that is part of its charm: westkits, umbrellas, afternoon tea (and lunch *winks*), clocks, etc.

That's because it's English

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That's because it's English

No, the Shire is charming in spite of it being English, which is a feat of literary mastery on the part of Tolkien. *snickers*

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No, the Shire is charming in spite of it being English, which is a feat of literary mastery on the part of Tolkien. *snickers*

So you say England is not charming?

Off With His Head! Why, it is Jerusalem itself!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

So you say England is not charming?

Off With His Head! Why, it is Jerusalem itself!

Jerusalem? Well, I suppose you can build Jerusalem on England's green and pleasant land; however, you have yet to remove the Satanic mills. Sorry about the William Blake reference, but how often can one interject Blake into everyday conversation?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Jerusalem? Well, I suppose you can build Jerusalem on England's green and pleasant land; however, you have yet to remove the Satanic mills. Sorry about the William Blake reference, but how often can one interject Blake into everyday conversation?

Jerusalem is already here, and the Satanic Mills were taken care of by one Mrs T, but as to how often you can get Blake into everyday conversation? You can't do it enough!

[sallkid]

don't mean to flog a dead horse, but on the subject of gandalf's fireworks.

It's concievable (though would be almost completely anathemic) that gandalf supplemented his fireworks with his own power or the power of his ring (which i believe was known as the "ring of fire") Although someone as wise as gandalf probably wouldn't have used a ring of power so frivlously, it is possible that, after the fall of the necromancer he felt safe using this power, untill the rumours of the dark lord rose again.

On the subject of trains, it could refer to a wagon train. Carrying people or supplies through the shire. this fails to take into account the hiss of steam but a wagon train travelling an "express" route would surely travel at the greatest speed possible?

Please forgive my sincere lack of knowledge in this respect.

[Son of Númenor]

Bilbo himself is furthermore fairly easy to place both socially and even chronologically. If one did not have the rest of the book [The Hobbit] to go on, one would have to place him, on internal evidence, from a time after the discovery of America, for he smokes a pipe, and indeed the last words of the whole book are 'tobacco-jar' ('tobacco' is not recorded in English by the OED till 1588). But one could be more precise than that, for when Bilbo wishes to discourage Gandalf he takes out 'his morning letters', which are clearly routinely delivered early every day. Bilbo must live, then, after the introduction of a postal service - our familiar system dates, in England, from 1837. In a more indirect way Bilbo might also be thought to date from a time after railway-engines, for though it is the narrator's term not his own, when his nerve finally breaks he shrieks 'like the whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel' (the first freight-and-passenger steam railway in England opened in 1825, the first railway tunnel dating from five years later). (Shippey, J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century, Chapter I: The Hobbit: Re-Inventing Middle-earth)

This tidbit just fell into my lap as I began reading Shippey's book (which I highly recommend thus far!). The chapter goes on to discuss the ways in which Bilbo begins his journey through the ancient fairy tale world of The Hobbit as an anachronistic traveler, a solid connection to Victorian and Edwardian values. Gradually the playing field is leveled, so to speak, to the point where he becomes 'worthy', in Shippey's words, of interaction with the mythic.

The LotR passage in question in this thread is one of the final snips at the tether that binds the hobbits safely to contemporary English-ness; after the first few chapters they are thrust squarely into the ancient mythological landscape with only a few glimpses backward.

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by sallkid

don't mean to flog a dead horse, but on the subject of gandalf's fireworks.

It's concievable (though would be almost completely anathemic) that gandalf supplemented his fireworks with his own power or the power of his ring (which i believe was known as the "ring of fire") Although someone as wise as gandalf probably wouldn't have used a ring of power so frivlously, it is possible that, after the fall of the necromancer he felt safe using this power, untill the rumours of the dark lord rose again.

I believe that in The Hobbit, it is mentioned that Lakedown had seen fireworks, not necessarily of Gandalf's making. I would agree that the fireworks might have been the result of Gandalf's power (he had shown similar powers by lighting the branch to stave off the wolves on Caradhras, or the flash that killed the goblins in The Hobbit) except that Saruman, who did not have any known specialty in flame, was able to weaponize some form of gunpowder/explosive to unmake the wall of Helm's Deep.

On the subject of trains, it could refer to a wagon train. Carrying people or supplies through the shire. this fails to take into account the hiss of steam but a wagon train travelling an "express" route would surely travel at the greatest speed possible?

Please forgive my sincere lack of knowledge in this respect.

Already mentioned above, and I believe the consensus tends to be that a wagon train would neither rumble nor whistle.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

If Gandalf used his powers to make the fireworks splendid, it would only be an improvement and not as such change the fact that it had already been invented.

I am quite sure that the fireworks was made in Dale, which means gunpowder was common knowledge in Middle-Earth and therefor it does not really matter whether Gandalf used his powers or not.

I mean the subject is how far technology had developed, right?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's concievable (though would be almost completely anathemic) that gandalf supplemented his fireworks with his own power or the power of his ring (which i believe was known as the "ring of fire") Although someone as wise as gandalf probably wouldn't have used a ring of power so frivlously, it is possible that, after the fall of the necromancer he felt safe using this power, untill the rumours of the dark lord rose again.

I'm not sure it's a question of Gandalf "using" or "wielding" the power of Narya, so much as the fact that his long possession enhanced his understanding of fire, which enabled him to manipulate it. I really doubt he was casually using his Ring in Bag-end during the Unexpected Party, with his trained smoke-rings!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

This tidbit just fell into my lap as I began reading Shippey's book (which I highly recommend thus far!). The chapter goes on to discuss the ways in which Bilbo begins his journey through the ancient fairy tale world of The Hobbit as an anachronistic traveler, a solid connection to Victorian and Edwardian values. Gradually the playing field is leveled, so to speak, to the point where he becomes 'worthy', in Shippey's words, of interaction with the mythic.

The LotR passage in question in this thread is one of the final snips at the tether that binds the hobbits safely to contemporary English-ness; after the first few chapters they are thrust squarely into the ancient mythological landscape with only a few glimpses backward.

Good, isn't it? Both book and idea? I more or less agree with what Shippey says here, and it adds grist to the mill that the whole 'express train' image was on the part of the narrator. I have to say it doesn't really intrude for me as The Shire sounds such a familiar, not very far-away, place.

Now on the gunpowder...an idea springs to mind...the substance clearly exists and Gandalf clearly has an almost supernatural grasp of using it in fireworks (as shown by Boro's explanation of how modern fireworks are made and how they couldn't hope to compete with the splendid stuff put on display by Gandalf) while Saruman uses it for more nefarious and bloody purposes. Maybe Tolkien is showing us something here? Telling us a lesson about the application of science in the form of technology? Gandalf uses it to make things of beauty whereas Saruman uses it in the application of war. Presumably Gandalf could do this too, but he didn't. So I think that maybe shows us something of Tolkien's thought on uses and abuses of technology?