Medemocracy

[Volo]

I have seen threads about the war force numbers in Middle-earth, but so far I haven't found a thread about the total populations in Middle-earth. I don't remember seeing any information about it in the books either.

What would be the total populations of each race at different times?

The Orcs have the most warriors, so would the total of Orcs be close to the total of Men, Elves and Dwarves?
If it is, aren't the Orcs good then, and the other races evil? After all democracy is the best solution we have nowadays.

[Elmo]

Wow, that's quite political for a Monday evening... I don't think a Tolkien messageboard is quite the place to mount an attack on democracy... But anyway do you think the Orcs would have a large voting turnout. I think the Orcish candidates would have to promise much manflesh to bring out the evil vote, to stop the orcs pillaging and marauding long enough to put a cross on a little piece of paper. And anyway wouldm't the orcish vote be split amongst the snaga and Uruk Hai vote...

[The Might]

ME is NOT a state, so the whole idea of it being one big democracy makes little or no sense.
Gondor, Rohan, The Shire, these could perhaps eventually become democracies, but not all of Middle-earth.

As far as demography, and not democracy, is concerned, I doubt any clear figures can be given.
Still, it is pretty certain that out the inhabitants of Middle-earth, and by this term I am talking about the whole continent, and not only its north-western part, would be supporters of Sauron. It is stated in many places that many tribes of Men had been enslaved by him in the East, so the numbers of his followers, not only the Orcs, would be quite high.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

Still, it is pretty certain that out the inhabitants of Middle-earth, and by this term I am talking about the whole continent, and not only its north-western part, would be supporters of Sauron. It is stated in many places that many tribes of Men had been enslaved by him in the East, so the numbers of his followers, not only the Orcs, would be quite high.

However, the point is in that these people were enslaved, so this was tyranny, not democracy. So there would have to be a Nazgul standing near the ballot box, checking for whom the Easterlings and Southrons vote.

...which brings me to, if I were an Easterling or a Southron, I'd probably form a Eastern/Southern Front Party, and we will vote for a leader from our own ranks.

Still, even though the numbers for the Orcs or even the Easterlings/Southrons are many, I think a) as hewhoarisesinmight said, they'd probably go one tribe against the other (where the Westmen would probably form a coalition with all the Elves&co.), b) even the Easterlings/Southrons are not homogenic, for example "Easterlings" subsumes simply all the nations from the east, which are quite many, as TM said, and even from those we know, there were the Balchoth, wain-riders, men of Dorwinion (well, more or less...) - this of course fitted Sauron when he had many little ("little" in a relative sense of the word) tribes he could govern rather than an empire which would become independant both economically and militarily; but in the system of democracy, I think this wouldn't favor him at all.

[The Might]

I don't remember ever stating they actually lived in a democracy.
All I said is that if it came to the numbers of followers, Sauron would be the winner in Middle-earth.
I still find that the idea of general elections for the whole continent is not really that interesting, since it would never happen.

Actually, they'll all vote for Tom Bombadil.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

I don't remember ever stating they actually lived in a democracy.
All I said is that if it came to the numbers of followers, Sauron would be the winner in Middle-earth.

Of course, of course But this is what I wanted to say, that Sauron wouldn't be the winner, because if the people had free choice, many of them wouldn't vote Sauron at all. Even the Orcs might probably end voting "Gorbag's Free Marauding Party" and "MFMF - Moria For More Flesh".

Originally Posted by The Might

I still find that the idea of general elections for the whole continent is not really that interesting, since it would never happen.

Of course it would not, but when the idea was cast...

Originally Posted by The Might

Actually, they'll all vote for Tom Bombadil.

Agreed

[Mithalwen]

As for population, I am fairly sure Tolkien says in the letters that there were more Gondorian speakers of Sindarin than Elvish ones at hte time of the War of the Ring (though I think he may not have included the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood in the equation). Of course not all Gondorians would have necessarily spoken Elvish but it is a reminder of how small the populations of the Elven habitations were. Rivendell is a household - albeit a fairly substantial one. Lindon had shrunk to presumably a small community at the Havens. I can't recall any indication that they could have raised much in the way of a military force. Naturally some of the residents of Imladris were high level warriors but in quantity not so significant.

The Shire despite it's feudal fringes is the nearest you get to a democracy in ME. Most other places are ruled by hereditary leaders or those who have taken power by force - The Master of lake town may have been elected but was replaced by the scion of the Lord of Dale....

With Sam's ascendancy and social mobility, the Shire becomes more meritocratic... but otherwise Tolkien has few identifiable republican leanings...

Actually, they'll all vote for Tom Bombadil.

But would he be boverred? .. Art imitates life ........

[goldfinger]

Democracy has nothing to do with the population of ME so back to subject.

From what I know Tolkien really didn't want to get into the details of the races and countries. I say this for one because in one of his letters he was asked about the economy of Gondor and other places, and he said something to the affect that it was not something he wanted to do because of its tediousness. Although he does give us hints through sizes of armies, people gathered in together, and fractions and percentages of of groups, armies and such.

But I would say other than that he left it up to the reader's imagination.

[Volo]

The title of the thread is endeed misleading and only for provocative reasons.

My real question is whether the Orcs have a right doing what the do in the terms of quantity. Isn't it fair that the majority is happy, after all?


PS: What is this new smilie: ?

[The Might]

Well, if that would happen, clearly Orcs would no longer serve Sauron, as seen in the discussion between Shagrat and Gorbag. However considering how Orcs usually act I doubt they could live together in a democracy, since each would want things done his way, and only his way, so eventually giths would break out between groups supporting different ideas. So, as said, you coudln't make all Orcs happy, perhaps only a part of them.

[Thenamir]

<Thenamir clicks to stop his stopwatch and studies the result.> Hmmm, I wondered how long it would be before Raynor or davem discovered this thread.

EDIT: See thread here for explanation of the new smiley, posts 31 and up.