Were the Istari Unable or Unwilling...

[Sardy]

...to eschew their mortal bodies? As the five wizards were bound in human, corporeal form, was this a choice of their own, or a mandate passed down from above (of which they were unable to reverse)?

Gandalf, of course, would 'stick to the rules of the game' and not "revert" to a more "godly" form, even in the most dire of circumstances... but Saruman? I wonder what Saruman's memory of his Maiar status/powers/abilities might have been?

A subset of this question would be, what (if anything) did Gandalf retain from his immortal days in Valinor? Did he actually remember a time before he was "Gandalf"? Did he have a full, waking knoweldge of his (former?) status, nature and abilities?

Edit: In the title of the thread, I changed "Maiar" to "Istari", as that is more apropos of the topic...

[Gil-Galad]

Well all Maiar gets to choose a form and the Wizards chose the form of old men i guess to pass through the kingdoms of good as wise people. Old men are constantly referred to being as wise. so to strengthen the beleif of these wizards, the old men show that they know what they are talking about.

[Mithadan]

Great post, Sardy!

Tolkien's views on this issue may have been a bit fluid over the years. From LoTR we can see that the Maiar present in Middle Earth (that we know about), Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and presumably Radagast were all susceptible to being slain, indicating that they may have been stuck with their bodies. The Silmarillion, however, talks about the Valar and Maiar being "clothed" in forms of their choice which they apparently could change or discard at will. It is mantioned that Yavanna took an Ent-like or tree form at times. Further confusing the issue is Radagast who is described as a master of shapes and hues, implying that in Middle earth he could still change his form. Both the Silmarillion and, I believe LoTR suggest that Morgoth and Sauron were able to change forms until their powers diminished after which they were locked in. So which is it?

Tolkien, in one of his letters, which I will dig out if I have time (it was the subject of a debate years ago here), states that the Istari were required to take the form of old Men. The letter implies that they were not merely clothed but became as Men, unable to discard their forms. The purpose was to limit their powers and make them weaker so they would not meet Sauron's force with force directly. But again, what of Radagast? Could he change form? He was a master of "shapes and hues".

[Raynor]

True enough, the valar can make their own bodies as they see fit, according to the Annals of Aman:

Note that 'spouse' meant only an 'association'. The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes.

Of the istari, it is said specifically in Unfinished Tales:

Originally Posted by The Istari

For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

But again, what of Radagast? Could he change form? He was a master of "shapes and hues".

I don't think he constitutes an exception in that regard; if anything, he is lesser than Saruman and Gandalf. I believe his mastery involved what he could do to his environment/others, not unto himself; after all, Saruman has his voice while Gandalf wields the flame of Anor.

Edit:

Did he actually remember a time before he was "Gandalf"?

Yes he did; as Faramir recounts the words of Gandalf:

Originally Posted by The Window on the West, TTT

Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten

Olorin was his name as a maia in Valinor. Moreover, in Unfinished Tales, The Istari:

For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly.

[Durelin]

Perhaps, depending on what they wished to accomplish, Maiar might be forced to fall into the natural laws of Ea?

Such as, if the Istari wished to have the magical abilities they had to apply to the nature of Ea (and perhaps on a cosmic sort of level, they had to stick their 'souls' so to speak into the cosmic web of Ea and the fate of Middle-earth in particular in order to help the land and its peoples), and so had to take on bodies that were in line with the physics and natural order of things.

Or, their more 'ultimate' power was something the Maiar gave up in order to show the depth of their commitment to Middle-earth, and once it was given up, it could not be gotten back without first completing their mission.

Maybe for Radagast, any 'shape-shifting' he did was still simply bound by the laws of nature, and so he could only don the visage of anything natural in Middle-earth. And even then I expect he was limited in this power (his 'old age' meant he could not exert himself too much would be the simplest of limits). I think Raynor's point that his way with 'illusion' was applied to the world around him rather than to himself is interesting, though.

Is it 'illusion,' though, that Radagast was the master of, or actually some form of 'shape-shifting?' Even if he could change his own appearance, was it simply an illusion, or did he actually take on the form of, say, an animal?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Interesting topic Sardy! And good points Raynor. But regarding Aiwendil, I would argue that he did retain mastery of shapes and hues, even as an istari.

Quote Mithadan:
But again, what of Radagast? Could he change form? He was a master of "shapes and hues".

Quote UT:
Originally Posted by The Istari
For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

QuoteRaynor:
I don't think he constitutes an exception in that regard; if anything, he is lesser than Saruman and Gandalf. I believe his mastery involved what he could do to his environment/others, not unto himself; after all, Saruman has his voice while Gandalf wields the flame of Anor.

It seems to me that the answer to this particular question depends on how you view "Man" in the context of Middle-earth. Surely Beorn was a man, and yet he was also a skin-changer, able to take on the form of a great bear. If Beorn the true Man was able to shift shapes, then why couldn't a Maia in the form of an istar also possess this ability?

Yes, I know we can rationalize Beorn's abilities and make him a beserker in a bear skin rather than a true bear, but I do not think this is what Tolkien intended. Certain characters in his Legendarium still have one foot in faerie.

The critical point here is the way we interpret the race of men. Perhaps the "Man" of Middle-earth could exhibit somewhat different characteristics than those we now regard as typical for modern man. Not only do we have the example of a shape-shifting man in The Hobbit but just look at how long the men of Numenor lived. Their lifespan far exceeded that of any "normal" human.

It is very true that the istari had to take on human form, which meant they were subject to hunger, weariness, and even death. But at the same time I don't think we can automatically assume that our own ideas about what a man is and isn't were exactly those that Tolkien held.

Note also the wording of this text in UT that pertains to the istari :

now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the lives of Elves and Men by an open display of power.

The italics are mind. Why would Tolkien have included a word like "forbidden" unless he thought that the wizards were more than mere broken down old men. Surely this implies they did have some remaining ability to take on more majestic forms and to wield great power over others? I have always thought that the restrictions placed on the wizards were not always physical in nature. While their human bodies had limits, the greater limit was surely the oath of obedience that was placed on their heads by Manwe, his instructions that they teach and show and win trust rather than overpowering the inhabitants of Arda.

When Gandalf died and was remade, how much of this was a physical remaking and how much was simply taking off the restrictions that had bound him up till that point? There may have been a little of both involved, but wasn't the removal of the restrictions really the most important of the two?

[Mänwe]

Originally posted by Child of the 7th Age

“If Beorn the true Man was able to shift shapes, then why couldn't a Maia in the form of an istar also possess this ability?”

Child, Raynor was not I think saying that they did not have the ability, rather because of the ban imposed upon them; (which you quote, and then rightly go on to say that it was more out of choice that they did not break the ban than a physical restriction put upon them; because of Tolkien’s choice of word, ‘forbidden’) the ‘shapes and hues’ was more a reflection on mastery of the manipulation of the environment, again by his choice.

To put it another way I have understood Radagast’s mastery of ‘shapes and hues’ as evidence for both. He was able to ‘shift’ had there been no ban upon him. Thus the only power we see him exert in a manner of ‘shapes and hues’ is the manipulation of the environment around him, a self imposed restriction if you will.

Note also the wording of this text in UT that pertains to the istari :

To quote your quote, perhaps the reason why Radagast was rarely seen or involved in the true task that was set him, was because he was ‘shifting’,

“For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures.” (Unfinished Tales, The Istari)

His interaction with men was little, therefore he was able to ‘shift’ out of sight of men, thus not revealing himself in different forms, and so not technically breaking the ban imposed on them by Manwë.

[Rhod the Red]

I think they had the power to choose the form themselves, but agreed not to change it once arriving in Middle-earth

[mhagain]

Radagast's "mastery" just might refer to knowledge of shapes and hues, or even some form of command over them, rather than any specific shape-changing ability.

I'm in total agreement with all of the above otherwise, but would like to raise one question.

After Gandalf's return, we start seeing visible displays of power. He breaks Sarumans staff, which I don't think even Saruman would have been able to beforehand (otherwise it would seem that he would have). He repels Ringwraiths. He takes a very active role in the command of Gondor's defence.

So.... was he made stronger, or was it just the case that the prohibition was relaxed (even a little) for him? And relaxed by whom? Almost certainly not Manwe, I don't think he would have had the authority to recall one of his own order from what was a very real "death". Did the Head Honcho Eru step in?

Thoughts & comments?

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by mhagain

So.... was he made stronger, or was it just the case that the prohibition was relaxed (even a little) for him? And relaxed by whom? Almost certainly not Manwe, I don't think he would have had the authority to recall one of his own order from what was a very real "death". Did the Head Honcho Eru step in?

Very interesting point! Though it's never mentioned or referred to in the text, I can imagine Gandalf, after his "death" under Moria, returning to Valinor and confronting the council of the Maiar... making a powerful case for taking more action in Middle-earth, a stronger stand against Sauron... convincing them to not only give him a second chance and send him back, but allowing him greater versatility and less restriction in hius actions...

[Bêthberry]

Reading over this highly interesting thread gives me a wicked idea that is tantalising to entertain.

Why were the istari limited to old men? After all, the species Men includes women. I think Esty's REB III deserves to have an old female emissary. Maybe she even suffers from the wretched injunction not to use her full powers but always to defer to male authority. Yes, yes, fifty ways to keep a good woman down.

Now that's a possibility to ponder . . .

[Raynor]

Almost certainly not Manwe, I don't think he would have had the authority to recall one of his own order from what was a very real "death". Did the Head Honcho Eru step in?

Indeed, it wasn't Manwe (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Letter #156

He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

was he made stronger, or was it just the case that the prohibition was relaxed (even a little) for him?

He was indeed made stronger (and wiser) - and the rules received an, hm, emendation?

Originally Posted by Letter #156

Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Th eoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison.

[Sardy]

I just read a great piece in Unfinished Tales that (to me, at least) seems to shed a little light on the nature of the Istari and their conscious recollection (or lack thereof) of their past lives, true natures, and mission...

Gandalf states:

""To do that I used in my waking mind only such means as were allowed to me, doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had. But what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olorin I was in the west that is forgotten, and only to those who are there shall I speak more openly."" (my bold) --Unfinished Tales, The Quest of Erebor

It would seem that the Valar, in sending the Istari forth, actually had curtailed and dimmed their memories of their true nature and essence... allowing (and necessitating) them to have a more "earthly (or Middle-earthly?) sympathy to their task at hand.

I would go so far as to think that we might readily replace, "...and only to those who are there shall I speak more openly." with "...and only to those who are there can I speak more openly."

[Rhod the Red]

Originally Posted by Sardy

Gandalf states:

It would seem that the Valar, in sending the Istari forth, actually had curtailed and dimmed their memories of their true nature and essence... allowing (and necessitating) them to have a more "earthly (or Middle-earthly?) sympathy to their task at hand.

I would go so far as to think that we might readily replace, "...and only to those who are there shall I speak more openly." with "...and only to those who are there can I speak more openly."

Agreed, mild visions of the Undying lands and the necessity of the mission in Middle-earth left in their minds.

[Raynor]

It would seem that the Valar, in sending the Istari forth, actually had curtailed and dimmed their memories of their true nature and essence.

That is what it seems like. Also in Unfinished Tales, in the Istari chapter, part Four, it is stated:

For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.

It is interesting to note the last part, that their diminished status and their suffering, as a penitence, helps redress the evils of that time.