The 7 deadly sins vs. The 7 heavenly virtues.

[Boromir88]

I'd like to discuss how Tolkien uses these 2 "virtues" in his books. The Seven Deadly Sins and the Seven Heavenly Virtues.

The Deadly Sins- Easy to remember, all you have to remember is PEGLAGS.
Pride
Envy
Gluttony
Lust
Anger
Greed
Sloth

The Heavenly Virtues- I believe the word I'm looking for is acronym (English people help me out) but, there's no acronym for the heavenly virtues, like there was for the Deadly Sins.
Faith
Hope
Charity
Fortitude
Justice
Temperance
Prudence

There have been many threads I have found on discussing what was the use of the Fellowship, since it sort of broke apart in 3 chapters, what was the reason for the Fellowship? Well, maybe here we can find WHY the Fellowship broke apart. Did they do a lot of the "deadly sins" and not the "heavenly virtues." For it is said disobeyal of the heavenly virtues will leave you to damnation, or committing of the seven deadly sins will do so too. So, maybe here we can find out how the Fellowship weighs on the "deadly sins" vs. "heavenly virtues."

Or maybe we can find out why people like Morgoth, Sauron, or Saruman were in a way "doomed" to die. Where we have people like Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, who all triumph.

Or maybe, you don't believe like I do, maybe you don't think the deadly sins and the heavenly virtues have any effect in the stories.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I will freely admit that I do not see these things as laws that everyone must follow... more as general guidelines that God likes to see us adhere to. You're not cast into eternal damnation if you succumb to pride, for instance, but you should try like heck to not over-indulge. That sort of idea. That said, when I read your post, Boromir88, the following occured to me:

The Deadly Sins reflect Boromir.

Pride

And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance. (The Council of Elrond; page 269)

He ceased, but at once Boromir stood up, tall and proud, before them. (The Council of Elrond; page 275)

"I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meaning of a riddle," answered Boromir proudly. (The Council of Elrond; page 277)

Without continuing, I am sure you see my point. Boromir was very proud.

Envy
Boromir envies Aragorn the position of leader of the Fellowship, just as he envies Frodo the job of Ringbearer.

Gluttony
I'll admit to not being able to find any examples of gluttony. Proceed directly to lust. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Lust
Here's a biggie: Boromir's lust for the Ring, and for power (which translates to greed). This insatiable desire resulted in attacking Frodo (not something you should do to a friend) and trying to steal the Ring (a religious/moral no-no).

Anger
Angry that Frodo wouldn't fork the Ring over, Boromir attacked him.

Greed
See my response to Lust.

Sloth
As with Gluttony, I did not find an immediate example. Such is life, but this was a quick thought, not a greatly researched theory.

The Heavenly Virtues seem to describe Sam quite nicely.

Faith
In my copy of Webster's New World Dictionary, the fourth part of the definition of 'faith' is this: loyalty. If that doesn't describe Sam, I don't know what does.

Hope
Even when Frodo has lost all hope,

"Maybe not, Sam," said Frodo; "but it's like things are in the world. Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall, and there is no escape." (The Field of Cormallen; page 253)

Sam is still pretty hopeful:

"Well, Master, we could at least go further from this dangerous place here, from this Crack of Doom, if that's its name." (The Field of Cormallen; page 253)

There is absolutely no reason in the world for Sam to believe that they might make it out alive, and yet he still keeps going.

Charity
Leniency in judging others. I immediately think of his dealings with Faramir:

"You took the chance, sir... Yes sir, and showed your quality: the very highest." (The Window on the West; page 665)

This is after, I might add, Faramir finding out about the Ring, scaring the bejeezus out of Frodo and Sam, and putting Frodo on the spot in front of lots of armed and dangerous rangers seated in a semi-circle (although not in that particular order).

Fortitude
Courage? Do I need to cite quotes in order to show Samwise's courage?

Justice
I'd say Sam's treatment of Gollum is pretty just, if not all that nice.

Temperance
Moderation... hm... foodwise? That doesn't much work with hobbit-nature. Let's ignore that part, although there is Sam giving up his portions to Frodo during the last legs of the adventure.

Prudence
Careful conduct. Common sense. This fits Sam to a T. He's a hobbit, and he doesn't do things for stupid reasons. He has no incentive, really, to make stupid choices, and his decisions are even more thought-out when he is taking care of others (read: Frodo's nanny).

Now, I'm not entirely sure what my point was at all. Just, I guess, that two of my favorite characters, Boromir and Sam, seem to portray the sins and virtues quite nicely. Just my thoughts,

Fea

[Elianna]

Feanor pretty much said all I could think of for the deadly sins, but let me add a bit about the virtues.

Faith
"Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we cannot see."

The quote that comes to mind is Gandalf talking with Pippin: "What does your heart tell you?" "That Frodo's alive." (paraphazing, can't find the exact quote)

Charity
If you look at the King James translation of the Bible, you'll see 'charity' where any other translation would have 'love'.

We all know how much the Fellowship was bound by love.

Just wanted to clarify about those two things.

[Nurumaiel]

Excellent post, Feanor, but I'm wondering if the first two quotes actually do show that Boromir is Proud, or if he has pride in a different way. I think the Pride that is sinful would be a vain pride. Pride is not necessarily a bad thing; it would be in the way that Pride is manifested. There would be no sin in being proud of an achievement you made, or a good you did, but if it made you look down your nose at people and think of yourself so highly that everyone else about you was foolishly unworthy of your company, 'twould be wrong. Arrogance might be a suitable word.

Now, it could be said that Boromir was being described in those sentences as Arrogant, and he was rather that, but it could also be saying something else. Proud can also mean Majestic, or of Great Dignity.

He ceased, but at once Boromir stood up, tall and proud, before them.

could also be

He ceased, but at once Boromir stood up, tall and majestic, before them.

and

And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance.

could be

And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, dignified and stern of glance.

Or I could turn around and argue against myself and say that you chose those quotes beautifully by changing Proud to Arrogant and leaving those two quotes as:

He ceased, but at once Boromir stood up, tall and arrogant, before them.

and

And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, arrogant and stern of glance.

It actually could be either way. I feel an urge to run along and think on this to see if I can get a sense of what Pride was meant. Arrogance does seem within Boromir's character, but so also does the other sort of Pride, for he was of noble birth, and the like.

Gluttony? What about the hobbits? It did seem to me, though, that the Fellowship hobbits weren't quite so bad as the other Shire-folk. There was the incident, however, where Sam disappeared right before they set out... to bid his farewell to the wine-cellars.

As far as Faith goes, what about a translation to Trust? There was a lot of Trust in the Fellowship.

[mark12_30]

Bravo for the topic, Boromir88!

A few comments:

One might argue that whenever one of the virtues is neglected, trouble of some sort ensues. For instance, Pippin's lack of prudence near the Well in Moria, or Frodo's lack of prudence in the Inn at Bree. Food for thought.

I think it significant that one of Aragorn's names is "Estel", or Hope.

[Son of Númenor]

Nurumaiel, I agree with your stance that pride is not necessarily sinful in all manifestations. Narcissistic pride and extreme condescension are generally considered 'sinful' by religious types ('annoying' or 'maddening' by non-religious types), but certainly most of us agree that there is nothing wrong with moderate pride in one's accomplishments, and a generally high self-esteem (as one does not consider one's self vastly 'superior' to others).

Now, on to the meat of the topic. (Hopefully I won't just be re-heating cold gristle.)

Gandalf is representative of each of the seven heavenly virtues. Morgoth is representative of the deadly sins (though I don't know about sloth; does hiding in an underground chapter count?). The first is the leader of the 'good fight' in The Lord of the Rings; the latter, the ultimate root of evil in Arda. The fact that each of the virtues and sins is so clearly displayed in (respectively) two characters is, to my mind, not really indicative (per se) of a specifically Catholic (or Christian) influence as it is of the 'Western morality' that is necessarily part of modern literature - especially literature that deals largely in the topic of 'good v. evil'. The sins and virtues are, more or less, the bases for Western moral ideology - arrogant people, murderers, adulterers, greedy CEOs, etc. ( ) are looked upon by society as 'bad'; charity/humanitarian workers, trustworthy and 'courageous' individuals (here in America, the firemen, servicemen, etc) are looked up to.

Ok, ok. Most of what I've said isn't really news to any of you - mostly concepts that we take for granted. My point is that the 7 Sins & 7 Virtues are generic enough to be seen in any work of literature. That Tolkien was a devout Catholic does not mean that Middle-earth was consciously imbued with Catholic ideas about sin and virtue to any greater extent than a book written by a Jew, an atheist or a Moslem. 'Good' and 'evil' are simply there in Middle-earth - magnified, yes, and polarized - but no more indicative of a specific knowledge of the Sins & Virtues than of a general modern morality.

Edit: I had to leave the computer for a bit mid-post, and didn't see Mark 12:30's post. I think you have a great point, Mark. Perhaps with the aforementioned instances of imprudence, Tolkien meant to illustrate the fallibility of 'good' people, while at the same time contrasting the untimely omission of a heavenly virtue with true sin (sin being an open act or thought displaying contempt for what is considered virtuous).

[Boromir88]

Good posts everyone!

Now I have a few more questions.

Feanor, do you think the way Boromir generally was, for example, Angry, Lustful, Greedy...etc, do you think that had anything to do with his death? Or, maybe to put it as, do you think that's part of the reason he "died?" Where, people like Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, who are genrally "trustful" and let's say "good" were able to suceed? Or do you think that Tolkien didn't intend that?

Nurumaial, good job for distinguishing the difference between "good" pride, and "bad" pride. Good pride, meaning you are proud of you accomplishments, but not to the point where you are "arrogant" or "pompous," that is bad pride. Good job, for pointing out the difference.

Elianna, thanks for the different definitions, I believe from the site I got this from has the same definitions. Just to be more helpful, here is the site where I got the info.
http://deadlysins.com/

Mark_30, you welcome, very good point. So would you say another example would be, Boromir's lack of "hope," for he thought, like his father, that it was pointless to give the ring to a hobbit and march right into Mordor. So, do you think, when he lost that hope, and tried to take the ring from Frodo, that is what ultimately caused his death?

My point is that the 7 Sins & 7 Virtues are generic enough to be seen in any work of literature. That Tolkien was a devout Catholic does not mean that Middle-earth was consciously imbued with Catholic ideas about sin and virtue to any greater extent than a book written by a Jew, an atheist or a Moslem.

I couldn't agree with you more Numenor, you could very easily tie the virtues and sins into any piece of work, literature or movie, in a "good vs. evil" movie. But, I ask, do you think Tolkien (or any other novelist) intends on doing that? Or do you think we are reading too deeply, and since the as you say the "bad people" are just generally "tied" with being greedy, anger, lust?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Nurumaiel

I'm wondering if the first two quotes actually do show that Boromir is Proud, or if he has pride in a different way. I think the Pride that is sinful would be a vain pride. Pride is not necessarily a bad thing; it would be in the way that Pride is manifested.

There is certainly nothing sinful in pride, in the sense of nobility or self-confidence. Indeed, I would class confidence as a virtue as one can achieve much more if one is confident in one's abilities. Boromir displays both nobility and confidence. He is certainly confident in his skill as a warrior, and rightfully so.

Pride only becomes a negative quality where it leads to over-confidence or, as you say, arrogance. Again, Boromir displays both qualities. He is overly confident in his own ability to wield the Ring against Sauron and in defence of Gondor. And he is arrogant in thinking that he knows better than the Wise concerning what should be done with the Ring. He also displays a certain degree of arrogance during the Fellowship's journey south from Rivendell when, at times, he seeks to determine the route that the Fellowship will take.

The quotes that you give could be taken to denote either "good pride" or "bad pride". But I rather think that they hint at both sides of Boromir's proud nature at one and the same time.

[Nurumaiel]

The Saucepan Man, a very sensible suggestion, and one I would say is probably true. Since, in those two quotes, the word 'proud' could be changed to either 'arrogant' or 'majestic/dignified' and still work well, it makes sense that it probably does mean both. Now I feel like Doctor Watson.

But now that I have Boromir in my mind, I can't get him out. It seems to me that Pride was his main failing, so far as he had it in the bad sense, and led to a lot of his other lacks in virtue. I wonder if it's possible, also, that he was overly proud of his land and people? One reason he wanted the Ring was for Gondor's defense, but also for power. Power for him, for his father, for his people, for his land.

And certainly the Deadly Sins can be applied to him without much trouble, but obviously Boromir wasn't bad through and through. Which of the Virtues can be applied to him? Virtues that kept him from ultimate downfall in the end?

It seems to me that his 'redemption' was when he died like a true man and soldier. Nothing was ever told truly of Boromir's point of view when he fought the Uruks, but I'd imagine that at that moment all the good within him welled up, all the good that would be so many virtues that they could not be named in one. Not even Fortitude seems quite right.

And another thing occured to me while re-reading Feanor's post. Pride, Envy, and Anger are three of the Sins that can be attributed to Boromir. These three are feelings resulting from the weakness or strength of human nature, and not necessarily bad. Pride and Anger can be good if manifested in the correct way. Pride has already been explained I think, but Anger can also be a Just Anger. No instance comes to mind from LotR at this moment. I could be argued that Envy could be manifested in a good way. In older Jesuit schools the boys were each given a partner, and the two boys would compete with each other, each trying to be holier than the other. Envy for another's possessions would be wrong, but an envy that someone is, for example, more of a good person than you are could be argued as not a bad thing, depending on how the person reacted to the envy. If one were to snub the better person, and speak rudely to them as a result of their jealousy, it could not be good. But if it made one strive to be more like the better person, it would not be bad. A Envious Admiration, it could almost be called.

Besides this, Anger, Pride, and Envy are feelings, classified also as temptations, which won't be wrong if bad actions do not result from them, that is, if one does not give in to the temptation. Boromir was proud -- arrogant, and he acted 'superior' and spoke in an unseemly way to those who were wiser than he. Boromir was, at one point at least, angry with Frodo, and he gave in to his anger and attacked him. Boromir seemed always envious of those such as Aragorn, and this envy could have also prompted him to act arrogant towards the wiser. So it was not so much that he felt these things, but that he acted upon them. I suppose I don't have much point in saying this; just musings on my part.

Helen, good point! Another instance occurred to me, and that is Sam's lack of Charity at one point. I remember when my father read me LotR I was so full of hope when Smeagol touched Frodo's knee and actually looked human (hobbit). He had been arranging of how to kill Frodo without actually doing it, and for a moment there seemed some hope that he would reconsider and actually avoid Shelob's lair out of affection for Frodo. Sam awoke and saw him with his hand on Frodo's knees, and out of a lack of Charity immediately assumed bad and scolded him dreadfully. Smeagol became Gollum again and any small hopes were lost.

[ninlaith]

Many conclusions may be made about LOTR concerning the 7 deadly sins and the heavenly virtues. However, I don't think the point of the book was to really focus on either the deadly sins or the heavenly virtues as one. I think the point was to focus on both equally. One major point that I noticed was that none of the Hobbits, until overly corrupted by the ring, showed any sign of commiting one of the deadly sins. However, right from the beginning Men, such as Boromir, immediately displayed many of these sins. Of the two that I noticed the most I noticed the heavenly virtues which for the most part appeared in Sam. So I do think the 7 deadly sins and the heavenly virtues did have an influence on Sir Tolkiens writings.

[Sharkû]

This thread might be of interest to this discussion.

[Boromir88]

Thanks for the thread Sharku, I'm going to have to agree with Son of Numenor, and the others on that thread that Tolkien didn't "intentionally" incorporate the sins and virtues into his books.

Don't know exactly how to explain it, but it's the general idea of anyone, that a bad person is "greedy, lustful, angry, gluttonous...etc" and good people are "hopeful, faithful...etc." It's more of a "mental" belief where we without thinking, associate bad people with the sins and good people with the virtues, not something that is done intentionally, just something that is the general belief.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Perhaps if I can ever sit in one place long enough without accidentally deleting two hours worth of work , I can put together a decent reply! Anyhow...

Feanor, do you think the way Boromir generally was, for example, Angry, Lustful, Greedy...etc, do you think that had anything to do with his death? Or, maybe to put it as, do you think that's part of the reason he "died?" Where, people like Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, who are genrally "trustful" and let's say "good" were able to suceed? Or do you think that Tolkien didn't intend that?

No, I do not. I do not think Boromir was a sinful person (except for those sins that comes with human error and bad luck) at all. In fact, I think that Boromir was a highly virtuous person... until he was exposed to the Ring. The evil of the Ring affected everyone who knew of it, whether they saw it or not, but why Boromir so strongly? Would Boromir ever have succombed to the sins that I outlined before, had he not been exposed to it?

In terms of the Virtues, Boromir was a great guy.

Of Faith: As illustrated in some passages of The Two Towers, men of Gondor are religious.

"Ware! Ware!" cried Damrod to his companion. "May the Valar turn him aside! Mumak! Mumak!" (Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit; page 646)

"...we look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be." (The Window on the West; page 661)

In that sense of faith, Boromir, as a son and heir to the House of Stewards, he, I would imagine, would hold a rather high amount of faith. He also has faith in the ability of Gondor to prevail, and in the hearts and courage of the men he leads.

Of Hope: Boromir travelled to Imladris in the first place in hopes of unravelling a mystery. He had no way of knowing if he'd ever make it or not; he did not even really know where he was going, but he continued, and prevailed, just because he had such strong hope that his travel would be worth it.

Of Charity: Boromir was a soldier. A captain of Gondor. What better way to help the needy than by devoting your life to their protection?

Of Fortitude: I should not even have to explain the depths of Boromir's courage, but for appearance's sake, I will site a reference:

"And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn." (The Window on the West; page 665)

Of Justice: Boromir was a captain of Gondor. If he was not just, he would not have that position (or so I sincerely hope).

Of Temperance: I have no canon proof of anything on this subject, so I will skip it.

Of Prudence: Being careful... not making stupid decisions... In a life of soldiery, as a higher-up, so to speak, Boromir would not have lived as long as he did without some show of prudence.

But after Boromir's first contact with the Ring, descriptions of him change slightly from the reverance of his underlings and brother, to his moods and his actions. Boromir's fall into sin came only after confronted with pure evil.

Of Pride: As Nurumaiel said, there is a difference between pride and arrogance. Before, if Boromir was proud of himself, he had every reason for it. To repeat myself,

"And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn." (The Window on the West; page 665)

And yet, as Faramir says of men of Gondor:

"We boast seldom, and then perform, or die in the attempt.

It was after Boromir became part of the Fellowship that he started insisting that his voice be heard, that he started showing off:

Of Envy: Boromir never would have envied Frodo (never would have had a reason too), had he not lusted after the Ring. Two sins for one... the Dark Side must have loved that one.

Of Gluttony: Yet again, no canonical evidence that I know of. If you can find a passage describing in great detail Boromir's over-indulgence of food, than please share.

Of Lust: Boromir lusted after the Ring. I know that any lusting on his part otherwise (unless it was for Arwen or something) would have no applicability to the story, and would therefore not be there, but I really can't see pre-Ring Boromir as being a lusty guy.

Of Anger: Sure everybody gets angry, but the reference I used for this was of Boromir attacking Frodo. No Ring, no circumstances, no anger, no attack. Easy to see, yes?

Of Greed: Greed for power, I suppose. Boromir wanted Gondor to have the power to conquer all the bad guys. That's not really a bad thing, when idea is NOT enhanced by the idea of a Ring that could give you that power.

Of Sloth: Yet again, no canonical evidence on this one. It's not particularly likely that he was the lazy type of guy.

Anyhow, do you see my point? Boromir was a good, nay great, man... until the Ring took effect on him. He was not inherently sinful, although, like any human, he had the inborn ability to maybe give in under the right circumstances.

Fea

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I had practically written an essay on this post ... but I accidentally pressed backspace while not in the text box, lost the whole thing, and am very sad about it now.

It's in my opinion, that as far as the Sins and Virtues go, there are seven of each for a reason. Balance.

They balance each other out perfectly. In the same regard, a few of them cancel other ones out.

In Boromir, we see pride, envy and lust. He only lost his temper once, which threw him off balance quite literally, going from 3 out of 7 Sins to 4 out of 7, which is over half. But since he kept a cool head almost all the time, I wouldn't call him angry.

As far as virtues go, all men of Gondor have faith in the Valar. Faith in the quest ... is another thing. He probably had faith in Frodo, but didn't have any hope of Frodo getting into Mordor, let alone to Mount Doom. He'd seen the place, he knew the odds ...

But Boromir was charitable, steadfast (fortitude), righteous (justice) and always kept his cool (except just once). He was also pretty keen on prudence. Since Gandalf didn't counsel prudence, and the whole idea of trying to sneak into Mordor and destroy the ring went against all common sense, we can't even say the quest was prudent.

He had 3 out of 7 of the Deadly Sins, but he had 6 out of 7 of the Heavenly Virtues. When he lost his cool with Frodo, and bumped up to 4 Sins, he lost a little bit of fortitude, and temperance, knocking virtue down to 4. Still, he never really got into the realm of sin any of our key villains attained and held.

I think it's important to mention that Sloth didn't really exist before electricity and all of our other modern comforts. The laziest person in Middle Earth was probably Bombur, who was so fat, that he was carried around. Dwarves seemed most prone to Sloth. But everybody had to do all sorts of basic things, just to stay alive. Sloth just wasn't prudent.

The most sloth came in the form of Lords staying in their towers, ruling from a safe place, and actually ... that was prudent. Even so, Sauron, Saruman, Denethor, Elrond, Celeborn ... they didn't sit around on thrones all the time. There were things to be done.

[Boromir88]

I had practically written an essay on this post ... but I accidentally pressed backspace while not in the text box, lost the whole thing, and am very sad about it now.

I tend to do that from time to time as well. Only instead of pressing backspace, sometimes my mind will just work totally wierd and i'll click the "x" to sign off aol, lol.

I like your argument, so would you say it was the deadly sins that led Boromir to his death, but his heavenly virtues redeemed himself? Making it a "honorable" death? Or, would you say they have nothing to do with Boromir's death at all?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Still, he never really got into the realm of sin any of our key villains attained and held.

Not saying he did, Keeper. There are very few "bad guys" who are really and truly bad guys.

Wormtongue: not very nice, but not exactly all-together evil. He just worked for Saruman.
Denathor: driven mad.
Bill Ferny: miserable lackey from a back-country town. He probably had no idea of the consequences of his actions.
The Haradrim: Evil and cruel, yes, yes. But look at what Faramir has to say of them; young sons sent away to fight for some unknown cause. I wish I could find the quote, but after some time of searching, it still alludes me.

You'll notice that I included only humans in that list. It is my idea that only humans can be subjected to human ideas and standards. Judging a wizard or a hobbit or an Elf by what we deem is right for humans is like condemning a Komodo dragon for mercilessly eating its own young. However, to keep in the spirit of the discussion:

Saruman: As an Istar, and the leader of the White Council, he was quite obviously a good person. He exemplified the Virtues:

Faith: Maia, anyone? How could an Istar not have faith?

Hope: To be devoid of hope is to defeat the purpose of the Wizards. What would be the point of journying to Middle Earth to help the free peoples unless there was some semblence of hope that it could be done?

Charity: Although you could classify helping the free people as a job that they had no choice in, the wizards still came with that exact purpose. They're entire existence in Middle Earth was based on divine charity.

Fortitude: In order to directly oppose the forces of evil, Saruman obviously must have a lot of courage. Or at least faith that it would work out all right. Either way, virtues!

Justice: The use of authority to uphold what is right. The White Council, anyone? Banding together in order to oust Sauron from his place in Dol Goldur?

Temperance: Yet again, I see no immediate examples, but like Keeper said of Sloth, it wasn't really a problem at this point in time.

Prudence: Managing carefully. Even after he joined the "Dark Side", so to speak, he still showed prudence. Just look at the secrecy and organization of Isengard!

And yet, just like my prior example of Boromir, Saruman was only really swayed into sin by temptation for the Ring.

Fea

[Elianna]

I was just thinking of yet another example involving Boromir:

Perhaps not just his sins, but also his lack of virtue caused his downfall. He had a lack of faith in Frodo and the Wise that destroying the Ring was to way to go. This also shows a lack of hope.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

That's what I was sort of getting at.

It wasn't Boromir's Pride, or Envy or other sins that led to his spell, if anything his sins and virtues were balanced out fairly well, as they should be in all men, but a lack of virtue was what let him lose it, and so it was totally not his sins that did him in, but his lack of virtue.

Even if it was only momentary, it was enough to screw all sorts of things up.

He got shifted off balance for like ... a moment, and it took a long time for those tensions to even build up, and then when he finally lost his cool a little bit, whammo! The Fellowship is broke and he ends up dead.

But like I said, he was very balanced before, and even though he got 'unbalanced' for his sudden spell with Frodo, after he fell flat on his face and lay there for a while and cooled off, he was balanced again.

Honestly ... after that, and seeing firsthand what the Ring could do ... I think he would probably have actually been safer around Frodo and the Ring than he had before, when he had doubts and misconceptions about it's power.

[Mithalwen]

I found this by acccident and am going to bump it up before I lose it again!

It strikes me that it applies much more to the Silmarillion than the Lord of the Rings. I guess that isn't surprising given that the characters in The Silmarillion tend to be much more complex and ambiguous.

It is easy to find examples for the sins(saving sloth perhaps) but a lot of the "good" characters doom themselves by failing in the virtues.

Je reviens..

[Nogrod]

It may be that one of the reasons why the character of Boromir is hard to pin down with the deadly sins vs. heavenly virtues is the fact that western culture indeed carries two sets of virtues in its inheritance. One from the Middle-Age christianity and the other from the Antiquity (Greek and Roman virtues).

With the virtue-code of Antiquity fex. noble pride or anger (not hate...) are virtues: a good man knows his value and worth (not belittling oneself and thence be untrue) and knows when to anger (for example when facing injustices). I think these older virtues are near Tolkien's heart too, not only the Christian ones.

[Tar-Telperien]

Well, the majority of Númenor's latter-day populace displayed Envy par excellence. Envy doesn't usually get as much attention as some of the other sins, so it is interesting to read a story in which it is the focal point of all the troubles and conflicts.

The Rest of the Sins

Pride: is pretty well represented by most of the major figures in Arda's history (Melkor, Fëanor, Túrin, etc.). Overly proud people, while causing problems for society, do get things moving.

Gluttony: hmm... Hobbits can fall into this. Actually it tends to be a bit of a problem for mortals in general; Bombur was a fat Dwarf after all. But Elves are pretty unafflicted by it (save for those who drank a bit too much wine and passed out in The Hobbit; I bet Thranduil wasn't pleased with them).

Sloth: again, mostly a problem for mortals if anyone. Another one fairly well represented in the Hobbit population (Tolkien himself said as much in his letters).

Lust: this category is so broad that you could fit practically anyone under it, so I won't really bother to try. In the more narrow definition of "rampant sexual desire", it is most clearly displayed by Morgoth when he meets Lúthien.

Greed: Númenor again, big time. The whole world couldn't slake their desire for more material goods (with which they became obsessed to allay their fear of Death).

Wrath: hoo boy. The major denizens of the Wrath category are about the same as the Pride one. However, I'm tempted to include certain Valar and Maiar such as Tulkas and Ossë here.

The Virtues

I'm a whole lot less familiar with the Virtues than the Sins, but I'll give this a try anyway.

Faith: anyone who has estel, which is pretty much its Middle-earth equivalent. Finrod, being the one who describes estel to us in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, is a good candidate. Also Eärendil, for being willing to voyage into the West to save a people who had done him no good (kidnapped his children, no less) because he believed in their need for rescuing.

Hope: again, pretty much the same as estel. Most of the people living in Beleriand after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad somewhat fit this category in that they were still able to soldier on despite their horrific loss.

Charity: Finrod. He gave the gifts of wisdom, kindness, safety, and rest to the lowly race of Men.

Fortitude: most of the heroes, of course. Frodo, especially.

Justice: Mandos. That about says it all.

Temperance: the Faithful of Númenor, who abstained from the decadent practices of their fellows.

Prudence: I dunno... most of the Children of Ilúvatar have the tendency to stick their nose where it doesn't belong. But I think Ulmo showed prudence in his unwillingness to bring the Noldor to Valinor. He actually saw that messing around with the Elves (and basically viewing them as glorified toys for the enjoyment of the Valar) wasn't a good idea and wanted to leave well enough alone.

[Thinlómien]

I would like to add, that Ungoliant is surely an incarnation of lust and gluttony. Just think about her lust for light, the gems and the two trees...

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Nurumaiel

I'm wondering if the first two quotes actually do show that Boromir is Proud, or if he has pride in a different way. I think the Pride that is sinful would be a vain pride. Pride is not necessarily a bad thing; it would be in the way that Pride is manifested. There would be no sin in being proud of an achievement you made, or a good you did, but if it made you look down your nose at people and think of yourself so highly that everyone else about you was foolishly unworthy of your company, 'twould be wrong. Arrogance might be a suitable word.

Proud can also mean Majestic, or of Great Dignity.

I agree. Pride is not always a bad thing. Boromir had intense pride in his accomplishments, and there is nothing wrong with that. The "pride" in the lines

And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance. (The Council of Elrond; page 269)

is no doubt a passage showing Boromir's good pride. Why would Tolkien throw in the words noble and fair if he intended it to be negative? Nay, that passage at least is highlighting the accomplishments Boromir holds high and is proud of. Being stern of glance is being concentrated, a grimness, for Boromir from first hand experience knows the need of Gondor and its allies.

Sure, Boromir came across overwhelming pride when exposed to the Ring. But that was simply human. Sacrifice is something that hasn't been mentioned here. Boromir on more than one occasion, thrice to my mind, shows firm examples of sacrifice...or, the giving up of oneself for another or a cause.

Some examples of Boromir's sacrifice-

1) "Gondor!" Boromir cries as he charges alongside Aragorn towards the Balrog to defend Gandalf. I'm going to have to say that most likely both Boromir and Aragorn would have been killed in this attempt. Sacrifice? Yes sir!

2) Trudging threw the snow and making a path with his bear hands, again alongside Aragorn. Doubtless Boromir did more of the path clearing. Then both proceeded to lug two Hobbits clingling on to them as they again trudged through the cleared path. Sacrifice? Definitely!

3) Most notably, the defense of Merry and Pippin to his death. Redeeming what he had done wrong, Boromir fought til the death defending two little Hobbits he had mistakenly cursed moments before. This is the ultimate sacrifice.

In plain words, Boromir was human. I think people pick him when discussing these "sins" just because it is most apparent with his trying to take the Ring, and the lust it creates. You can see some of the same sins within even a character such as Galadriel. You can easily see virtues just as you can see faults in characters.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I would like to add, that Ungoliant is surely an incarnation of lust and gluttony. Just think about her lust for light, the gems and the two trees...

Yes Lommy, I thought of her for gluttony especially.

While there is lust for power and the ring in LOTR, lust in its primary sexual sense is just about absent, where as the Silmarillion, for all that it is archaic and in many aspects takes place in a more remote world, is populated by more complex and psychologically developed characters, and is in some respects more "worldly". In the Rings the closest you get to lust is Grima in his desire for Eowyn. In the Silmarillion, as well as Morgoth's lust for Luthien mentioned by Tar Telperien, there is Maeglin's near incestuous lust for his cousin Idril, arguably Eol's lust for Aredhel and other instances ..it is all a lot more full blooded (and indeed red blooded ).

Since Tar-Telperien stumpled on Prudence in her splendid list, I would cite Idril (my first age heroine) as a fine example. Thanks to her foresight and preparation some of the people of Gondolin did survive.

[Boromir88]

Ooh my excellent posts, there's a lot about Boromir to talk about here I think. So, here it goes.

When we get straight to the bottomline here, I think Mathew puts it best:

In plain words, Boromir was human.

Boromir is a deep complex character that is faced with the decision to do what is right or give into his temptation. It's as Freud would say a battle between his id and his super-ego. He knows what is 'right,' but is that enough to hold off his desires.

It comes down to a choice and when he tries to take the Ring he makes a bad choice. That in no way however makes him a 'bad' person. We all are faced with decisions, and we all like to make the 'right' choice, but not always do we. And when we do make that bad decision, we can either learn from that and become a better person, or we could spiral downhill and make everything worse.

The thing about Boromir is he knows what he tried to do was absolutely without a doubt wrong; he recognizes he should not have done that and he hates himself for it. However, instead of getting down upon himself and spiral downhill, he recognized what he did was wrong and he goes about to make up for it. Because that is Boromir, that is what defines him, and makes him such a complex character. He recognizes his mistake and he goes about to try to make up for it.

So stepping away a little bit, I'm going to talk about Boromir's pride here. As much as I love him he does suffer from excessive pride (like Denethor):

Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else.~Appendix A: Gondor and the Tales of Anarion; The Stewards

As has been said, Pride can be a good thing, it can be a good trait. However, Pride is also one of the '7 deadly sins' because Pride (to the point of arrogance) is not a good trait. I'm not trying to take anything away from Boromir here, he's without a doubt my favorite character, but I want to try and paint the best picture of him as possible. And that means Pride is something that Boromir has, and Pride (which you apply his lack of humility...in the beginning of the quest) is his weak point; and that is how he falls prey to the Ring.

Boromir loves Gondor, another good trait with him, but this is part of the feed for his tribe. With Boromir it is about Gondor, he has this heir of arrogance when he's talking about his people (because he does love his people and his country). For instance:

'Well,' said Boromir, 'when heads are at a loss bodies must serve, as we say in my country. The strongest of us must seek a way...'~The Ring Goes South

You note an arrogant air about Boromir here, it's the 'We of Minas Tirith' his pride shows up for his country, and then even more so with his insistance that the 'strongest must find a way.'

'Boromir's eyes glinted as he gazed at the golden thing. 'The Halfling!' he muttered. 'Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come at last? But why then should we seek a broken sword?'
'The words were not the doom of Minas Tirith,' said Aragorn. 'But doom and great deeds are indeed at hand....Now that you have seen the sword that you have sought, what would you ask? Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'
'I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meaning of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. 'Yet we are hard pressed, and the Sword of Elendil would be a help beyond our hope - if such a thing could indeed return out of the shadows of the past.' He looked again at Aragorn, and doubt was in his eyes.~The Council of Elrond

At the Council of Elrond Boromir misinterprets the riddle as he believes this whole thing is about Minas Tirith and Minas Tirith only. Than he goes on to poke some jabs at Aragorn.

'Believe not that in the land of Gondor the blood of Numenor is spent, nor all its pride and dignity forgotten. By our valour the wild folk of the East ar still restrained, and the terror of Morgul kept at bay, and thuse alone are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us, bulwark of the West.'~ibid

Now Boromir is right in this case, as Gondor has been a stout defense against Sauron, and has held off enemies for centuries. However, as Aragorn notes:

'If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we [the Dunedain] have played another part...'

The arrogance here about Boromir is that there is peace in the lands in the West solely because of Gondor. To Boromir it's all about Gondor and that's (at least up to this point) he can not see. Aragorn reminds him that there have been others to hold off the 'evil' and it's not solely Gondor.

Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect.

Here's I think a big clue on Boromir's character. Most of these quotes I'm giving are from the Council of Elrond, because we see how Boromir was like from the Council and to who he became and how he changed throughout the quest. When Bilbo offers to take the Ring, Boromir wants to laugh at him, but realizes that others respect this Hobbit greatly and doesn't. We get the impression that Boromir (at this stage) his pride and his feeling of 'what good can these little hobbits do?' Because in Boromir's mind it was through strength of arms that would beat Sauron, it's the strong, and the brave that hold off evil, and that is I feel a big sign of excessive pride.

We mostly see this in Boromir when we first meet him probably due to his background. He is Gondor's leader and he is heir to the Steward's throne. As the Captain-General (or Commander in Chief) of Gondor's army he sees the militaristic view. Therefor he views the ring from a militants perspective. He's also not used to taking orders he's used to giving orders and leading. When he's amongst a company of essentially people of a 'higher status' it takes him a while to adjust and learn humility. He opposes the direction the Fellowship takes on several occasions, and this is probably due again to him dealing with the fact that in the Fellowship he is not the leader like he was back in Gondor.

Hmm, this is already dreadfully long, and I'm not even neard done...hopefully you can all bear with me.

When we first meet Boromir at the Council and early in the journey we do see his pride shine through and we do see that his excessive pride is his weakness. This thought that 'everything is about Minas Tirith,' and as Faramir I think correctly observes:

'I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and fearless, often rash, and ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it.~The Window on the West

There you have it, Boromir's weakness and his draw to the Ring is his pride. I'm not going to sugar-coat anything here, I adore Boromir, but he does have a pride that is to the point of arrogance...his pride for his country and the pride for himself. Now enough beating up on Boromir, as despite this, he is so complex because he is such a loveable guy. And he's so loveable because the changes that occur throughout this journey. As he does change and we do get to see the great noble side of Boromir, as Mathew so excellently observes. He does make his sacrifices for the Fellowship...at first his relationship with Aragorn starts out a bit rocky but then throughout the journey he does grow in friendship with Aragorn...and in the end the recognizing of his own weaknesses and going about to try and make up for it.

Before I talked about Boromir's lack of humbleness, well in the end he actually does learn it; I think it's a great testament to how he has changed when he actually follows Aragorn's orders with no argument at all. Aragorn tells him to go after Merry and Pippin, and to guard them, and he sure does it. Without any opposition Boromir took orders, something he was not used to at all, and something he didn't do without a fight before. There'sone change we see in him.

Another is his acceptance of Aragorn, as Frodo says and Faramir agrees:

'It does,' said Frodo. 'Yet always he treated Aragorn with honour.'
'I doubt it not,' said Faramir. 'If he were satisfied of Aragorn's claim, as you say, he would greatly reverence him...~The Window on the West

Now Faramir does go onto say that neither have come to Minas Tirith where they might end up as rivals and they weren't faced with that 'pinch.' But the point about Boromir is that he does accept Aragorn's claim and he did treat Aragorn 'honourably.' It doesn't matter what might of happened, what matters is what did happen. And Boromir did accept Aragorn:

'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.'~The Breaking of the Fellowship

This exactly isn't the Hollywood ending Jackson gives us of 'our people' and 'my brother.' But if we look at Boromir's progression and we sort of read between the lines I think we can reach the same conclusion. Boromir going from the proud man we see at the Council doubting Aragorn's ability to the point here where he tells Aragorn to go save his people...is I think a huge jump for Boromir. Just like the huge jump he made when he listened to Aragorn's orders. Boromir did become very accepting of Aragorn and if we notice this change that occurred from when we first meet him, to his death, we see this 'acceptance' of Aragorn as his King.

So we are left with someone who had their flaws, their weaknesses, and that led them to a bad choice. Sounds very human-like don't you think? What makes Boromir the person he is at the end (and indeed why he was redeemed in the end) is the sacrifices he made. But above all the changes that took place within him, and ending up as the person he was..a man as Aragorn said 'conquered.'

That would be a great way for me to end it, wouldn't it? But, not quite yet, eventhough this is more about the movies I have to gush about Sean Bean. Absolutely stellar actor and put up an unforgettable performance as Boromir. It was Sean Bean's portrayal of Boromir that got me to notice things about him that I didn't notice before when I had read the books. I'm an avid Bean fan ever since his performance as Boromir and am trying to keep up to date with what he's been up to...just listening to him talk in interviews you can really see that he knows what he's doing as an actor, and he certainly knew what he was doing as Boromir. If you want to talk about Boromir as a man who makes many sacrifices, Sean Bean fits this...he no longer has a fear of heights, but he did when he filmed Lord of the Rings. If you want to talk about sacrifice how about hiking up mountains and for miles in full dress to the shooting location because of his fear to ride in the helicopter. Great casting done by PJ here.

Ok, that's all, sorry to have to put everyone through that.

Edit: Believe it or not I actually x-posted with Mith...haha

[Mithalwen]

Oh Boro...you are such a fan girl.....

I have to say that although Bean was fine as Boromir taken in isolation, I thought it jarred that he kept his regional accent when the Australian actors chosen (and well chosen physically to be plausible) as his father and brother adopted "oxford english" accents.

I have no problem with regional accents per se - it was the inconsistency.

Bean can do Irish when the part demands and seeing as the majority of the cast weren't British but managed to do the accent pretty well, I don't see why he was allowed to get away with making Boromir sound different from his kin and country men. Dom Monaghan and Billy Boyd had hints of accents though I felt that was more acceptable since they are from different parts of the Shire. I know he kept his accent to play Macbeth (which is fine by me.. I don't think non-scots ever try a Scottish accent on that) but it did causee comment in some quarters. As I say it was the difference rather than the accent itself that bothered me....

But this is off topic .....but then since my previous post failed miserably to get the thread away from Boromir...