Arwen's Mortality

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Was Arwens choice between mortality and immortality due to her history or the ring? As in, if her father wasnt Elrond and she was a regular elf, would she be immortal still if she stayed? Or would she be mortal (ie, every elf would be mortal) becaue the age of men came and the rings' power faded and eventually ended?

Arwen was able to choose to give up her Immortality because she was a Half-elf, and they were given a choice as to which fate would be their's. This was indeed because her father was a Half-elf, since his parents were Eärendil and Elwing who were both Half-elven. (Eärendil's father, Tuor, was a Man, and his mother, Idril, was a Noldorin Elf)

Would all Elves have become Mortal? No, I don't think that's possible, since death was Eru's gift to Mortals (Men, Dwarves, etc.) and the Elves could never really have it. Even when they died, it wasn't the same as when a Mortal did. The exception is of course Lúthien, who managed to convince Ilúvatar Himself to let her live another life with Beren as a Mortal.

Hope that made sense, and I hope I understood what you were saying.

[Legolas]

Elnimara is correct. Staying in Middle-earth into the Fourth Age would not automatically transform elves into mortal beings.

Elrond's half-elven family was given the choice - Elrond, his parents, and his brother. It was granted to them for Earendil and Elwing's heroic acts against Morgoth.

Because Elrond married a full elf, Celebrian, the choice was also extended to his children by her. Arwen and her brothers, Elrohir and Elladan, all had to make the decision (and they were supposed to do so before or shortly after Elrond left Middle-earth).

This choice had nothing to do with the One Ring. Peter Jackson may have made it sound so in the movie, but I think it was taken more literally than he intended. Many understood it to imply Arwen's life was magically tied to the Ring somehow. It's Elrond that says something like her fate is tied to it, isn't it? He means it in a logical/emotional way - not some binding, magical way. If the Ring is destroyed, she will stay with Aragorn. If the Ring is not destroyed, she has no reason to stay as Middle-earth will be overtaken by evil and Aragorn will die shortly.

[Farael]

Now, quick question, I can't really give many reasons for it nor to explain too much as it is rather simple.

Why then didn't Aragorn, also a descendant from a half-elf get to choose? or if not Aragorn, as he was far too removed, why not the first few kings of Numenor?

[radagastly]

I think, once Elros chose mortality, and married a mortal, it was simply two mortals, so all their children would also be mortals. That's why his offspring did not get a choice. They were already mortal. After all, as I recall, it was not really a choice of being mortal or not. It was a choice as to which kindred they would belong to, elves or men. The mortality/immortality perk simply went along with that real choice, the Gift of Men, or the immortality of the Elves.

[Annatar!]

One thing i also think that Peter Jackson mis interpreted, or didn't accentuate enough concerning Arwen is that she made the choice to become mortal to her fathers heavy disgreement! In the movies he implied that she would die and that was somehow connected to the ring, and i agree with your description / analysis of the situation Legolas.
In the books Elronds' aggreivance with Arwens choice is more pronounced;

None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.

Perhaps this situation was less "filmable" to Jacksons version, but it certainly has much more effect. In my opinion Jacksons interpretation even undermines the connection between Luthien Tinuviel and Arwen Undomiel, of who's 'likeness' she indeed walked, and who she shared the doom of mortality with. (That all should have been in the movies discussions... sorry)
But yes... the choice to become mortal was only ever given to the 'Peredhil' (a term i believe was only ever applied to Elros and Elrond) but means half-elven therefore includes Dior etc etc etc, although no-one else seemed to 'make' the choice except Elros, Elrond and Elronds children.
This means that when the choice is not conciously made the decendant of Immortal and Mortal appears to automatically be Immortal? As a result; Arwens death (and the inability of the other half-elven to have children with a mortal as they are no longer in ME) signifies the end of the half-elven in middle-earth! Although the most noble blood line to ever exist continues still in both Middle-Earth and Aman!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think that in this case 'bitter' means that their separation was bitter to both of them, not that it created bitterness between them. In the book, Elrond is far more resigned to his daughter's choice, although he does make it a condition of Arwen's marriage that Aragorn should take up his inheritance and reunite Arnor and Gondor.

The point is that the decision is Arwen's to make. Elrond knows better than to make it for her, however painful their parting may be for him. Tolkien repeatedly points out that it's just as difficult to do the right thing as it is to know what the right thing is, and Elrond, Arwen and Aragorn are old and wise enough to do what must be done and endure what must be endured without complaint. I think that certain interpreters have missed that point. The clumsy attempts of film-Elrond to prevent a match of which he had been aware for decades would eventually prove futile and only make his parting from Arwen all the more bitter. Elrond can hardly be expected to be overjoyed at losing his daughter forever, but Tolkien's character has the wisdom and nobility to give in gracefully. Such behaviour goes against the grain of human nature, but I hope that it's still not entirely incomprehensible.

[Legolas]

Why then didn't Aragorn, also a descendant from a half-elf get to choose? or if not Aragorn, as he was far too removed, why not the first few kings of Numenor?

It's in the details.

As I said, "because Elrond married a full elf, Celebrian, the choice was also extended to his children by her." Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen had new immortal blood. That's how Tolkien explains it in Letter No. 153.

The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

The next, hypothetical step is Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir - if they choose immortality and marry elves, do their children get to pick as well? No. Their decision had to be made by a) staying in Middle-earth (mortal) or b) leaving with or shortly after their father (immortal). Once in Aman, the bloodline's fusion into the elven is complete.

[Raynor]

Once in Aman, the bloodline's fusion into the elven is complete.

Well... what if some small-statured elven girl developed a fancy for one of the hobbit ring-bearers that made it to Aman ?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well... what if some small-statured elven girl developed a fancy for one of the hobbit ring-bearers that made it to Aman ?

Or for Gimli?!

[Alchisiel]

As in, if her father wasnt Elrond and she was a regular elf, would she be immortal still if she stayed?

I think everyone has missed part of the question here or I am reading it differently than everyone else, so I will put my two cents in. If Arwen was an elf and not half-elven and stayed in Middle Earth and married Aragorn she would eventually "fade." I believe that in LotR it says that if the elves didn't go to the west they would eventually "fade" and/or become a rustic folk. I can't quite remember where I read it.

I don't think that elves and dwarves would ever get together like that. I think the elves thought the dwarves were too...hm,.....uncouth I guess you would say. As for the hobbits I believe that it is said that Frodo had an elvish look about him and that one of his ancestors might have been a fairy or elf. Logistically I don't think a hobbit and an elf could get together, if you get my meaning as Sam would say. After all hobbits are pretty short.

[Arathul]

Many people mistakenly think that Elrond and the long line of Numenorean Kings has a blood of a two kindred (Elves and Men). Actually it was Three. people tend to forget that Luthien mother, Melian, is a Maia just like Sauron.

[Arathul]

There is other union of Men and Elf besides Beren, Tuor and Aragorn. Remember Imrazor the Numenorean, father of Galador, first Prince of Dol Amroth? Legend has it that he wedded Mithrellas, an elven maid that he found wandering in the wild. what happen to mithrellas do you think?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Farael

Now, quick question, I can't really give many reasons for it nor to explain too much as it is rather simple.

Why then didn't Aragorn, also a descendant from a half-elf get to choose? or if not Aragorn, as he was far too removed, why not the first few kings of Numenor?

As I understand it the choice was given to the sons of Earendil and Elwing, who were Elros and Elrond.

There was no question of Elros or his descendants having the option to become immortal at some later stage - if there had been , the downfall of Numenor would never have happened .

Elrond's choice meant his children were Elven . Arwen's was the " choice of Luthien " , which was a different matter altogether .

I am the Mouth of Sauron .

[Macalaure]

His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time now. This is how I understand it by now, I hope somebody can tell me whether I'm on the right track.

First I thought that Elrond's and Elros' situations are symmetric.
Elrond chose to be an elf. Then he marries an elf. My logic told me that normally elf+elf=elf.
Elros chose to be mortal. Then he marries a mortal woman. Why didn't their children get to choose with a renewed mortal strain? (which was also Farael's question, I think)

I think it is stated in 'Laws and Customs', that if mortal and immortal blood is mixed, the outcome is always mortal. So Earendil and Dior and his children were mortal half-elves in the beginning. Then the Valar had the brilliant idea to let Earendil and Elwing and their children choose between the fates of elves and men. Does this now mean exactly that, that Elrond and Elros chose their different fates, but they still remain half-elves nonetheless and don't actually become Elf or Man? If this is the case, then it is clear: Elrond's and Elros' children would always be mortal - unless new immortal blood comes into play. This renewed elvish strain via Celebrían then seems sufficient reason to give Elrond's children a choice, too.

Do I understand it right?

[A_Brandybuck]

I've also been thinking about this difficulty of the 'renewed elvish strain'. Macalaure's explanation may fit well (and is well, too), but could that be? Every child of an "Elvish-Half-Elven" is mortal?
I don't think so.

Tolkien marks the choice is irrevocable (Letter #153). That sounds like the choice is binding in all ways. Another point is the following quote also from Letter #153:

Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity

Here Tolkien pointed out, that the descendants of Elros are mortal, following from his choice to be mortal. Would Tolkien have pointed that out, when the other choice would have led to the same result?

Somehow the whole thing seems not clear for me.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I think Macalaure's idea is the only plausible argument. Otherwise, the children of two elfs would be elvish, and the children of two humans would be human. That wouldn't make sense at all, becuase then Elros' children would be allowed to choose.

[Legolas]

Manwe did declare previously that any being with any mortal blood would be mortal. This means Dior would've been mortal.

Here Tolkien pointed out, that the descendants of Elros are mortal, following from his choice to be mortal. Would Tolkien have pointed that out, when the other choice would have led to the same result?

No matter what choice Elrohir, Elladan, and Arwen made, their decision to be would permanent as well as settling the matter for their children. Elrond would be gone. A stipulation to the choice was that they leave with or around the time of Elrond, or forever remain in Middle-earth as mortals. So if E, E, or A chose immortality, their children would be born in Aman and have no choice - they'd be immortals. Likewise, if any of the three chose to stay in Middle-earth for good, their children would be mortal.

Source for that 'stipulation' is Appendix A in Lord of the Rings:

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

Macalaure, you have it right here: half-elves do not 'become' elf or man - they simply choose which fate they wish to follow. Tolkien always uses that terminology. In Letter 345:

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.

You also asked this...

Elros chose to be mortal. Then he marries a mortal woman. Why didn't their children get to choose with a renewed mortal strain?

This wasn't a "renewed" mortal strain...their mortal strain needed no renewing. His children needed no choice. The choice of immortality was given to Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen in order to keep their family together if they so desired (as they would be mortal otherwise) - the same reason Earendil's choice was extended to Elros and Elrond.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I still feel like it wasn't thought out enough. So at first i guess we decided they had to choose (and that wasnt even clear), but now that its decided by Elronds staying or leaving?

[Legolas]

They had to choose for themselves. The choice would simply dictate the action. It was certain that Elrond would leave. His departure date was the tentative "deadline" for his children's choice, though we see that Elladan and Elrohir took a little longer to decide. Appendix A, Lord of the Rings:

To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

I think it was quite well planned. It has a greater purpose within the story. Letter No. 153:

The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Legolas

I think it was quite well planned. It has a greater purpose within the story. Letter No. 153:

I think we can view in the same line the prophecy of Melian, concerning Beren, who was the highly important to the above mentioned ennoblement:

Originally Posted by Of the coming of Men into the West

Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.

[A_Brandybuck]

Another question is bothering me. Tolkien made clear, that Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen had to make their choices. They could delay their choice, but not for forever. But what if they don't choose?

Until the end of the Third Age they have (seemingly) lived like Elves. They have owned the youth of the Eldar and didn't age like mortal men. But they weren't Elves, but Half-Elves. They could live like the Eldar for all the time and delay their choice and delay their choice and delay their choice, if there is no force to choose. But what if there don't choose?

Or does their choice is bound to their behavior? I mean, could their choice can automatically derive from their decision to settle down in Middle-Earth or to leave Middle-Earth. The Elves are fading, the time of the Elves ends in Middle-Earth. Leaving Middle-Earth could only mean to choose to be among the Firstborn, but could staying mean to choose to be mortal?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Well, we simply don't know the answer. The only unknowns, when it's all said and done, are Elladan and Elrohir. Tolkien says in his Letters, and Legolas (the Downer, not the Elf) alluded to it, that just because they didn't go with Elrond, didn't mean they were choosing mortality. They merely delayed their choice.

I would guess that if they remained in M-E past a certain point, that they would indeed become mortal. But what would that point be? Perhaps after the last ship had departed the Havens? But that's mere speculation.

[Raynor]

I was thinking about their choice this same day! Great minds think alike

I really wonder if there are some things that could invalidate such a choice; can you claim that you were drunk (or mad, or under spell, etc) when you made it and then have another go at it? is forced decision a reason to invalidate it? And if you can't invalidate it, can you at least get a second "life" in Middle-Earth, like Luthien & co? I have an evil feeling the answer to all this is no.

[Annatar!]

The whole point of the choice is that it is irrevocable. Elros was a Peredhil who chose to live as a mortal, albeit with a much extended life-span. Elrond chose to be among the immortal. The choice was then only extended into Elronds family. Why; because to choose the mortal path meant death in ME, to choose the immortal meant that at some point in time your life would continue in Aman, whether there was a time limit on your arrival in Aman is mere conjecture. The decision to become mortal is akin to the choice of Luthien; who chose to live a second life as a mortal and to die indeed, leaving the circles of the world forever.