Temptation of Boromir

[Alchisiel]

I am reading LotR again and it seems each time I read it there is a new question to ask. So here goes, why do you think that Boromir was so tempted by the ring? He never held it, but desired it greatly. Even Gollum when first discovering the ring held by Deagol desired it and even killed for it but never touched it until after the killing. Why do you suppose they desired it so greatly? Everyone at the Council of Elrond saw the ring but why is it that only Boromir desired it so greatly that he tried to take it from Frodo?

[Boromir88]

I think there are several determining factors when it comes to one's resistance/temptation towards the Ring. I also think there is a level of importance as far as how easily one is tempted. In my opinion, these are the order of important factors when it comes to one's fall/corruptability of the Ring. And this is sort of just my personal feeling, and can easily be debated.

1) The circumstances one acquires the Ring
2) The mindset/personality of the individual
3) The knowledge of the Ring
4) The Time of Possession

I'll first start out with the fact that I don't think how close one gets to the Ring, or any 'physical contact' with the Ring effects the person's corruptability. You bring up Boromir who only sees the Ring, and never really touches it. I'll further explain Denethor, but just to point out, Denethor never comes even close to seeing or touching the Ring, yet he shows a desire to possess it, and it is because he falls into the factors above.

1) The circumstances one acquires it-

Gandalf makes clear that if one is 'good intended' when they acquire the Ring, the corruption of them is slower:

"Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him."~Shadow of the Past

If one acquires the Ring under 'good intentions' the corruptability is a lot slower. Bilbo is one who does this:

"Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy; not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity."~ibid

Counter that with Gollum, who murders to get the Ring, and his fall and the strong hold of the Ring over Gollum happens a lot sooner than it would Bilbo. (Bilbo after 60 years was still in an 'early stage' of influence towards the Ring, because of the circumstances where he got it and the other factors).

2) The mindset of the individual-

Are they someone who desires power and glory for themselves? Like Boromir? Or someone who is much more simple and knows what they have is good enough for them, like Sam.

Boromir is in the mindset that the Ring is a weapon for him, and it will give him power to command, this makes him an extremely easy target for the Ring:

"What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir? The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banners."~Breaking of the Fellowship

So, it is Boromir's personality and his refusal to accept the Council's words that using the Ring against Sauron would bring everyone's downfall. To put it as Faramir would say, he could see exactly why Boromir would be allured to it, because to Boromir it would be seen as a weapon and he would be glorified.

We see this very thing in Denethor, who never even comes close to the Ring, where at least Boromir is with it. But, it is Denethor's prideful personality, and his thought of "I would do anything to save my Realm" that makes him susceptible to the Ring:

'He would have brought me a mighty gift.'
[...]
'Nay, it should be kept, hidden, hidden dark and deep. Not used, I say, unless at the uttermost end of need...'
[...]
'If I had this thing now in the deep vaults of the Citadel...'~The Siege of Gondor.

Denethor already desires to possess it, and eventhough he says it should not be used, he shows a want to possess it. And he puts conditions upon the Ring...'I won't use it unless I absolutely have to.'

And as the antithesis of Boromir and Denethor, is Sam. Who actually does possess the Ring, and hold it, though for a short while. However it's Sam's mindset that is able to make him give the Ring back:

In that hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command.~The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Sam knew the Ring was trying to treat him, but he was a simple hobbit, and the temptation of turning the Gorgoroth into a grand and beautiful garden, he rejected, because his 'small garden' was good enough for him.

3) Knowledge-

Bilbo didn't know much about the Ring, and he saw it as an occasional trick and fun play:

..."How long have you known this?" asked Frodo at length. "And how much did Bilbo know?"
"Bilbo knew no more than he told you, I am sure," said Gandalf. "He would certainly never have passed onto you anything that he thought would be a danger, even though I promised to look after you. He thought that the ring was very beautiful, and very useful at need; and if anything was wrong or queer, it was himself. He said that it was "growing on his mind," and he was always worrying about it; but he did not suspect that the ring itself was to blame. Though he had bound that the thing needed looking after; it did not seem always of the same size or weight; it shrank or expanded in an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight."~Shadow of the Past

Gandalf certainly knew more about the Ring than Bilbo, and this would make him far more dangerous as a possessor, knowning more about the Ring and it's maker.

4) Time of Possession-

As Gandalf puts it, no matter the circumstances one gets it, good-intentions or not, the Ring over time the Ring will eventually gain control over the bearer. But, I don't think it's as big as a factor as the other ones seem to be, as it appears that if you have a simple mindset like Sam, or good intentions, you could resist the Ring.

I hope that answers it. Boromir fell to the Ring, because of his personality and it made him a target for the Ring even before he knew or came across it. The Ring preys on individuals like that. And had Denethor come across the Ring, he too would have tried to take it, because of his mindset.

[Alchisiel]

Good points Boromir88, I had not thought about Boromir wanting to, oh how would say, defend his homeland? But I tend to disagree with you concerning Gollum, as I believe he was not evil when the ring appeared but did become so upon killing Deagol. It is said that Smeagol's people were like to hobbits so he couldn't have been evil from the start. Hobbits are not evil, they have good hearts. Maybe it's in how he used it once he possessed it then? As I remember he used it to spy on people to find out secrets and what not. True?

[Boromir88]

But I tend to disagree with you concerning Gollum, as I believe he was not evil when the ring appeared but did become so upon killing Deagol.

I wouldn't call Gollum (as Smeagol) evil. Gollum nearly repented, because of his love for Frodo, and he remembered his life as Smeagol. As I believe is said somewhere he still had a 'small corner' of his mind that wasn't under the Ring's influence...and that 'corner' was Smeagol. He was able to remember his name before he got the Ring, and it was this 'corner' of his mind that remained uncorrupted by the Ring. He nearly repented, but it was Sam's lack of Pity for him at the time that made redemption impossible for Gollum.

Gollum was still able to remember his former name...Smeagol. Which I think is of importance...if we look at those completely under the dominion of Sauron (The Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron), they don't remember their names, or are given none, they virtually have no identity as they are completely under Sauron's control. Where Gollum still remembered his life as Smeagol, and had this 'small corner.'

Saying all that, I agree that Smeagol was not 'evil,' and I see how you believed I thought that. I don't think Smeagol was evil, but as we all do, we all have the capability of doing evil, even if we aren't. I wouldn't call Boromir 'evil,' but his mindset is what makes him fall to the Ring...I think it's the same thing for Gollum.

Gollum believed he deserved the Ring because it was his 'birthday' and the Ring would be his 'birthday gift,' so he already was searching for an excuse to lay claim to the Ring as his. I don't think this makes him evil, but it's what causes him to commit and evil act, and murder for the Ring...his belief that the Ring is his gift, for his birthday.

I think it's similar to Isildur's claim...

'This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother'~The Council of Elrond

Isildur set a perfectly legal and right claim of 'weregild' on the Ring. Weregild was a way of stopping feuds to arise between families. If someone injured or killed your property, a family member...etc, the guilty party would repay them in 'weregild' to settle any disputes. So, killing a slave for example, wouldn't really get much payment for. But, someone killing your father (who happens to be the King) and your brother, the weregild would be extremely costly, and Isildur takes Sauron's most valuable possession.

So, Isildur, lays a perfectly legal claim of 'weregild' to take the Ring as payment for the death of his father and brother...however I think we can question his true purpose (meaning morally). Isildur claiming weregild is just his attempt to convince himself that he has the only claim to the Ring. Just like how Gollum justified his claim on the Ring as it was 'his birthday present.' With Isildur it was 'weregild' in payment for the death of his father and brother.

Again, I don't think this means Isildur and Gollum were 'evil.' But, they both laid a justification as to why they deserve the Ring, and it is this action which made them susceptible to the Ring.

[Raynor]

Again, I don't think this means Isildur and Gollum were 'evil.'

Debatable; Tolkien made some interesting refferences to Gollum in letter #181; though he did agree that the ring was too powerful for him to withstand, he also notes that he was already corrupted; he "appears 'damnable'", he has a "mean soul" and is described as a "mean son of a thief" [sic].

Was Isildur's claim right? I don't think so, by any standard. He wasn't the only one to lose a dear person; if anything, the Ring was a "weregild" for all those who somehow lost someone to Sauron - if anything, the Ring is more of an elven matter than a Mannish one. And on the moral plane, his claim is highly questionable, since it perpetuated Sauron's power.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Again, I don't think this means Isildur and Gollum were 'evil.'

I disagree. Hobbits can be evil, as in the Chief and Ted Sandyman; the latter so evil that he didn't even wash up! Smeagol, seeing Deagol's Ring, didn't just decide then and there to commit murder. That seed was already planted in Smeagol, and he was either tending towards evil from a young age and/or was a spoiled brat. The reason that I think this is that other hobbits see the Ring in another hobbit's possession yet don't suddenly become hobbicidal.

Like others who turned to the dark side; there's always the call, but one must actively choose to listen (Sauron, Saruman, Grima, Ted, etc).

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Gollum: Even before reading "Letters", from LOTR itself, it
seems clear from Gandalf's account to Frodo in Bagend that
Smeagol's early life and character predisposed him towards
evil, as did his almost instantaneous murder of Deagol
(as compared to Boromir's slow corruption of character---and
interesting repentence as soon as Frodo fled).

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Gollum: Even before reading "Letters", from LOTR itself, it
seems clear from Gandalf's account to Frodo in Bagend that
Smeagol's early life and character predisposed him towards
evil, as did his almost instantaneous murder of Deagol
(as compared to Boromir's slow corruption of character---and
interesting repentence as soon as Frodo fled).

Indeed...Boromir was a good man, and the Ring fed off of his good intentions. Which is why instantly after Frodo leaves and Boromir's temptation passes, he weeps. You also have to keep in mind that Boromir was the Captain of the White Tower. He was the Steward's son. Imagine the excess glory (I say excess because Boromir was already accounted as Gondor's greatest warrior at the time) that awaited him coming home after defeating the Dark Lord with his own weapon? The Ring played on him for such glories. Gollum is a completely different story...

Ok, you can all keep debating about Gollum, I just wanted to get something in about Boromir

[Alchisiel]

So this leads me to another question, why didn't the ring try to tempt Aragorn? He wanted to go with Boromir to help deliver Minas Tirith from Sauron so why not tempt him? Is it because he is Isildur's heir, and had a "right" to the ring or is it because he is of noble blood, or what?

I would like to say this of Boromir, I never have thought of him as evil or weak. I see him as a man with a great love for his people and homeland, who wanted to help his people so desperately that the ring used it against him.

[Raynor]

Is it because he is Isildur's heir, and had a "right" to the ring or is it because he is of noble blood, or what?

I think it is his moral nobility that protected him; the ring has only one master, as noted by Gandalf

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR

We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil.

and Tolkien himself

Originally Posted by Letter #246

Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Alchisiel

So this leads me to another question, why didn't the ring try to tempt Aragorn? He wanted to go with Boromir to help deliver Minas Tirith from Sauron so why not tempt him? Is it because he is Isildur's heir, and had a "right" to the ring or is it because he is of noble blood, or what?

I would think that it might be because Aragorn knew the history of the Ring too well; he knew what would happen if he'd left himself to be tempted. Also, Aragorn's love for Gandalf and Elrond might have been a reason. Besides, I think his heart was different from Boromir's. (Can't explain how.)

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I would think that it might be because Aragorn knew the history of the Ring too well; he knew what would happen if he'd left himself to be tempted. Also, Aragorn's love for Gandalf and Elrond might have been a reason. Besides, I think his heart was different from Boromir's. (Can't explain how.)

Originally Posted by Letter #246
Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself.

And I'm missing one quote, that has been quoted many times before... Only Gandalf, of all the powerful elves/humans/ainur had any hopes of mastering the ring and fighting Sauron for dominion (even if he was doomed to fall to the tempation of the ring and become another Dark Lord).

As Thinlomien smartyle explained, many of the characters in the council of Elrond would have not taken the ring, or would have taken it and guarded it until the end... but Boromir was different. Not only he would have taken the ring but he would have used actively to puruse victory on the battlefield... which, we are lead to think would have been ill-advised, as he would not have been able to master the Ring to its full potential and would have been ultimately overthrown and given Sauron the very thing he meant to keep away from him.

So why does Boromir feel more temptation than everyone else at the council or any other of the nine walkers? I've always thought that it was because the ring knew that Boromir was his best bet to get back to Sauron soon.

Choose Elrond and you'll be hidden and guarded until the very end (when the ring would not really be THAT necessary anymore). Choose Aragorn and it is the same scenario. Choose Gandalf and Sauron might be overthrown, and the ring being a part of Sauron himself I'm sure it didn't really want that to happen. Choose a hobbit and the ring will probably be lost in the middle of nowhere, it's easier to have it on the battlefront where a good sword or even a lucky arrow might do the trick. Think of anyone else and what that character is likely to do... and so far, I find that Boromir (in spite of his noble intentions) would have been the one to surrender the ring sooner than the rest.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Farael

Choose Elrond and you'll be hidden and guarded until the very end (when the ring would not really be THAT necessary anymore). Choose Aragorn and it is the same scenario. Choose Gandalf and Sauron might be overthrown, and the ring being a part of Sauron himself I'm sure it didn't really want that to happen. Choose a hobbit and the ring will probably be lost in the middle of nowhere, it's easier to have it on the battlefront where a good sword or even a lucky arrow might do the trick. Think of anyone else and what that character is likely to do... and so far, I find that Boromir (in spite of his noble intentions) would have been the one to surrender the ring sooner than the rest.

None were safe. Aragorn, properly motivated, could have taken and used the Ring actively. If Sauron knew that this scion of the West were still around and was near the Ring, and also knew of the secret love between Aragorn and Arwen, well, it wouldn't take much imagination (lucky for me ) to come up with a scenario where Aragorn actually chooses to take the Ring, by force if necessary, from Frodo or Gandalf or whoever else bore it. My assumption is that that is what Sauron thought when the Lords of the West marched to his door - that Aragorn claimed the Ring.

What would Elrond or Aragorn do if Arwen were held captive in Barad-dur? What if her death were imminent and the Ring was available? What would these two do for love?

That what Boromir did. He thought to claim the Ring to protect/save those whom he loved (and sure, there'd be some glory in it as well...).

[Tuor in Gondolin]

What about this for a scenario (perhaps including
captive Arwen)? Elrond and Aragorn know that if they have
the ring they probably can't dispose of it after disposing
of Sauron, so they agree that immediately after Sauron's gone
the one without the ring will kill the one with it (or nudge
him into Orodruin---in a setting rather like the scene of Isildur and
Elrond in the movie)?

And would such a scenario work with Faramir (book Faramir
of course) vis-a-vis Boromir?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

What about this for a scenario (perhaps including captive Arwen)? Elrond and Aragorn know that if they have the ring they probably can't dispose of it after disposing of Sauron, so they agree that immediately after Sauron's gone the one without the ring will kill the one with it (or nudge him into Orodruin---in a setting rather like the scene of Isildur and Elrond in the movie)?

Isn't that called, "getting Gollumed?" And the Ring wouldn't permit itself and its bearer to be pushed. After overthrowing Sauron with the Ring, the bearer would have been hooked; the symbiosis could not be reversed.

And would such a scenario work with Faramir (book Faramir of course) vis-a-vis Boromir?

Not exactly sure what you mean. Do you mean that Boromir would get pushed by his brother?

With either case I just get this feeling that the act of 'pushing' would begat yet another evil. It smells too much like Saruman's kind of thinking.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

They all wanted it .

Unfortunately for Boromir he was unable to supress his lust for the Ring whereas most others were able to control their desire - e.g. Galadriel , Gandalf , Faramir .

I am the Mouth of Sauron .