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07-06-2006, 12:05 PM | #241 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it.
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Also, I'll be watching you Valier, just in case you decide to pull that campaign of yours when your guilty. (Though I'd still enjoy seeing it.) And Valesse, very well written. I was thoroughly amused every time.
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We can't all be Roas when it comes to analysing... -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen |
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07-06-2006, 12:57 PM | #242 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Kudos for the wolves for being so bold!
Think how I felt, when in the middle of Day2 I noticed being voted consequently by "all the wolves"! Yes, that was the turning point (Roa's vote), when I started lowering my suspicions on Eomer. Valier totally went under my radar, but Kit and Roa were there all the time, as numbers one and two. Had I just had one Day more... But surely - as I said in the end - Roa secured her evil kill at the last minutes. She probably had written that nicely in advance and then just waited for the tactically right moment to throw it in so that the last possibly wawering voters would go her way. That's one of the reasons I admire her gaming. She's an overkill! And I agree with Roa's bafflement. Why didn't you go to see such basic thing like voting records or something? I tried to yell with all my lungs thrown in through the keyboard: "See! See! There are the wolves confidently lying at the best possible spots on Day1 voting list!" - the ones I had pointed you otherwise earlier... Only Macalaure seemed to pay heed to those. One thing I also am a bit baffled about was the consensus of me being suspicious. Forgive me, but would a wolf play like that? A nice clean and early vote for Glirdy or Form on Day1 and then out from the game (not involving oneself in the end of the Day) and then some this and that, maybe loose theories towards those already found suspicious by others (or those no one had bothered yet - as to look helpful) etc. - and through the Day2 with no actual effort or involvement. Yes and a wolf-win... But it was fun as long as it lasted! From a long time I had time - and as Maca put it correctly, I really didn't care. I wanted to find the wolves and thaet's what I tried to do. I thought you others could draw your conclusions. Well you sure did, with the assistance of these ingenious wolves... Maybe next time I try the under-radar stuff? (probably get killed on Day1 just for that reason...) But I enjoyed it with all of you! It's always nice to have tension and be pressed to perform well. Somehow I'm a bit disappointed of not managing to get you convinced, but being right with two wolves and four innocents kind of help to heal the wounds... Thank's everyone! And Valesse too. Hilarious!
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
07-06-2006, 01:18 PM | #243 | |
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,648
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I've learned that my instincts are better than my analysis often times. In the last two games I've identified two to three wolves and had them as my top candidates I die and nobody listens to what I had to say. Shortly after this I dropped my suspicion of Eomer so Valier and Roa were on top. Oh that you would have listened to me Kitanna looked odd but as I trusted Nogrod and I didn't know what to think of Kitanna I wanted him to take that and he did.
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
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07-06-2006, 01:33 PM | #244 |
Dead Serious
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This is the first time I've ever made noises at the computer after being killed... noises along the lines of "Idiots! Idiots! Don't lynch him!!! ARGH!"
Yeah... I stand by what I was saying: Idiots!
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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07-06-2006, 02:15 PM | #245 |
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
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Amazing game by the wolves. Just amazing.
Valier wasn't anywhere near my radar and Roa and Kitanna, well, you teamed up so obviously on Day 2 I couldn't believe you both were wolves. Roa, you scare me. And I still cannot believe Eomer is innocent. I didn't trust my eyes when I first read it. I'm sorry my language got a bit harsh at the end - I was just too sure and confident. And chapeau to Nogrod, who was closest of all of us to identify the lupines. Last edited by Macalaure; 07-06-2006 at 02:15 PM. Reason: forgot a word |
07-06-2006, 02:47 PM | #246 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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07-06-2006, 02:51 PM | #247 |
Dead Serious
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Actually.... I've got to ask...
Assuming that Glirdy and I had tied votes at the end of Day 1, would my assumption that I (having garned the votes first) have been lynched, be correct? I've heard some whining that I didn't do myself any favours by waiting so long reveal my seerness- but the fact is that until the last minute (which is when I posted in revelation) I hoped to survive the Night. By the time I posted that Morm was innocent, it looked plain to me that I was going to be lynched- so I made sure that the village knew who I'd dreamed of. Mith coming along and saving me merely meant that the Wolves had to finish me off, instead of the village.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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07-06-2006, 03:00 PM | #248 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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Quote:
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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07-06-2006, 03:25 PM | #249 | |
Dead Serious
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But for me, I had no idea you were coming back. By that point, it looked like my fate was sealed... and I didn't want my Seership COMPLETEY wasted.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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07-06-2006, 03:42 PM | #250 |
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,648
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Being the seer can be tricky because you must be moderately suspicious but not enough to get you killed. I wasn't going to be lynched in one game but the problem was that our hunter thought I was guilty enough to kill me . I cannot decide which role I enjoy the most...Seer or WW. Both I don't get enough
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
07-06-2006, 07:23 PM | #251 | |||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it.
Posts: 1,696
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We can't all be Roas when it comes to analysing... -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen |
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07-09-2006, 09:52 PM | #252 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Could it be more anemic? People don't participate in the game, don't want to get involved in the game (but just to lynch those who would involved themselves) and don't bother to discuss it afterwards?
Then with a pretty small village they have three werewolves and lose in straight Days just because of not trying. And people don't even bother to complain! Yeah, that's life. No can do... Thanks Valesse for trying, but this village seemed to have been dead even before it started? Bad luck - or something else...
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
07-10-2006, 02:40 AM | #253 | |
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
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Since this was only my second game I didn't dare to really complain, but now that you ask for it...
The first problem was, of course, that it was a very small village. Three lynchings go the wrong way and that was it. But that was the challenge of this game. Then we had quite bold wolves. All of them got involved in the Day1-bandwaggons and Roa and Kitanna ruth- and fearlessly fueled the lynching of Nogrod on Day2. Apart from Nogrod, there were no bold innocents against them. It is sad, that most other innocents thought im guilty because of this or didn't care about it. And then, a lot of things went wrong. We lost the seer in Night1, known innocent Mormegil wasn't able to contribute a lot on Day2 and Eomer attracted almost all suspicion to him on Day3. Quote:
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07-10-2006, 06:39 AM | #254 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
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Maybe we're playing too many games.
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Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
07-10-2006, 06:41 AM | #255 | ||
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,648
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
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07-10-2006, 07:57 AM | #256 | |
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
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Bold wolves aren't necessarily a problem, of course. But this time, without a bold innocent to withstand them left, we were easy prey. Maybe we didn't make up enough of our own thoughts as well and too many of us went with those whose words sounded most fair - or convenient.
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07-10-2006, 09:31 AM | #257 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it.
Posts: 1,696
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Just to drive the point home, Naria, who wasn't even participating in the game, had me pegged on Day 2. Why? Because I completely made up the case against Nogrod, and he and Jenny were the only ones that caught it. I had a busy week and didn't have the time to go against someone with a thorough case up until the last few minutes of the game with Eomer. (I didn't make stuff up on that one, though.)
Personally, I was glad no one listened to morm. If he had come up with a more reasonable case than "I suspect these people," (what was your case against Valier?) then he might have been more successful. Part of the reason I started the debate with Nogrod was to drive attention that way instead of with the known innocent. And with everyone so quiet and Nogrod and Eomer going right in, it wasn't difficult. And to all you people who think summaries and analysis are pointless and unhelpful, look at the power they have, or could have had. I believe the only one who did analysis at all was Jenny, and they were all but ignored! Yes, it takes some effort to go through everyone's posts, firgure out what they're really saying, put it all in order next to each other so as to see the discrepencies, and come to conclusions based on those, but really it's worth it. and sure, it may take a little extra reading time to go through someone else's analysis and determine if it's fair/accurate or not. I've used it as both an innocent catching wolves (from my very first game where I used it to catch Valier to my last game as an innocent where it caught Boromir on Day 1 *sticks tongue out at Form*) and as a wolf misdirecting innocents (really, everywhere- look.)
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We can't all be Roas when it comes to analysing... -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen |
07-10-2006, 09:35 AM | #258 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it.
Posts: 1,696
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We can't all be Roas when it comes to analysing... -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen |
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07-10-2006, 11:28 AM | #259 | ||
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Bad game, sorry to say this. Some people tried, too many didn't.
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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07-10-2006, 11:55 AM | #260 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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Some of us tried our best. Obviously it wasn't good enough but people who live in glass houses.....
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
07-10-2006, 12:33 PM | #261 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
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I didn't do as much as I could have done but I had a lot of other, more pressing, matters to attend to last week. I certainly wasn't free enough to get obsessed by the game. I think we must always bear* in mind that it's just a game and we should try to put having fun ahead of meticulously getting everything right.
*used the right one this time.
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Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
07-10-2006, 12:41 PM | #262 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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Oh Eomer..you are no fun anymore ...
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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07-10-2006, 05:52 PM | #263 |
Eidolon of a Took
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: my own private fantasy world
Posts: 3,460
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Eomer speaks sense. I followed this whole game though I didn't play in it, and I didn't play because I knew I wouldn't have the time to throw myself completely into it, and I knew that if I didn't, I would spend most of my available time defending myself for not being able to throw myself completely into it. Werewolf these days seems to be getting more and more about grading other people's playing until it's not fun anymore -- the fear of being deemed stupid, useless, lazy, or reprehensible because you can't live up to other people's exacting standards overrides any enjoyment. So I've decided it's better not to play at all if I don't have the time to be (or inclination to reject real life in favor of) totally immersing myself. And that's sad, because I really have had fun with Werewolf.
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All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression. |
07-10-2006, 08:51 PM | #264 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it.
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And I believe you've heard me say this many times before- if you don't think you'll be able to give the necessary time to the game, don't sign up. It's not about wether or not you want to have fun or not get accused of not participating, it's about consideration for your fellow players, and wether or not your going to give them a good game. The measure of a game is only partly the mod's responsibility. The rest is our own doing. Everyone in this game is known, to me at least, as a very good werewolf player, with great skill. We are all highly intelligent people, capable of great games. This game we were all under par. We've all done better than this in the past. When that happens, the best thing you can do is to look for what went wrong, and decide how you can do better next time, instead of whining about how harsh we're being.
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We can't all be Roas when it comes to analysing... -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen |
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07-10-2006, 09:54 PM | #265 | ||
Eidolon of a Took
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: my own private fantasy world
Posts: 3,460
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My point was that it's just a game and if you take it too seriously you zap a bit of the fun out of it for the people around you. Then it's no longer a game, it's something altogether less "fun and games" and more "this will be going on your transcript and/or résumé."
Hey, you win some, you lose some. In some games people are really "on" and others they're not. Sometimes the village wins and sometimes the wolves win. I can understand Nogrod's frustration (even though I think the attempt to send everyone on guilt-trips is quite over the top) as he was on the losing team but you could at least accept your win with a positive attitude instead of complaining that it was too easy. Anyway, you completely missed my point, it isn't about constructive critiscm vs. hollow compliments, it's about stopping to realize when in life these things actually matter enough to keep going at them like a dog with a bone. There's a difference between realizing where people won or lost games (whichever side they're on) and complaining about it at length. I was just reacting to the decidedly whiney or condeming tone to many of the posts, and I thought that someone who didn't play in this particular game could stand up for the idea that losing (or winning too easily) isn't the end of the world. Quote:
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All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression. |
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07-10-2006, 11:59 PM | #266 |
Dead Serious
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Okay, I think we're all aware of the Diamond/Roa vendetta regarding WW playing styles... so enough out of you two. Let someone else do the arguing.
Though I admit the validity of Roa's arguments, and can see where she's coming from, I definitely come down on Diamond's side of the argument. I am going to be online at A,B, and C times of day, and I'll do what I can during those times, and I'll make sure I vote (well, except for that one moment of lapsed memory during Cailin's game, after which I was killed by Jenny anyway...). I'm not going to play by anybody's conventions, but what the rules require and I myself stipulate. You guys wonder why I go on and on about Day 1s? My post back there ingame- the one in which I was accused of backpedalling my first post's statements- was perfectly true to life. And I DO largely do it to tweak people's noses. You tell me how to play, and I'm going to ignore you. I've been Werewolfing long enough that I think I know how the game's played. And if I die on Day 1 or so... well that's REALLY disappointing, but I'll take it in stride, 'cause I sure ain't changing my style just to suit you lot. And changing my style would be equally suspicious anyway... Seriously, no matter what you do... there's going to be a winner and a loser. (Well, except in my game....) And to expect the same commitment from every player, every time is just... foolish. It's summer, people have lives. I suspect if you look at WW VII, or other games from last summer, you won't see "Duelling Wizards" levels of intensity.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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07-11-2006, 03:41 AM | #267 |
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
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I really don't see what the current quarrel is about.
Of course, playing Werewolf is about fun. But, of course, as it is with any other game as well, playing is most fun if everybody is trying to play at their best. And, of course, as soon as it is only about playing the best one can, the fun goes down. The truth is somewhere in between. I think this is quite common sense, after all. And Diamond, Nogrod is not trying to send us on guilt-trips (at least this is how I understand it). Almost everybody wasn't playing at or near his/her best, and he was a little disgruntled that nobody actually discussed why this was the case and everybody just accepted it. |
07-11-2006, 06:01 AM | #268 |
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
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Hey, peeps...
I really don't like the implication that the villagers didn't put into the game everything we should. Sometimes, Noggie, the wolves win, and are better than us, and manipulate us. It happens. Life is a straw--suck it up! And hear, hear, Diamond! I'm about fed up with all the people who take this game so seriously. I'm especially fed up with all the ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with others on how the game ought to be played.
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07-11-2006, 07:57 AM | #269 |
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,648
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Hey Valesse thanks for a wonderful game. I had fun.
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
07-11-2006, 08:01 AM | #270 |
Child of the West
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Watching President Fillmore ride a unicorn
Posts: 2,132
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Indeed, this whole post-game conversation is a waste. I had fun even if others think not enough effort has been put forward. But if this is how WW games are going to be from now on, I think I'll retire from them.
Thanks Valesse for a fun and enjoyable game, your modding was excellent. And thank you Diamond for your insight.
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"Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain |
07-11-2006, 09:04 AM | #271 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Sorry. I may have expressed myself badly or given bad impressions. Surely I have not intended to pick up on anyone ar anything like that. If I have, I'm very sorry. That has not been intended.
Yes. I had fun (especially on Day2). If I wouldn't have fun playing WW, I wouldn't play. Also having fun is the reason to play, not winning. That I have voiced many times here. I'll be much more satisfied with a great and lost game than with a bad but won one. (That's one of the reasons I disapprove the playing-style of one post/Day. It's quite easy to survive a long time with that style, but is it fun to anyone? It seems more like a calculated style to win, not an effort to actually play) The wolves outwitted the village left-handedly this time around. They played really well. We villagers weren't that good here. Yeah, that happens.
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
07-11-2006, 09:36 AM | #272 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it.
Posts: 1,696
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Were we going on and on about something? I don't think so. Three people chimed in with their opinion of the whole thing, and suddenly we're putting everyone down, and making it un-fun, and being totally unfair. Well, you may resent me for saying we didn't do very well this game, but I can be equally resentful for being attacked and accused of being selfish and domineering everytime I try to be helpful about pointing out what went wrong and how we can do better next time. I notice that no one has actually made a point against Nogrod's, Mac's and my statements, except to say that they were busy. Well, guess what? We're all busy. Some of more than others. I've stated already that I was exceptionally busy this game. But I made time for it out of respect for you people. Is it really too much to expect a reciprocal?
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We can't all be Roas when it comes to analysing... -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen |
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07-11-2006, 09:41 AM | #273 | ||||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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This post is not intended as a personal criticism of either Nogrod or Roa. The points made below are applicable equally to others, I am sure. But some of the comments made by them above are illustrative, I think, of where the current problems may have arisen, at least in part.
I would also note that matters have not been helped by what I consider to be an overreaction to some of the earlier comments made on this thread. There is a responsibility on both sides of this debate to keep things civil and avoid personal comment. Quote:
First, what is a great game? What may be a great game for you might be a bad game for someone else. And vice versa. I think that one of the problems that has arisen here is the attempt to define the quality of a game by reference to the way in which either you or others have played. All games are unique. All have particular points of interest. I think that it is best to avoid seeking to lay the blame anywhere (whether on yourself or others) if you personally did not enjoy a game. Secondly, it may be a language issue, but expressing disapproval of a particular playing style suggests that it is somehow "wrong" or "bad" on an objective basis. Fine if you subjectively dislike a particular playing style, just like Form dislikes Day 1s. We can all have different opinions about that. But there is no "approved" or "unapproved" playing style. All are fine, provided that the minimum commitment requirements are met. Quote:
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OK. I have said my piece. I will re-open this thread, but ask that any further comments be directed towards the game in question and that they be made in the spirit of civil and constructive debate. The points made above give rise to general issues which I am happy to discuss further on the Tol-in-Gaurhoth admin thread. Again, though, I would counsel that all who participate do so in a civil and respectful manner.
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 07-11-2006 at 10:31 AM. |
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