all British tolkienites HERE

[the guy who be short]

the big read is here. they are trying to find britains favourite book. please go on the big read websiteand vote for the lord of the rings. not fotr, tt, or rotk please, as theyre all actually part of the same book.
i know this is not actually a discussion, but please keep it on here until the 19th of april so ii can rig this election.

[the guy who be short]

ok, ill turn it into a discussion. what did you put on your "you should read this book because" bit? i put:

you must read this book. it is not just a novel, it is an entire history. its morals and meanings stay with you for the rest of your life. you find yourself quoting lines and singing songs from it. it becomes a part of you.

[the guy who be short]

i dont think theyll check where you live... unless theyre spying on us. always spying...
and they said i was paranoid... im not, am i? spying!...SPYING!
um... ignore that

[Lyra Greenleaf]

does it matter if you're not British? isn't that just discrimination?

this is what I put, by the way.

It's a fantastic and wonderful fantasy book, ground breaking, original, spawning a thousand copies, modern and traditional, action packed with love, friendship, fighting- something for everyone! Just brilliant!

I tried to log on to the message boards and SOMEONE has apparantly called themselves LyraGreenleaf!

[ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[Eruanna]

It does say "Britain's Best Loved Book", but in the rules it states it can be any book as long as it has an English translation. Nothing about having to be British to vote though!
I've just voted....for LotR of course [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I wish I could remember what I put for my reasons......it sounded rather good, even if I say so myself! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Elotareth]

Ooh, can I vote even though I'm not British? I think I'll try...
**thinks about trying... decides maybe later***

[the guy who be short]

Arise! Arise! Wake, children of the 'Downs; Shades and Wights and Princes alike! Once again the quest to find Britains favourite book has arisen, and LotR has made it to the top 21! Vote now, and it shall surely prevail over all others!

GO HERE!

[The Saucepan Man]

Did anyone else see the program on BBC on Saturday night that went through the top 100 books and then had panelists discussing the 21 that had made it to the shortlist? The treatment of LotR by this group of so-called experts was appalling. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] There is a good report on it here at TORN, with which I thoroughly agree.

It will be intersting, though, to see where LotR ends up. I'm not holding out much hope for the top spot, but top 5 is a distinct possibility, possibly even top 3.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

I really hope so...I just voted.
I saw that on TV too, was a tad annoying, although I suppose I can see it from their totally unobssessed point of view. Man, they're weird.
And really, they oughtn't to have dissed the Harry Potter series, because, hyped up as they are, it is amazing, that young kids will read a book over 700 pages long without any pictures. Not that I am an HP fan in particular, it just annoyed me.
And I loved Birdsong, I just read it for the second time.
I love Wuthering Heights too, it is unlike any of the other books from the period which I have read (which would be very few...but oh well), because the characters are so strong and full of passion.
I've read Tess of the D'Urbevilles (such a sad ending!!!!) and Far from the Madding Crowd...they were ok, only extraordinarily subtle...and the sheep falling off the cliff had me in stitches!
Hmm, that was slightly off-topic.
Anyway...go vote!!!
Oh and I was going to say to Lyra, if an American were to submit an entry, then they had better do it with English spellings!

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I watched the Big Read on TV, and I wasn't very impressed. They dismissed a lot of books, showed random and irrelavent video clips and the discussions and information was genrally not very good or imformative. I don't think the panel's discussion of LotR was particularly good either. I think I heard someone say that it was 'rubbish', and it seemed to me that they dissed a lot of books without a given reason, sometimes when they hadn't even read them. I too agree with the TORN report.
What did you think about the Hobbit not making it to the top 21 because Tolkien already had one there? Surely if the public liked it enough to vote it there it should be there, regardless of how many other books by the author there are.

[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: Daisy Brambleburr ]

[Arwen1858]

I just voted! There are quite a few good books on their, but of course none of them as good as LotR. It will probably be a tough compatition, thought! Hopefully LotR will prevail, and come out number one!! Or in the top 5, at least.
Arwen

[Airerûthiel]

As an avid reader and a future novelist, I request to be allowed a rant against the Big Read. I'll apologise for getting carried away prior to writing because it's inevitable:

I totally agree with that report at TORN. But that programme was so anti-modern, anti-fantasy and anti-children's literature! I'd love to see the look on that panel's faces if something like The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe won (it's the closest I could get to filling all those categories). But it was the ageist comments that really got to me over all the others.

Whenever the alleged 'experts' were discussing the book, one woman in particular kept saying, "Read this book before you are 13 or 14" - it was always those years for some reason - "because after that it's rubbish" or words to that effect. Utter, utter (bleep) in my opinion. I was part of a group of 30 12 and 13-year-olds who were given Jane Eyre as a set text for English class, this being the age group recommended by this woman to have read it by. Only one person - yours truly - wanted to finish the book once we'd read all we were required to. Anyone in the education system will know you cannot put something like that in front of many teenagers because they simply will not read it properly - it's not something to be enjoyed, it's something to get through.

The comment about 'no more than one book per author' is good for some reasons - be honest, who really wants to watch four virtually identical documentaries on Harry Potter books? - but stupid for others. It's meant to be the top 21 that we voted for - not publishers, not writers, not BBC executives - us, the reading public of Great Britain (and of course the international voters).

And speaking of Harry Potter...Goblet of Fire to go through to the final 21?! What is the issue with these people? Just because it was the most recent at the time of the poll doesn't make it the best - that must be Prisoner of Azkaban - and if anything, it should be Philosopher's Stone, as that was the one that kicked the whole thing off.

Right *deep breath* I think that'll be all. Thank you and good night!

[Failivrin]

oh GOD that woman annoyed me! and so did linda smith. i mean, she only had opinions on the books she hadn't read. then we come to robert winston whom i admire immensely but people; HE IS A SCIENTIST. he is NOT a literary person and that was reflected in his comments.

i cannot BELIEVE that goblet made it into the top 21. IMO it is the worst of the harry potter series, azkaban being the best (and only original) one.

the lord of the rings had better win and if it doesn't then i do not trust the poll.

something to hearten us though; ladbrokes have LOTR 4/1 for the win [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Olorin_TLA]

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] That woman was so stupid. Her sole "contribution" to the show was to reveal her philosophy that ALL books CANNOT at any cost be read once you're 15+.
Every book.

She is an actual cretin... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Oh, and here's a quote to describe the attitude of the panel:

"Trolls are slow in the uptake, and mighty suspicious about anything new to them."

- The Hobbit


[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

...

Oh, you can vote once per wekk. Don't forget! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] (And Goblet of Fire rules.)

[ October 20, 2003: Message edited by: Olorin_TLA ]

[Failivrin]

i voted about 7 times o nthis connection and then it stopped me with some STUPID message about how you can only vote once per programme. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I never watched it but I can imagine that my favourite book was brutalised by the "experts". It seems very clear that the public will be dissauded from voting for The Rings, but with the films so popular just now, I think there's a good chance it could win.

I would also like to see a strong defense of the book which completely overrides the panel's criticisms.

[Essex]

I think we will get a more balanced view when ray mears presents his opinion on why lotr is the best book. it should be on bbc2 in the next few weeks.

re multiple voting. sorry for my opinion, but this will devalue the result of the survey for me. only vote once, doing more so is cheating and will not give a proper account. if lotr is not the most favourite book (which I think it WILL be) then so be it.....

ps Whenever I see that 'comdedien' who ridiculed lotr on the big read on the tv now I just swear and shout at her. She was on Have I got News for you the other night, and I turned the air blue with my thoughts on her throughout the programme. (I did like her comedy before her stupid comments on the big read show. you can tell she is one of the thousands of people who diss lotr even though they haven't read it!)

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

God, yeah, Essex. So many of my friends are exactly like her. 'It's too long!' 'Life is too short!'. My dad is normally the latter, but not on LOTR. He introduced me into it.
Azkaban was way the best HP book- the time-turner idea was amazing. And confusing. But Harry was confused too, so never mind.
But about that only one vote thing- I can always vote 5 times before it says I can only vote once a week. Which is weird.
In the Times it said the odds on LOTR winning were 3/1, because its fans were the most obsessed and would vote every week. We'd better keep up the reputation and get it to win! Although I think the HP lot will be a force to be reckoned with.

[the guy who be short]

LotR is first so far! But it is VITAL that we don't get lured into a false sense of security. Pride and Prejudice somehow got to second, but I don't think of it as a threat. HP on the other hand... Well, it's third and has an army of followers. VOTE NOW! We cannot lsoe to Hary Potter... I for one would be ridiculed to death at my school.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

My view is simple:

I The Big Read is intended to get people to read good books. I already read good books, and can describe them a little better than an assortment of soap stars and stand-up comedians. Also it will give people a useful resource to enable them to choose which of their books to place on the most prominent display, not to mention a list of books that 'normal' people may be assumed to have read. If you want that sort of thing, this will be great for you. Otherwise it'll be a curiosity at best.

II It doesn't matter whether or not Tolkien wins. Sad, but true. If he gets the top spot fairly it will confirm that he's very popular, which we knew already. It will do nothing to make The Lord of the Rings more acceptable in literary circles; in fact it will probably reinforce the view that we, Tolkien's fans, are obsessive, emotionally stunted and intellectually blinkered. To help you to understand why, consider how likely it is that Thomas Hardy's fans have been cheating to try and get Jude the Obscure into the top spot.

III This sort of thing is inherently inaccurate and basically pointless. One cannot quantify art, and therefore it must follow that one cannot rank works of art either. All this survey is trying to do is to establish which book is most people's favourite, so whether or not Tolkien gets even into the top six should be a matter of supreme indifference. It will change nothing. The big battle is for Tolkien's official acceptance as an author of classic literature, which can be won only through intelligent, well-informed and scholarly debate.

[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I recently purchased the Big Read 'book of books', and it's pretty good. In the introduction it has this to say about multiple voting:

With sophisticated measures in place to identify and discount any attempts at multiple voting we were able to ensure that the results were genuine.

So I'm not sure if it will make much different how many times you vote.

On the double page spread for LotR (for anyone who's interested) there is a big picture of Gandalf Ian McKellen) in Fangorn forest, a quote from Ray Mears:

Tolkien's epic isn't just a fabulous adventure. It's a tale that champions the values of long-lost ways of living and connects us to the very land that surrounds us.

There's a also a Tolkien biography, 'the story in a nutshell' and a small picture of the Bakshi poster, the current movie poster and other smaller captions and cover images.

If anyone wants to know something else about the LotR (or any other) part of this book, they only have to ask [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Daisy Brambleburr ]

[Failivrin]

Elentari: i have that article from the times: i'm treasuring it.

Essex: the same about linda smith. i used to like her a lot but now she just angers me. i would not have minded it if she had criticised constructively but saying 'it's rubbish' and giving no further thought was stupid.

you can usually vote about 7 times from each connection before it catches you. they count every vote you register until it says there has been an error and then you're not allowed to vote for another week.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think we will get a more balanced view when ray mears presents his opinion on why lotr is the best book.

I will be interested to watch this, although I am a bit miffed that we didn't get someone with a bit more clout. Still, at least we haven't got William Hague. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Poor Birdsong doesn't stand a chance with him advocating it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

re multiple voting. sorry for my opinion, but this will devalue the result of the survey for me.

That was my initial thought too, Essex. And it looks like some form of multiple voting is possible, whatever "sophisticated" means the BBC might have in place to stop it. But the survey may still have value. Multiple voting will take account of the impact that a book has had on its readers (since people will be more inclined to vote multiple times for books that have made a greater impression on them), as well as the number of people who rate it. And that, of course, can only favour LotR. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

She was on Have I got News for you the other night, and I turned the air blue with my thoughts on her throughout the programme.

Hehe, I thought much the same when I watched it. She is a good commedienne, mind. But perhaps she should stick to what she is good at rather than making disparaging comments about a book that she has never read.

This sort of thing is inherently inaccurate and basically pointless. One cannot quantify art, and therefore it must follow that one cannot rank works of art either. All this survey is trying to do is to establish which book is most people's favourite, so whether or not Tolkien gets even into the top six should be a matter of supreme indifference. It will change nothing. The big battle is for Tolkien's official acceptance as an author of classic literature, which can be won only through intelligent, well-informed and scholarly debate.

I'm not sure that I agree with you on this, Squatter. The vagaries of multiple voting aside, the poll will provide some measure of LotR's popularity. And a book's popularity is, in turn, surely some measure of its worth. After all, books are (generally) written to entertain. And the more people that a book entertains, the more popular it will be. I, for one, will be greatly chuffed if LotR makes the top spot (or even the top 3), since it will to some degree confirm its worth by reference to the reason for which it was written (ie to entertain). And it will place it squarely on a par (in these terms) with a number of books that are recognised as classics of literature.

And I have to say that, whether or not it is accepted as such by academics is a matter of supreme indifference to me. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

A small point perhaps, but why does it list the book as "Lord of the Rings"? I think we're missing a "The" somewhere...

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Good point, Eomer. There should be a 'The'.

I'm not sure that I agree with you on this, Squatter. The vagaries of multiple voting aside, the poll will provide some measure of LotR's popularity. And a book's popularity is, in turn, surely some measure of its worth. After all, books are (generally) written to entertain. And the more people that a book entertains, the more popular it will be. I, for one, will be greatly chuffed if LotR makes the top spot (or even the top 3), since it will to some degree confirm its worth by reference to the reason for which it was written (ie to entertain). And it will place it squarely on a par (in these terms) with a number of books that are recognised as classics of literature.

And I have to say that, whether or not it is accepted as such by academics is a matter of supreme indifference to me.

Okey doke, Saucy. I think I will agree with you just for the sake of a happy life. I can also use this as a weapon in case we do win and the HP fans try to wreak revenge by taking Squatter's POV. (Sorry, Squatter...I do kind of agree with what you're saying, but I would like to survive too... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) Luckily, we have few HP fans in my school. Just the years 7 and (a few from) 8. Thank goodness for that. The rest are more interested in TV programs, movie stars like OB, etc. (I go to a girls' school).

[Daisy Brambleburr]

Does anyone know when LotR is going to be given it's half an hour time slot? This saturday it's the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy, to kill a mocking bird and something else. Can't wait for it to be our turn!

And some bookmakers have stopped taking bets on LotR now. I guess it must be very far ahead!

[The Saucepan Man]

And some bookmakers have stopped taking bets on LotR now. I guess it must be very far ahead!

Indeed. I think that Ladbrokes have stopped taking bets now, and maybe a few others. And, since bookmakers inevitably know what they are talking about in these matters, it looks like LotR is going to romp home. Which I personally find very encouraging. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Olorin_TLA]

Now we just see if LotR's Z-list celebrity (like the others) makes an ebarresment of himself...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

On a side note (its not worth starting a new thread) what are your other favourites on the list? For me its 1984 and the Hitchhikers Guide. Both marvellous reads, but nowhere close to The Lord of the Rings.

And yes, its true. Bookmakers are our betters and know no falsity. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Ok, I have voted so many times I can't see the top 21! But from the ones I remember I like Great Expectations (did it in year 10), Pride and Prejudice (year 9, and read it before I saw it [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] ), Birdsong...um...

From the rest of the list I like Tess of the D'Urbevilles, Far from the Madding Crowd, I Capture the Castle, A Tale of Two Cities...Animal Farm was ok, but I'm not really into politics...Brave New World was frankly disturbing and has to be one of the most depressing books I've ever read...!

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I love the Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy, I'm reading it now and I've just started 'Mostly Harmless'. I also like Animal Farm, The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe (but it's not my favorite CS Lewis book) and Winnie the Pooh.

A quick question: do you think there are any hidden reasons that LotR is ahead (other than it being an utterly fantabulous book). Have you voted, and how many times? Do you think that all LotR fans will vote more than once, and if the movies were not out would it be doing as well?

[Failivrin]

i also really love gone with teh wind, but i think it's losing...

ian mckellen is on have i got news for you tonight *eek*!

i think LOTR is ahead because it is a great book. obviously the number of votes may be different, but let's not forget that it won waterstone's book of the century before FOTR came out...

[The Saucepan Man]

what are your other favourites on the list

Rather embarassingly, I have only read 7 on the list (including LotR). Second place, for me, would have to go to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which was pure comic genius, as with all Douglas Adams' writings (he is sadly missed). Other than that, I really liked Wuthering Heights, which I read for my 'A' level exams, and which was one of only two set texts which I read twice (the other was Farewell to Arms, but Hemmingway astoundingly didn't even feature in the top 100). And, of course, 1984, which I did for 'O' level (although I preferred Animal Farm).

Wind in the Willows has a special place in my affections, as does Winnie the Pooh, but I would describe neither as being in my top 21 books. One of Philip Pullman's books is (courtesy of my Tolkien fan sister-in-law) sitting on my bedside table, ready to read, but I haven't got round to it yet.

Bottom of my list would be Great Expectations, but I never got on with Dickens. I read the abridged version for a school essay on it (and still got an A [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ).

Books that should be there in my view: The Magus by John Fowles, an incredible psychological exploration, Frank Herbert's Dune and Umberto Eco's Foucald's Pendulum. I am sure that there are others, but I can't think of them for now.

Brave New World was frankly disturbing and has to be one of the most depressing books I've ever read...!

Ah yes, that should be there. A very good book indeed. Disturbing, yes, but surely very relevant to modern society - perhaps one of the biggest issues facing us today.

are any hidden reasons that LotR is ahead

Well, I think that the films have something to do with it, But not as much as critics would have us believe. The films have got people into the books, certainly, and that is a wonderful thing. But I don't believe that people who have enjoyed the films but can't get on with the book will vote for it. And it is one of those books that fans will vote for again and again (as I have), but that only confirms how strongly admirers of the books feel about it. Ultimately, though, I think that it comes down to the fact that it is, however much those po-faced critics might rail against it, a very popular book.

Have you voted, and how many times?

Yes. Every time I go to the "Big Read" site. Which is fine by me, since I expect fans of the other books to do the same. If they don't, then clearly it doesn't mean as much to them.

ian mckellen is on have i got news for you tonight

That program was so funny. Ross Noble is an exceptional comedian, and his impression of Gandalf trying to hide the existence of Gnomes in Middle-earth was excrutiatingly funny. I was in stiches over the thought of Garden Gnomes mounted on Squirrels fighting Orcs. I thought that Ian held his own very well. He certainly put that pipsqueak Ian Hislop in his place. "Touche!", I thought as he remarked "But you were at Cambridge, weren't you?" in response to Hislop's sad quip about his sexuality.

But LotR being firmly in first place and seemingly unshakeable at this stage of the voting? I would never have thought it. What a great result. I only hope that complacency doesn't knock it off the top spot.

Edit: Is it just me, or is Ross Noble burrahobbit? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well Saucepan Man, I'm afraid to say that the shame is all my mine, for I have only read a measly FOUR books in the top 21. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Catcher in the Rye, 1984, and Hitchiker's guide are the others. I do think that Brave New World deserves a place, however, and where on earth was Mark Twain? Huck Finn HAS to be there, it just has to be! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Also, I saw Have I Got News For You with Ian McKellan on it and I do think it was one of the funniest episodes for a very long time (entirely down to the two guests and the certifiably insane Paul Merton).

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

I couldn't get on with Huck Finn. I think I might have tried it too young...but I did manage Great Expectations in year 6!!!

How could I forget Wuthering Heights? I love that book!!!! Heathcliff's mood always reminded me of Túrin for some reason...but hey.

I really wanna see Have I Got News For You, but it's on late and I'm getting up early tomorrow...well not really early...does 7.15 count as early? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Well anyhow, it's the biggest lie-in I get. How sad...oh well.

About easter eggs on the EE versions. Am I the only one who's never been able to access them????

[Olorin_TLA]

7.15 counts as reaaaaly early for a weekend.

When do they repeat Have I got news, btw? (I'm guessing the comedian's the rpesenter this week, not a guest?)

[Daisy Brambleburr]

Have I Got News for You was on at 10.30 last night. It was a very funny episode, I cracked up when they were talking about garden gnomes being able to beat the orcs in a fight. Paul Merton is hilarious.

They're doing the Lord of the Rings next Saturday at 9! So make sure that you're in. I will be watching.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Really? Excellent! About time too... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I wonder how much that explorer person will cock it up. When they did that thing introducing the top 21, I couldn't really relate to a word he was saying. But hey. We'll see what he says...

I saw the thing!! I didn't understand the whole 'sexual tension' thing, you know about cruising along and going to Cambridge...anyone care to PM me? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Olorin_TLA]

Thnk you, Sky!!! *Grumble grumble...didn't show up when I looked yesterday in TV Guide of SKy...grumble grumble...ROARRRR!!!*

[Failivrin]

i thought that episode was one of the funniest ever (and i have watched since i was about 13). kelley was great. jimmy carr was pretty boring (shame because he can be funny) but ross noble of course was great and so were merton and hislop. kudos to mckellen for all that stuff about michael howerd!