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View Poll Results: Who or What is Tom Bombadil | |||
A nature spirit? | 14 | 29.17% | |
The spirit of Middle-earth itself? | 11 | 22.92% | |
A Maiar? | 5 | 10.42% | |
A Vala? | 3 | 6.25% | |
An Elf? | 0 | 0% | |
A Dwarf? | 1 | 2.08% | |
An immortal Man? | 0 | 0% | |
The reader? | 1 | 2.08% | |
Eru? | 0 | 0% | |
I'll tell you in my post! | 13 | 27.08% | |
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll |
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01-11-2006, 02:48 PM | #41 | |
Messenger of Hope
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I don't know. This question's always boggled me. Will maybe read the threads Fordim posted and then vote. . . -- Folwren
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01-18-2006, 06:09 PM | #42 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
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Iarwain Ben-adar
The name Tom Bombadil was the name of a childs doll, and I believe to be insignificant. I believe the aspect of Bombadil was something within Tolkien himself. The love of all things growing, and the joy of the world itself. If ever a character within a book speaks for the author then Bombadil is Tolkien. The name Iarwain Ben-adar could also relate to Tolkien, for he was also The Oldest without Father, in the earthly way. Bombadil could only say in an earthly way that he had no father, for everything that is, comes from Eru, so spiritually he had a father, unless he was Eru.
I think therefore I am He lives therefore he is. Last edited by narfforc; 01-20-2006 at 01:26 PM. |
01-23-2006, 12:24 AM | #43 |
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Iarwain Ben-adar from Tolkien's æsthetics
Greetings.
What I personally see in Iarwain Ben-adar is the supremacy of Art over the rest of the (tainted) world, during the time of the War of the Ring. Tom Bombadil's enigmatic yet merry nature is reflected upon the true Artist who is never corrupted by the materialistic progress of the malignant Science (as shown in The Fellowship of the Ring when Tom slips the One Ring on his finger). His mystery was never solved because of what Tolkien - God bless his soul - believed: that the source of majestic Art is not found in this world. Last edited by Mythopoeia; 01-28-2006 at 01:02 AM. |
01-23-2006, 04:11 PM | #44 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I beleive that Tom Bombadil, like Tolkien mentioned himself is the enigma. He is more of a representation than a literary character, and his meeting with Frodo is more of symbolism than an addition to the plot.
When Tom appears as untempted by the Ring, can see Frodo while he wears the Ring, and so they have no problem giving the Ring to each other, it is like this: Although you may think you know something well, (like for example that the Ring is evil), there is always something that is undiscovered in the world. Treebeard and Tom both say they are both the oldest being, there dosnt have to be contridiction. Quote:
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I came up with this theor on my own, I haven't read any Tom Bombadil essays It just 'came to me' while reading through E of A's entry of Iarwin Ben-adar. __________________________________________________ _____________ __________________________________________________ _____________ Also, in a more specific example, you can view The Ring and Bombadil as a symbol: If Sauron had complete domination (with his Ring of course) over Middle-Earth, and stood unopposed, he could still not make the trees or the earth or the rocks evil. They would not be affected by his rule. And so while the Ring may be the greatest concentration of power, it could not hold power over Bombadil, who seems to be the personification of nature itself. And althogh at the C of E, it was said pertaining to Bombadil as the Ring-Keeper(noy an exact quote) Quote:
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So while Mordor is a bleack, ashen land, I would bet that if Frodo and Sam had traveled nearer to the Barad-dur, Sauron would not make dirt fly up in their eyes. Now he would (could) though, but it would be more like using his powers to release energy in a way (kinda like the Halos) that would act as wind, blowing the dirt. He would not beable to control the dirt telepathically or anything though. I think the 'Powers' (not limited to the title of the Valar) would only beable to have influence over animate/organic beings. (hroa and fea i suppose). And since Tom Bombadil is 'Master,' but not Master of the Lands, he could not use nature as a weapon. So Tom would have indeed been a bad choice to give the Ring to. ________ FORD SCORPIO Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 10:46 PM. |
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02-17-2006, 07:41 AM | #45 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dancing in rain
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Tom has always been a mystery to me, and I suppose Tolkien meant him to be one. I've also been wondering who really is the oldest of all beings of Middle-Earth. Celeborn refers to Treebeard as the eldest, and Tom says he was around before trees even existed ( sorry I don't have the book in English so I can't quote the sentence...). So? If Tom was there before trees existed, I think Treebeard couldn't have lived by then. But did Celeborn make a mistake or had he just forgotten about Bombadil, or did he know about Tom at all?
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02-17-2006, 10:51 AM | #46 | |||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
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Treebeard is only called the eldest among Ents:
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02-17-2006, 04:37 PM | #47 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The reason why i think that is because: There was obviously a 'first' elf. So that title automatically goes to them. Then Tom calls himself Eldest, and says he was before all elves. So Tom gets a share too. Now to be before elves, he would have to be an Ainu (which i dont beleive) but using Ainu in this context meaning created of the thought of Illuvatar or out of the Music. Pointbeing, he was before Melko returned and before the Marring. So there really is nothing to take away Tom's claim to the title, unless he is lying, which even putting his character aside, we can prove that is false. Gandalf is an Ainu, so he would know whether Tom was before elves or acorn or anything he said because he was around before Arda, and would have said that was false if Tom was really lying. So, going back to my origanal theory and post, its ok to have two 'Eldest,' because one is Eldest(of all the speakers minus Ainu) and Tom was still Eldest(metephorically) Also, if treebeard was the Eldest (technically, wouldnt he be? the Ents were before the Elves wernt they, but they couldnt speak yet?), Celeborn would have recognized my theory, because as one of the Wise, he would have known well of Bombadil, so he would have known he was not incorrect in calling Treebeard Eldest. ________ Chrysler Nassau History Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:03 PM. |
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02-17-2006, 04:46 PM | #48 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
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02-17-2006, 05:08 PM | #49 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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________ OG KUSH PICTURES Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:03 PM. |
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02-20-2006, 04:31 AM | #50 |
Spectre of Decay
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The fruits of some weekend reading
In the early drafts of LotR, Tom calls himself 'Aborigine', not 'Eldest'. As Christopher Tolkien observes in his footnotes, the likely times for Tom to come into being are before the flight of Melkor and Ungoliant or, more likely, during the time in which Melkor was banished in the Void. Since Tom remembers the dark beneath the stars when it was fearless, Varda's star-kindling must have taken place before his memory begins, and therefore he was not alive when the Dark Lord originally entered Arda, first of all the Valar. That basically blows all of the 'Tom is an aspect of Eru', 'Tom is the spirit of Middle-earth' and 'Tom is a forgotten Maia' theories I've seen out of the water and leaves us with a character who is an anomaly. He's not exactly an Elf, certainly not a Dwarf, and while he could be a Man (the most likely explanation in my opinion), his great longevity is difficult to explain. In his letters, Tolkien points out that Middle-earth is an imperfectly conceived universe, and all but tells his correspondant that Bombadil can't be made to fit at all.
Personally Bombadil strikes me as Adamic, which might explain his long life. We might, I suppose, take him to be an image of unfallen Man, blessed with length of years and a disdain for worldly concerns, but even that would take some explaining, since he was in the lands about the Shire before the Elves first passed through. Tolkien was probably right: philosophizing does not improve him. My instinct is to accept the character as a mystery and mark up all inconsistencies with the main mythology to the vagueries of the branching acquisitive theme. After all, Tom was conceived long before he was made a part of Middle-earth, and it's perhaps inevitable that some of the joins should still show.
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Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 02-20-2006 at 08:19 AM. Reason: Aberrant occurrence of 'Tolkien' for 'Tom' corrected |
02-20-2006, 07:29 AM | #51 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Squatter wrote:
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02-20-2006, 09:32 AM | #52 | |
Spectre of Decay
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I am rebutted
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As for the kindling of the stars, my knowledge of the Silmarillion material never was that amazing; perhaps it's time that I read it again. My main point remains the same: Tom Bombadil is none of the above: he's a character who had nothing to do with Middle-earth at the outset, and who therefore was never assigned a satisfactory place in that reality. To look for one seems to be to forget that Tolkien's Middle-earth is invented, and that he freely admitted its imperfection. My reaction to some of the more common Tolkien imponderables has always been that they tend to be totally disproportionate, concentrating on really quite unimportant details of the story. Tom Bombadil's origins are less boring than Legolas' hair or Balrog wings, but there's still no answer, and surely his role in the narrative is clear enough. Does it really matter that we can't fit him neatly into Tolkien's world? I also wanted to point out the opinion of Christopher Tolkien, who is quite definite about the two alternatives I outlined in my previous post. My own view is very nearly 'who cares?', but when I turned up that information in HoME VI I remembered this and other discussions.
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Man kenuva métim' andúne? |
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02-20-2006, 11:04 AM | #53 | |||
Eagle of the Star
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02-20-2006, 12:25 PM | #54 | |
Haunting Spirit
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03-05-2006, 08:11 PM | #55 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Well, of course he had to develop Tom. Frodo and Co. couldnt have met Mr Enigma, for then he couldnt have development of all. So while Tolkien created him as an enigma, I believe that he developed his character to be an enigma, also. So he is Enigma-twofold, in his literary concept, and actual characterzation. There can be no rebuke against his literary standard.
________ HONDA GL500 Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:21 PM. |
03-06-2006, 03:11 AM | #56 |
Illustrious Ulair
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The most interesting thing about Tom is that even those who dislike him don't 'disbelieve' in him. For such readers he's like a real person, but one who gets on their nerves, so they avoid him. One thing they can't deny is that, as in Goldberry's words: 'He is.'
Of course, we're all 'enigmas' - most of us even to ourselves. We can no more explain the 'madness' of TB than we can explain our own eccentricities. We are all 'silly' at times, & maybe we could divide the human race into those who can accept (even enjoy) their own silliness, those who deny it, & those attempt to explain it away, or provide some kind of 'psychological' explanation. I suspect that the second group (the deniers of their own silliness) turn away from TB in contempt, the third group (the 'explainers) are the ones who construct elaborate 'theories' about TB (he's a Maiar, he's Eru, he's Tolkien himself, etc, etc). The first group, though, are the ones who can just accept him & follow his mad song through the Old Forest to his house, step over the threshold, find a golden light all about them and the table all laden with yellow cream, honeycomb, and white bread and butter.... As Chesterton put it 'The true object of all human life is play. Earth is a task garden; Heaven is a playground.' |
03-20-2006, 07:33 AM | #57 |
Auspicious Wraith
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For anyone who hasn't seen this, Tom is actually The Witch-King of Angmar.
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03-20-2006, 11:09 AM | #58 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The River-womans Daughter.
I always find it fascinating when the question of Bombadil comes up, that no-one asks who Goldberry is, or more precise her mother The River-woman. All three of these characters are enigmatic, when, where and who are words that are used if mentioning their names. The River-woman was supposed to live in a deep pool of The Withywindle. Now I know of no other being than one of the spirits (Ainur), which lives under water, could Goldberry be the daughter of Uinen?. If The River-woman was human, then there is a good chance Goldberry would also be. This would mean Goldberry being a wife for a fleeting moment. Could The River-woman be Elven, for Goldberry is described as a young elf-queen. I think all three are spirits, let me quote from The Silmarillion:
With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servents and helpers. Their number is not known to the Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Iluvatar; for though it is otherwise in Aman, in Middle-earth the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men. Seldom does not mean never, and Bombadil came first anyway, and alone. Other than the Five Istari which are named, there were others who came with them which may have also been Maiar, another thing the Elves knew not the number of. The Valaraukar/Balrogs (Gothmog) and Ungoliant are named as Maiar. I believe Bombadil was one of the Ainur, of what degree I know not, yet he is called the Master by Goldberry. Does Master in this sense mean in control, if so of what. Could Eru have sent Iarwain Ben-adar to guard the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable at the very creation of Ea?. Does not the words Ea, the World that Is not also reflect Goldberry's He Is answer to the hobbits, when asked who Tom Bombadil was. This could also answer the question of why Tom was there before Melkor, when the world as such was still sleeping. Gandalf feared that Tom would fall Last as he was the First, why was he the first. The riddle of who Bombadil is, can only be answered by why he is.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 04-10-2006 at 09:25 AM. |
03-20-2006, 05:03 PM | #59 | ||
A Northern Soul
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Here's what was said, by Bethberry: Quote:
Even if Goldberry's nature was as unexplained as Tom, I don't think she would have attracted the amount of speculation Tom has. The point with Tom is not that he is male, but that his physical acts (and subsequent conclusions drawn about his mentality) show that he is quite an oddity - he skips about through the woods carelessly, and is completely unmoved by the Ring? He's not just an unexplained character. He's an unexplained character that leaps out and thumps the reader in the eyeball.
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03-20-2006, 05:57 PM | #60 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Maybe instead of saying no-one I should had said almost no-one. The percentage of Tom watchers to those of Goldberry is now about 99%, unless I missed anymore, however thanks for pointing out one of the few. Of course I am talking over a long period of time since the books were first published, Tom does get more attention than Goldberry and her mother. There is a fascination with people trying to figure out who or what he is, and completely forgetting the other two.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 03-20-2006 at 06:07 PM. |
03-20-2006, 06:42 PM | #61 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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Well, it appears such people are in good company, for, after all, Gandalf appears to forget about Goldberry when he says at the end: Quote:
hmm. Maybe I should go back to my fey avatar which resembles the images on the cover of Tales from the Perilous Realm. hmm.
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04-10-2006, 12:17 AM | #62 |
Registered User
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I've long ago decided for myself that Tom Bombadil is the very spirit of Arda--Arda in a physical form that can walk, talk, and be like a Kid of Eru in the sense that he's almost looking like them.
"Eldest, that's what I am ... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn ... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside." |
04-10-2006, 09:35 AM | #63 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 04-10-2006 at 12:02 PM. |
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04-10-2006, 11:28 AM | #64 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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I'm reminded of Legolas' words (The Ring goes South): Quote:
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04-10-2006, 11:58 AM | #65 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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and your quoting brings this one to mind, Davem:
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"...longer than Sauron" is significant, almost Bombadillian. perhaps there are just as many good and friendly things in the world as well Last edited by drigel; 04-10-2006 at 12:15 PM. Reason: pimf |
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04-10-2006, 01:03 PM | #66 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Just asking...
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04-10-2006, 01:45 PM | #67 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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As has been noted before they do seem to be 'reflections' of Celeborn & Galadriel (who almost seem to be 'higher harmonics' of them). |
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04-10-2006, 03:29 PM | #68 |
Haunting Spirit
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Tolkien has said in Letters that Bombadil represents "something that was otherwise left out..." of the Lord of the Rings. I am inclined to read that statement along with all descriptions and comments about Tom in the following light:
Tolkien was attempting to write a "mythology" in all of his works. Not just a mythology for England, but a mythology and a set of stories that would look older and more complete than any other that had previously existed. He was doing this in an attempt to give a background for many myths and legends that we have currently or have had throughout time that share many elements (such as the Volsung Saga sharing similar elements with Beowulf, Nibelungenlied, the Poetic Elder and Edda, Atlantis, ect, ect, ect...)...as can be seen from his ideas concerning the fact that he was the translator and that all of these tales had to have come from specific sources (Bilbo's Red Book of Westmarch, Aelfwine/Eriol traveling to Erressea, ect), Tolkien was very concerned with giving "legitimacy" to his stories in that they could be percieved as "ancient" tales or stories which eventually were interpreted over the years as those tales that we currently interprent as legends and mythologies spread across Europe... ...but combined with this, Tolkien also had a love of languages...specifically Gothic and Welsh (Sindarian) and Finnish (Quenya)...but he also believed in the concept of an Ur Language, or a language above all languages...philologists, for years, have been attempting to trace back languages and make edcuated gueses concerning the earliest languages and how we can see similarities in many languages spread throughout the entire globe (similar in fashion to how we see similarities in legends spread throughout the globe)...however, an Ur language is the idea of a language that not only predates all other languages but also is a language that is that of God himself...as such, the Ur language when spoken would represent commands or actions more so than descriptions...for examples...saying the real and original word for"chair" in the Ur language would not only necessarily communicate to all others the exact thought of what a chair is just by the expression of that word, but may also cause such an object to come into being... WHERE AM I GOING WITH THIS? 1) Look at Tom's sing-song type language...his words become commands...Old Man Willow lets the hobbits go, and so does the Barrow-Wight...Tom's expressions are like commands in a similar fashion to the idea that the Ur language would not only convey thought but would also cause things to come into being (or in Tom's case, do his bidding)...HOWEVER, Tolkien, also in his religious beliefs, would consider it blasphemy to imbody God in such a being as Tom Bombadil (or any other character for that matter)...yet, he would probably agree that the Ur language could only be spoken by God himself (save many for Angels, for which there is some conjecture still abounding)...therefore, how can Bomdabil speak an Ur language and not be God? 2) Now look to the first part of my post, the mythologies section...in all of these intertwining stories there are always things that stand out as pure mysteries to translators or interpretors...they just have no clue what they are or how they got into the story...Tom can be considered this...an Enigma? YES, but much more...Tom is an enigma because no tale of history or legendarium can be complete...its humanly impossible to be infallible...there will always be gaps and holes that can't be filled or explained even by the best of explanations...Tom is this hole, this gap, this thing unexplained...he represents "things otherwise left out"...meaning that Tolkien's world without Tom is nearly perfect...but with Tom, there is a big gaping mystery that no one can officially solve...Tom exists to give a realistic tone to the idea that one set of stories can fully resolve all mysteries that have existed in legends for the history of the world...one human story can't explain this...Tom shows us that...Tom shows us that human are fallible (including Tolkien) and therefore no tale written by humans is complete and perfect...
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04-10-2006, 04:10 PM | #69 |
Illustrious Ulair
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But if Tom represents or symbolises something that would otherwise be left out, what does that make him - what is he?. Goldberry simply says 'He is', & then goes on to qualify that statement (or is she actually 'qualifying' it - maybe she's actually making another, different, statement about him) by saying 'He is as you see him.' It seems that she is saying He is what he appears to be - he doesn't wear a 'mask'.
Yet from Tom's statements about himself it seems he is far more than he appears to be. Unless all Tom's statements about himself are attempts to communicate what should be apparent in his very 'appearance' but aren't. Its obvious that Tolkien knew exactly who & what Tom was but refused to say. One wonders why. He is like a window onto a great Mystery - the mystery of Being. Contemplating Tom is a bit like contemplating infinity. |
04-10-2006, 05:06 PM | #70 |
Wight
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One thing that strikes me as a bit odd about Tom is that his "power" seems limited to The Old Wood. It would seem that is he were indeed "the spirit of Middle-earth" or some such, that his presence and affect would be a bit more wide-ranging...
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www.scottchristiancarr.com They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes. |
04-10-2006, 05:50 PM | #71 | ||
Haunting Spirit
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Additionally, if Tom MUST be catagorized, I deem him to be an enigma, purposefully one who doesn't fit with story. He doesn't represent an entity that can be defined by the terms of Middle Earth...also given the fact that he wears big Yellow boots (which in my mind look like giant rubber rain boots), Tom I believe is not meant to be understood..."He is" a mystery, on purpose with no equivocations... EDIT: Quote:
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." Last edited by Thalion; 04-10-2006 at 05:53 PM. |
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