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02-03-2006, 05:24 PM | #201 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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02-03-2006, 05:31 PM | #202 |
A Mere Boggart
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I think that Men are able to 'reach their potential' without the Elves - as shown in Men like Faramir - he may look fondly on his Numenorean heritage but he is living in Gondor, a long way from the Elves. The only Man we see who has had extensive dealings with Elves, and with Lorien, is Aragorn. In this respect I can see that he must have received a great deal of learning and guidance from the Elves, but again, it must from Rivendell that he gains the greater influence. Lorien's isolation from the world of Men has resulted in it being viewed with great suspicion by Men, so if the Elves were meant to help Men achieve their potential then those in Lorien have failed, surely?
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02-03-2006, 07:59 PM | #203 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalė
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Isn't it also in a way, that we have two traditions present at the same time, at least in the west. The one would say, that the mankind has fallen from paradise and continues to fall. Everything that is, is less than what was. The second would say, that we, as a mankind, are climbing the ladders of enlightenment and evolution, to the future, that will be all the better for everyone?
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The elves of Middle Earth need protection, yes. But why are they entangled with such "technological" devices as rings? Isn't this just a story of a great fall, when even the (once fallen?) elves had to cling with artifical things to maintain even a part of what they had been? The times', they are a changing? So decay everywhere? Clinging on to the first story. Tolkien's story of it? Tolkien's vision of art might be a subject to another discussion. He surely was a child of his time (as we too are, of course). But some basic, conceptual things could be opened from the vantage point of history...
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02-04-2006, 09:24 AM | #204 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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I was simply trying a bit of applicability, extrapolating the logic suggested here about Galadriel to two items, LotR itself and the general ethos of readers who post here at the Downs. Is Galadriel a model for the average Downs reader? I merely ask. Do we have multiple images of the reader in LotR? Are the hobbits one kind of reader and the elves another and do readers find themselves reading the text the way their favoured character reads the events? Do some readers identify closely with the translator conceit that they have distance from these other modes? But this is to digress.... The logic developed here concerning Galadriel sought in the text itself to find a way to consider her character and behaviour, rather than impose an 'outside' criterion from the primary world--and that is in the finest tradition of discussion here at the Downs--to tweak out every little inconsistency or unexplained point in the Legendarium. You add a couple more examples that could be examined using the same approach. Treebeard and the Ents are likely candidates, of course, but even more intriguing is your point about Rohan. (You are getting into the mead hall business, aren't you! Splendid!) What is the role of nostalgia in the Rohirric outlook, that is, the characters? Or are you saying that Tolkien himself created a nostalgic, revisionary history for The Mark? I see that davme continues his great desire to find aspects of the author's psychology in the text. Intriguing this. Quote:
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02-05-2006, 07:06 AM | #205 | ||||
Itinerant Songster
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Wow! Away for almost two days and look what happens!
I'll be glad when Rowlings' series is complete, so we have the whole thing to look at and can discuss the thing knowing what she's really driving toward. For now, we're still in the dark. That seems to be one difference between her and Tolkien: we know by the end of Chapter 2 what the big themes are in LotR; after five books of Harry, we're still not sure what Rowlings' big themes really are. Quote:
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Tolkien, however, did indeed write a nostalgic revisionary feigned history for "The Mark". (For those of you who might feel as if you're a little 'outside' this particular aspect of the conversation, Bethberry and I are referring to the West Midlands, that part of England with which Tolkien so closely identified himself; this land was known historically as Anglo-Saxon Mercia, which just happens to be the Latinate form of "The Mark".) I know he says so himself ... somewhere. But what does this say to us, beyond the fact that Tolkien wrote about what he loved? |
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02-05-2006, 08:01 AM | #206 | |
A Mere Boggart
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I think as well that there is another difference between the Rohirrim and the 'real' Anglo-Saxons. The Rohirrim are on the cusp of developing a written literature of their own, but they are still in the oral stage; the Anglo-Saxons had a period of relative stability in which to develop a rich culture in England - this was then cut off as it was flowering.
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02-05-2006, 09:26 AM | #207 | |||||||
Eagle of the Star
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Ok, some more on the issue of the rings (letter #181):
"The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure.But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart." Quote:
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"Magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives" Quote:
"The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed" Moreover, Tolkien states that, prior to the One Ring, Sauron ruled over _all_ Men who didn't have contact with the elves. Quote:
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02-05-2006, 09:49 AM | #208 | ||
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02-05-2006, 10:40 AM | #209 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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02-05-2006, 06:17 PM | #210 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalė
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And if we interpret Tolkien being against all technological views' of the world, then also Galadriel is "damned". She also represents the age of the fallen, those who try to yield powers that make themselves slaves at the same time. Holding Lorien blossoming, is against the turn of the tide. To try to reserve it, is a "blasbhemy", not yielding to the "natural" shape of events' unfolding. So she must wane. (She might have fought back, with her ring - or even with the One Ring - but in the end, she would have lost the battle). And there is heroism in her decline! She is the last to willfully deny technological might and freely wane herself out of power. So one of the elders', true kin to generations' that have passed before her. (Well, we could discuss Boromir or Faramir in here, but I think, they haven't the symbolical value of Galadriels' denial) These "people" entangled themselves with the fortunes' of the ring. They beated the One Ring, just to build up their own society, based on principles' that the ring could vote for...?
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02-06-2006, 03:41 AM | #211 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Of course, we have to be careful not to lay all the 'sin' at Galadriel's door. Tolkien states that this is an Elvish failing, not simply a 'Galadrien' one. Her ambition was higher than her compatriots, so she became greater, but consequently her 'sin' was greater. Its interesting that she 'passes' the test & is allowed to return into the West not because of her efforts in the battle against Sauron, not because of her struggles & sacrifices in the war, but because in the end she repents & chooses humility. It is only when she is prepared to 'diminish' (ie to let go of her dreams of power & become simply herself once more) that she is allowed to go home.
This is in sharp contrast to Frodo for whom there is 'no real going back'. The Shire will not be the same for him because he is not the same Hobbit he was. Galadriel can let go of everything she had been & return to her original state - Frodo cannot. Why? Perhaps because the persona Galadriel had created for herself was, in the end, a false one, while for Frodo the changes that happened to him were not self imposed falsehoods but were a true transformation. The Galadriel we meet in LotR is not the true Galadriel - only after the offer & rejection of the Ring do we see the real Elf-Woman : Quote:
In this passage we see first of all the false persona: 'She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful.' Then we see the real woman:'a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.. Galadriel changes herself, effectivly makes herself into a work of Art (yet can we call it 'Art' in the Tolkienien sense when it is achieved through magic, the powers of Elessar & Elven Ring? Frodo, on the other hand, is transformed through his experiences. Galadriel can go home merely by letting go of the false persona she has built up, Frodo cannot go home because he has actually become a different person. Galadriel has been playing a game with power, she is like a child playing at grown-ups (this is true for all the good she achieves). In the end she 'merely' has to put away her toys (much though she may have loved those toys, much though she may have achieved with them). Frodo hasn't been playing at all. In the end, though, it is Frodo who achieves the great victory, not Galadriel. So, it is Frodo who loses all not Galadriel. Yet both have learned a lesson & 'grown' (ironically, the consequence of Galadriel's 'growth is to become 'shrunken' - though actually she only 'shrinks' to her true 'size'. Frodo actually 'grows' morally & spiritually). Galadriel comes to the realisation that she is too 'small' for her fantasy, Frodo that he is too 'big' for his old reality. Galadriel goes home, Frodo goes into exile. I don't know who gets the better of the deal: We can't say that in her return to the Undying Lands Galadriel is being rewarded - she's only going back to what she had before. Frodo, on the other hand, is said to be being 'rewarded' by being allowed to pass into the West. Yet we have to ask whether the 'reward' is worth the suffering he had to go through - we're never actually told whether he felt it was all worth it: he merely tells Sam that sometimes it must be so - that someone has to lose the things they love so that others may keep them. He cannot just let his hand fall, laugh, & become a simple Hobbit again. Of course, she, at the test, was able to reject the Ring. He was not. |
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02-06-2006, 08:32 AM | #212 | |||
Cryptic Aura
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The earliest known collection is in The Exeter Book, some of which are in Latin. The Latin ones are different from the Old English ones, which some scholars have called "literary games". W. P. Ker called them "imaginative thought." Here's an online paper describing Old English riddles and here are some online translations. Interesting that Tolkien gives central importance to riddling not to the Rohirrim, but to the hobbits--or at least Gollem and Bilbo. Also interesting that riddles are absent from Beowulf. I can't recall that The Battle of Maldon has any, but it's been some time since I read it. Maybe our resident Old English scholars--Squatter and Fordim-- can suggest why-- if indeed it is the case--riddles are absent from the heroic literature. As for Tolkien's love of the culture which, as Lal says, "was cut off in its flowering"--and to relate this to the question of nostalgia--I know of at least one Old English scholar who used to hand out a chronology which ended with this: Quote:
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02-06-2006, 08:41 AM | #213 | |||
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02-06-2006, 11:51 AM | #214 | |||||
Eagle of the Star
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02-06-2006, 12:26 PM | #215 | ||
Spectre of Decay
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Anthology of Anglo-Saxon interest
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Perhaps the closest episode to the contest in The Hobbit that I've seen is Alcuin's Disputatio Pippini cum Albino scholastico. This is a Latin work, written at the court of Charlemagne, but its author was a Northumbrian with close ties to the northern English church. Then again, in this third piece, there is no stake. The contest is a light-hearted game between two learned men, scholar and patron, and lacks the confrontational aspects of the two examples above. What Tolkien did in Riddles in the Dark and throughout The Hobbit was to combine disparate Germanic ideas in a new context (yes, I know there's a word for that, but I don't like it). Bilbo stands in the role of Ošinn, and his head is also at stake. However, instead of the rather disappointing oral examination to which the Norse god and the frost-giant subject one another, Tolkien substitutes actual riddles with the same enthusiasm as did Alcuin. He reconstructs a game in which the Exeter Book riddles might have been used, following the pattern of medieval exemplars. Heroic poetry has little space for formalised riddle-contests, although it does abound with maxims and contests of wit and intelligence. Indeed, the opening lines of The Finnsburh fragment may be the conclusion of a pseudo-riddle, in which a mysterious phenomenon is described in riddling terms, only to be explained by the hero of the piece. The most obvious point is that heroic literature lives chiefly on the battlefield, whereas riddles are definitely an occupation for an idle hour. There seems little sense in warriors hurling crossword clues at one another when they ought to be throwing spears, and the main use of conundra is therefore to demonstrate the intellectual superiority of the protagonists. In The Hobbit, Bilbo's winning riddle only demonstrates his own confusion, which is probably a subtle joke on Tolkien's part: many hours have been spent in debate over the meaning of Old English riddles. The Rohirrim, although Anglo-Saxon in many respects, are based on the characters of Old English poetry, which as it survives is not laden with formal riddles. The closest that heroic Anglo-Saxon verse comes to genuine riddles is its extensive use of metaphor and variation, which is used by some to suggest a love of enigmatic speech. Being more rooted in the heroic episodes, the Rohirrim are less likely to show the more playful aspects of surviving Anglo-Saxon culture that Tolkien gives to the Hobbits, although it is unlikely that the Rohirrim were without riddles; I am sure that The Lord of the Rings contains a passing reference by Merry to Théoden's knowledge of them, although I must rely on another member's better memory to confirm or deny this. [EDIT: Actually it doesn't. I looked last night and could find no such reference. Since it doesn't seem to appear in the Letters or Unfinished Tales either, it must have been a figment of my imagination.] On the subject of Mercia, we should be very circumspect. The Old English form of this name, Mierce means 'border people', which is a good description of both the Rohirrim and the Mercians. The Old English word mearc, mearce means, among other things, a boundary, and Tolkien's use of it in The Lord of the Rings is probably descriptive rather than related to the Anglo-Saxon kingdom. It should also be borne in mind that Mercia does not equal the West Midlands, as Tolkien would have been the first to point out. At its height under Offa, Mercia formed the whole of central England, from the northern borders of Kent and Wessex to the Humber, from parts of modern Wales to East Anglia. Tolkien sometimes described himself as a Mercian, but his fiction in that direction need not have influenced his portrayal of Rohan. Sorry to continue down what looks to be a cul-de-sac, but in my defence I was asked. Quote:
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02-06-2006, 03:26 PM | #216 | ||
Itinerant Songster
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02-06-2006, 05:32 PM | #217 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalė
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So on the other hand, things do lead into each other, and thus create the story that is, as looked upon afterwards, the only one that happened; or on the other hand, all things that happen, are being designed beforehand to unfold the way intended. So elves might just be seen having to wane before the humans', because the way of the world just turned out that way (elves and humans and others making their choices in different situations that would add up the whole story): here they had their noblest chance to pass even some of their own to the later generations in the Middle Earth, by teaching the humans' etc. Or. Then we can see the elves only as filling their role in a grander tale, as the ones' who were "destined" to do just the things they did, ie. that from the very beginning, there was this fate upon elves, and every individual elve's life kind of served this greater purpose. Who knows, which way Tolkien himself intended this? Was it clear to him, from the very beginning, that elves would fill this role in his world, or was it so, that after all the things he had started and got going, this was the only way the things could come out? Or was there something like "poetic fatalism", that kind of saw and arranged this beforehand, and Tolkien just followed, realizing it only at a later stage?
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02-07-2006, 07:22 AM | #218 | ||
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Elves are naturally at home in the Undying Lands, but this is a place where they would also presumably be unable to independently pursue the dream of having their own realm. Middle-earth must therefore be an attractive place to them for it not only has great beauty and is the place of the Elves' awakening, but it also offers the potential for independence that the Undying Lands cannot offer. Out of interest, Thingol also remains in Middle-earth and creates a 'magical' realm - I wonder if Galadriel was inspired by this in her wish to create Lothlorien?
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02-07-2006, 10:11 AM | #219 | |
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02-07-2006, 10:57 AM | #220 | |||
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