A rather silly question came up

[Gollumm]

Gollum found the Ring in T.A. 2643, and lost it in 2941. During this period, the 3 Rings were probably still being used by the Elves, and Gollum was probably also using the Ring quite often.

So, why didn't Gollum somehow control the Elves? Or didn't even the 3 Ring-Keepers sense Gollum's existence? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Gollumm ]

[Schvenn Of The Schack]

The ring was "asleep" during that time, awaiting it's master's return.
That's my guess, anyway.
Oh that and the face that the ring never imparted the power to control other rings of power to anyone other than Sauron, especially mortals.

[Inziladun]

Frodo wondered about this also, and asked Galadriel about it.

I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?

By 'the others' he had to have been referring to only the Three, since the Nine were held by Sauron (but not worn), as were presumably those of the Seven that had not been destroyed. Galadriel's answer:

You have not tried. Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others.

This indicates that at least Galadriel believed mortals could in time and with concentration have learned to use the Ring to dominate.

However, Gollum apparently only made use of the Ring's power of invisibility, using it to steal, discover secrets, and find food. While he possessed the Ring he apparently had no desire to do anything else with it. This may indeed have been partially due to the Ring's reduced power while Sauron gathered his strength.

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Inziladun ]

[Elrian]

True and there was no way for him to know what power the ring possessed. I think that anyone who tried to use it's power would only be fooled in the end.

[Legolas]

Yes...the ring only answered to its master.

[Imperica]

Gollum did not seek to be the master of thralls.

[HerenIstarion]

Now that last one is disputable:

'No, sweet one. See, my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Sméagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day; fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum! Must have it. We wants it, we wants it, we wants it!

Well, who was supposed to bring the fish three times a day? Though his purposes of having slaves were other desires than having slaves in itself (which proved he was not comletely ruined - his lust was for possesion, not dominance over other wills), yet still.

and wormest welcome to BD Imperica

[Lostgaeriel]

As Heren Istarion has pointed out, Gollum wanted to use the Ring to increase his power (according to his measure) AFTER he had been captured (and released) by Sauron. That is where he learned what great power the Ring had.

[rutslegolas]

ya as all the other members said the ring gave power to a bieng according to its power or stature.

so it gave power to gollum according to its stature and thus only increased his life span but could not control the ring in any way

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

This interesting (old) thread got me to thinking about Gollum's relation to the Ring -- I agree with the sentiments expressed her that Gollum did not have the strength of will to use the Ring in anyway to control the Three: but it's interesting too how he never apparently even tried to use the Ring for dominion. Perhaps this is a sign of whatever Frodo saw in him: something that help out the hope for his redemption -- he had been consumed by the Ring, but he never wanted to use it to control and dominate others. In this regard, he is like Bilbo and Frodo, who were the only other two Ringbearers (or people who felt the attraction of the Ring) who did not fantasize about using it to make themselves more powerful than other people or rulers over them.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

In this regard, he is like Bilbo and Frodo, who were the only other two Ringbearers (or people who felt the attraction of the Ring) who did not fantasize about using it to make themselves more powerful than other people or rulers over them.

Didn't they...

I wonder.

What with all the discussion currently going on in the CbC discussions concerning Frodo and the Ring on Mount Doom, the use of the Ring on the slopes of Orodruin to cow- to control- Gollum, makes one wonder if Frodo actually did NOT fantasize about such things...

After all, he DID ask Galadriel about doing so...

Just a few thoughts.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Didn't they...

I wonder.

What with all the discussion currently going on in the CbC discussions concerning Frodo and the Ring on Mount Doom, the use of the Ring on the slopes of Orodruin to cow- to control- Gollum, makes one wonder if Frodo actually did NOT fantasize about such things...

After all, he DID ask Galadriel about doing so...

Just a few thoughts.

Indeed!

When I read the following quoted passage something clicked into place:

You have not tried. Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others.

Is some kind of 'training' of his will behind the scene when Frodo appears as a vision to Gollum with the 'wheel of fire' at his breast? It is not the first time he has attempted to make Gollum bow down before his 'will' either; in the Emyn Muil he reminded me of a dog trainer in the way he got Gollum to obey him. And he could also be quite forceful with Sam too...

[mormegil]

Is some kind of 'training' of his will behind the scene when Frodo appears as a vision to Gollum with the 'wheel of fire' at his breast? It is not the first time he has attempted to make Gollum bow down before his 'will' either; in the Emyn Muil he reminded me of a dog trainer in the way he got Gollum to obey him. And he could also be quite forceful with Sam too...

I think it might also come to a question about righteous dominion or unrighteous dominion and whether or not the ring was in Frodo's thought at the time. I think these instances are more exhibiting the power that Frodo himself gained through personal struggle and growth and not directly related to the ring. An analogous example comes to mind when Gandalf spoke fiercely and directly with Bilbo to "help" him get rid of the ring. It was a dominion of sorts but without aid of the ring and done for righteous purposes.

[Celebuial]

Originally Posted by mormegil

An analogous example comes to mind when Gandalf spoke fiercely and directly with Bilbo to "help" him get rid of the ring. It was a dominion of sorts but without aid of the ring and done for righteous purposes.

I always got the impression that Gandalf WAS using The Ring Here... Well not The Ring but Narya... Isn't that what he uses it for? To instill hope in the hearts of Men (and Hobbits I guess)?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Celebuial

I always got the impression that Gandalf WAS using The Ring Here... Well not The Ring but Narya... Isn't that what he uses it for? To instill hope in the hearts of Men (and Hobbits I guess)?

While the "uncloaking" gag runs rampant on Crazy Captions there really is a serious side to it and that is what begins to happen here. I'm not so sure that Gandalf uses Narya here but rather he uses his own innate power that has been restricted. He begins to use some of his actual power that is in his own being and threatens to use more of it if needed. After all this was Gandalf's purpose in coming to Middle-earth and though he didn't fully know that it was the one ring but I believe he had some inkling that it is and felt that Bilbo needed to be rid of the ring deep enough in his heart that he used some of his power to accomplish this.

[Celebuial]

Umm... that makes sense... I was always a little confused as to why Gandalf needed to have Narya at all... Was he merely keeping it safe? Sounds a little like he just needed some kind of confidance boost and a little more self belief, or rather something to convince himself to use his own power-although it is rather amusing to imagine Gandalf using Narya in this way.... Hmmm.... A little off topic but, I think a very interesting question is how much of his power is Gandalf allowed to use? And when does he actually use it? I was under the impresion that he was only supposed to influence the inhabitants of Middle-earth through words of council...

[Gothmog]

I'm sorry if I follow the off-topic question here but I hope you forgive me.

I was under the impresion that he was only supposed to influence the inhabitants of Middle-earth through words of council...

That's my impression too. I'd have to look it up, but isn't that the Istari's task in ME? They weren't supposed to go straight to Sauron and fight him til the death of either him or the wizards. The Valar didn't want to interfere with the dealings of men too much. The men had turned they're backs at Valar and they were on their own. But still the Powers sent a little help an guidance in the form of Istari.

Speaking of Gandalf and the elven rings: Narya was the Red Ring of Fire and fire was a bit of a speciality of Gandalf. Remember the fireworks? Or when he interrogated Gollum and put fear in him using fire magic. Or challenging Durin's Bane presenting himself as a servant of the secret fire. Maybe Narya enhanced Gandalf's powers, but he didn't use it "actively"?

And a little more on-topic: I doubt any mortal could have controlled the One enough to control the Three. The ring itself would soon take over completely. Not even Gandalf or Galadriel dares touch the ring because they know they might not resist the temptation of power. They could not control it, how could Gollum have?

[Angry Hill Troll]

Gollum's fantasy about what he would do if he got the Ring back is actually somewhat similar to Sam's, when he is trying to rescue Frodo and looking out over Gorgoroth, and thinking about what a nice garden Mordor could be turned into. Maybe that's just a thing about hobbits, which (relatively) keeps the Ring from causing too much harm in their hands:

Sauron: "With this Ring, I will rule the World!"

Saruman: "With the Ring, I could rule the World!"

Galadriel: "With the Ring, I could rule the World!"

Gandalf: "With the Ring, I would be tempted to rule the World!"

Gollum: "With this Ring, Sméagol can have nice fishess to eat!"

Sam: "With this Ring, I could do a nice bit of gardening in this ugly wasteland!"

Bilbo: "With this Ring, I can give the cursed Sackville-Bagginses the slip!"

Frodo: "With this Ring, I can...uh...look for someone to take it off my hands!"

[Glirdan]

Love that list Angry because they are exact quotes (almost) fromt the book which states that if someone had the will power and strength, they could use The Ring the same way that Sauron uses The Ring. Gandalf, Saruman and Galadriel all had the power to use The Ring for evil, yet they did not have the will to do so. Frodo asked why he couldn't see into the minds of the others as Galadriel could, which shows he did have the will to do so, but only for that brief period of time. Sam had the will to use it for good (gardening) yet he was still concious of what The Ring could do to him which also shows for that period of time, he had the will to use The Ring. Gollum, seeing as he possessed The Ring for so long, always had the will to use it to get fish. Notice how three have the power to use it but not the will, and three have the will to use it and not the power. They were all being put to the test to see what would happen if they had the chance to use it.

Now I know that this was completely random, but I couldn't help but and emphasis on what Angry said in his post.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Angry Hill Troll

Gollum's fantasy about what he would do if he got the Ring back is actually somewhat similar to Sam's, when he is trying to rescue Frodo and looking out over Gorgoroth, and thinking about what a nice garden Mordor could be turned into. Maybe that's just a thing about hobbits, which (relatively) keeps the Ring from causing too much harm in their hands:

Sauron: "With this Ring, I will rule the World!"

Saruman: "With the Ring, I could rule the World!"

Galadriel: "With the Ring, I could rule the World!"

Gandalf: "With the Ring, I would be tempted to rule the World!"

Gollum: "With this Ring, Sméagol can have nice fishess to eat!"

Sam: "With this Ring, I could do a nice bit of gardening in this ugly wasteland!"

Bilbo: "With this Ring, I can give the cursed Sackville-Bagginses the slip!"

Frodo: "With this Ring, I can...uh...look for someone to take it off my hands!"

That's an awful lot of fun, but also a good statement, though I disagree in a way with your Frodo-analysis. "With this ring, I will destroy it if no one else will do it", would be probably more correct (but less funny, I agree), since Frodo carried on with the task willingly (he took it upon himself at Rivendell). He also grew 'addicted' to the ring and in the end he claimed it as his own. But your statement has a good point - Frodo needed actually someone else to take it off his hands

[Angry Hill Troll]

thanks for the comments, Thinlómien

I was trying to think of what to write for Frodo, and realized that Frodo seems to be the only person who possesses or seeks the Ring, who never expresses a desire to do anything with it, however mundane (a la Sam and Gollum).

I got the feeling, when he is asking Galadriel why he can't read the minds of the other ringbearers, that it's more of an informational question than expressing desire to do so--his Osanwë experience with Galadriel (the only person he knows to be a ringbearer) was rather intimidating to Frodo.

Maybe for these reasons Frodo is probably the best possible ringbearer.

Of course in the end he is overcome and wants to keep the ring--Gollum 'takes it off his hands' by taking a finger with it!

But before that, Frodo successively tries to give the Ring to Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel.

Kind of the "anyone who would want to be a ringbearer is unfit to be one" conundrum.

Cheers!