Uhg- A terrible thought

[Joy]

Wow! I have read both of those passages, but didn't really go that far with it.

As with the situation with Arien, I see this as Morgoth wanting to defile all that represents good and light (even more so with Arien, the Sun-Maiden).

He is very darkness and hate all Light.

___________
And sadly, I know what it is to go through something like that - though my situation wasn't violent.

It destroys a person's pshyce (spirit). It crushes a person. One who is innocent in all ways is brougth even lower. So, I can understand that one of the Eldar, who is the Fairest of all the Children on Iluvatar would depart the hroa in a case of rape or any other violation of the body - for it would be even more a violation of the feä of this being.

Makes you wonder about Celebrian also. What kind of torment did she receive at the hands of the Orcs?

[the guy who be short]

I know that Morgoth couldn't produce offspring anyway, but I just thought I'd add an idea.

Morgoth would most likely never have wanted a child. The theme of son-overpowering-powerful-God is recurrent in mythology - look at old Zeusy. A child to him would be a threat. So if he didn't know he was, er, sterile, I don't think he'd have wanted to risk conception. And they didn't have contraception in those days.

Quite odd of Old Tollers to make him sterile though. I can name a few evil people who managed kids...

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Morgoth would most likely never have wanted a child. The theme of son-overpowering-powerful-God is recurrent in mythology - look at old Zeusy....

Yes, Zeus and his pantheon rebelling against their father, Kronos and making the visible world with parts of his body, or Odin and his pantheon rebelling against Ymir and making the visible world out of his corpse, etc, etc.

The interesting thing about that, is that this particular theme in mythology is to be found in virtually all cultures, except that of the Hebrews. Now, looking at it from a Judeo-Christian point of view, the explanation could be said that while all cultures seem to have a concept of this rebellion of the Created against the Creator, only the Jews understood that the Father brought the world into being, and not his rebellious creations.

An interesting concept to consider, in the light of Tolkien's Catholicism.

[tar-ancalime]

Those more knowledgeable than I about the details of the legendarium have cleared up the issue of whether or not Morgoth COULD have impregnated Luthien.

But I think that the actual event is rather beside the point. For me, the power of these passages is in the imaginings of Morgoth: the fact that he could even envision such a thing echoes Yeats and raises the specter of another Dark Lord to come (and in fact, there was a certain red-eyed lunatic of the Second and Third Ages who filled that role rather well, even if he did not actually issue from Morgoth's loins).

(The Yeats passage I'm thinking of)

The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Morgoth's lust foreshadows the coming to power of Sauron, regardless of the physical limitations on a Morgoth-Luthien pairing.

And by the way, while we're on the subject of loins, it seems to me obvious that any corporeal being would come pre-loaded with all necessary equipment. Our genitals are not "extra" or "after-market," and neither are they superfluous to our lives. True, Tolkien did not waste time discussing them, but that doesn't erase them from existence. Do you doubt, for comparison's sake, that Bilbo had tonsils or an Adam's apple?

[The 1,000 Reader]

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but when Melkor tried to rape Arien did she not burst into flames and scar him before he could commit the act?

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but when Melkor tried to rape Arien did she not burst into flames and scar him before he could commit the act?

Yes.

Wasn't there a variation of the tale where Tillion attempted to come to her aid, and was scarred as well?