Does LotR have cross-cultural appeal?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Do you feel your view of the Lengendarium is impacted by religion. If yes, which religion and what is the strength of your adherence or non-adherence? (optional).

Do you find that the Legendarium and your faith conflict or supplement each other.

Hmmm. I was under the impression that Saucepan was asking something slightly different:

Is the Legendarium impacted by religion/cultural values? If yes, how does this perspective relate to your own religion/culture cultural values?

Of course, this could just be my interpretation of Sauce's meaning.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

That could very well be Bb, my mind does have a way of rambling, and it does seem inside out now that you mention it. But I do think both questions might yield interesting results, and we might encompass more threads than this one. Hence the question on age when the books were read.

One could also ask if the participant feels the books to have had an impact on their life, for instance, which I believe is on another thread. If one is going to do a survey it might be nice to cover a few threads at once, provided all questions are voluntary and it isn't overly long. The results should be anonymous though.

[Bêthberry]

Ah, Hilde, I canna wait for questionnaires or for Sauce to finish his Wolfman role.

This is the kind of thing that interests me about SaucepanMan's ideas. I'm going to copy a few short posts between davem and myself from Estelyn's excellent thread, Not all those who wander are lost.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Of course the first character we meet in the whole Legendarium is a wanderer - Eriol/Aelfwine the mariner - which is another thing that strikes me - how many of Tolkien's wanderers have links to the Sea - Tuor, Earendel, the father-son pairs in Lost Road & Notion Club Papers, Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Sam, Legolas & Gimli - even the more 'static' characters like Elrond & Galadriel - all finally seek the Sea. Even in SoWM Smith finds the Sea of Windless Storm.The Kingdoms of Gondor & Arnor are founded by Men who come from over the Sea.

The Road goes ever on, & it seems that that Road leads to the Sea - & ultimately over it to what lies beyond. [end davem quote]


Well, what would we expect from an author who was writing a mythology for an island nation?

Originally Posted by davem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bb
Well, what would we expect from an author who was writing a mythology for an island nation? [end Bb quote]


I wasn't talking about the sea, but the Sea.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
I wasn't talking about the sea, but the Sea.[end davem quote]



I see. And so this is another example of a localised social and historical trait that is extrapolated into a Universal value applicable to every history and society?

Originally Posted by davem

Quoted by Bethberry:
I see. And so this is another example of a localised social and historical trait that is extrapolated into a Universal value applicable to every history and society? [end Bb quote]



Yes.

Clearly, for Tolkien "The Sea" was an abstract concept of some particular meaning, as several of us Downers are exploring on Esty's thread. Within the secondary world of Middle-earth I can accept it value as a trope of enlightenment, but when or if discussion begins to treat 'the Sea' as a true universal, then to me, it demonstrates how once culture generates from itself an ideal which it universalises as if it applies to everyone.

From the Old Engish poem "The Seafarer", through to Defoe's "Robinson Crusoe" to John Masefield's poem "I must go down to the sea again", the sea has held a special and particular meaning for the English nation, an island people surrounded by water with naval traditions both glorious and horrendous. Some might even say that England has a premium on pirates, too, as well as Her Majesty's Navy. It has become a kind of 'shortcut' trope where those who belong to the culture understand its lure and appeal, its many layered possibilities of meaning, from terror to spiritual truth.

The sea is a trope for many kinds of things in several cultures. The Bible abounds in shipwreck stories and metaphors for it--even beyond the story of the Parting of the Red Sea. Tolkien even refers, in his letter to one of his sons about life, love, marriage and women, to "this shipwreck"meaning the disasterous nature of life to flounder on shoals.

But to assume that the Sea is always and ever a trope of profound spiritual meaning which everyone longs for is to prioritise the English cultural experience as the universal model. What is the sea, for example, in the desert cultures of Africa? What is the sea in the aboriginal mythologies of the Native Peoples of North America? In East Indian culture?

My point isn't so much to disprove davem's point but to suggest, modestly, that the values which The Sea plays in Tolkien are not necessarily values which are easily read by people of other cultures. Nor should we glibly assume that Tolkien's The Sea is in fact The Truth.

And now back to our regularly scheduled quest for the questionnaire....

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

My point isn't so much to disprove davem's point but to suggest, modestly, that the values which The Sea plays in Tolkien are not necessarily values which are easily read by people of other cultures.

That's an excellent example of the sort of concept that I was blindly struggling for when I started this thread, Bb.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Some might even say that England has a premium on pirates, too ...

Privateers, please.

[Maédhros]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Interestingly, as I have noted above, LotR’s appeal within Europe seems to be particularly focussed within those countries which might broadly be described as having Anglo-Saxon, Germanic and Scandinavian (and possibly Celtic) heritages. Clearly, many Downers hail from the UK, and there are quite a few from Germany, the Netherlands and (in particular) the Scandinavian countries. On the other hand, I have seen few, if any, members from France, Italy or Spain (although I know that there are a few very popular Spanish LotR fansites). Yet these are the countries of Europe in which Tolkien’s own faith, Catholicism, is strongest. I wonder why this is? Is it simply because, while the book may be popular in these countries, readers prefer forums based upon their own language (as seems to be the case in Spain)?

I will try and give my opinions coming from a different area of the world, in my case it would be Latin America where there is a strong Catholic presence. I think that LotR is popular in some form but definitely not the way that it is in a country like Spain. I only know 2 persons besides me that have read the whole thing. I personally believe that you should try and read the authors work in their own language, because in a translation you would loose something of the work. Even thought my native language isn't english, I just can't read LotR in spanish, I just hate the translation of the names. Yuck. The same thing with spanish LotR sites, I have posted and participated in them but not to the extent that I have done in this and other english sites.
Having said that, the spanish Translation of The Cottage of Lost Play is amazing!
De La Cabaña de los Juegos Perdidos

“Ahora bien, a un costado de la cabaña había un matorral de lilas blancas, y en el otro extremo un poderoso tejo con cuyos vástagos los niños construían arcos o por cuyas ramas trepaban al techo. Pero todo pájaro que alguna vez cantó, acudía a las lilas y cantaba dulcemente. Ahora bien, las paredes de la cabaña se inclinaban por la edad, y los múltiples ventanucos eran de un enrejado retorcido en las formas más extrañas. Nadie, se decía, vivía en la cabaña, que estaba sin embargo guardada en secreto y con celo por los Elfos, para que ningún daño le ocurriera, y los niños que jugaban allí libremente no sabían que hubiera alguna guardia. Esta era la Cabaña de los Niños o del Juego del Sueño, y no del Juego Perdido, como se cantó erróneamente entre los Hombres... porque ningún juego se había perdido entonces, y aquí y ahora ¡ay! está la Cabaña del Juego Perdido.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I would be interested to hear other perspectives on this issue. Are you aware of LotR having cross-cultural appeal? Are there any Downers who do not hail from the European/Judaeo-Christian traditions that I mention above? If so, do you find that there are elements that the book has in common with your own traditions (whether cultural or faith-based)? Have I simply under-estimated the broad appeal of the book based upon a relatively narrow cross-section of the Tolkien-reading world (ie Barrow-Downs membership)? Also, does ethnic origin come into it at all? I would say that the majority of Downers are Caucasian, but there are a good few members of Oriental and Asian ethnic descent. But what about those of African and Afro-Caribbean descent? Does LotR have particular appeal only among certain ethnic groups? Please share your thoughts.

Have you noticed in the barrow-downs photo page, how many of the people there are not caucasians? I know that it is not a good sample size of the population of the forum but still it makes me wonder.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

But to assume that the Sea is always and ever a trope of profound spiritual meaning which everyone longs for is to prioritise the English cultural experience as the universal model. What is the sea, for example, in the desert cultures of Africa? What is the sea in the aboriginal mythologies of the Native Peoples of North America? In East Indian culture?

My point isn't so much to disprove davem's point but to suggest, modestly, that the values which The Sea plays in Tolkien are not necessarily values which are easily read by people of other cultures. Nor should we glibly assume that Tolkien's The Sea is in fact The Truth.

I have to begin by saying that it's not just England, but also the other British nations - The Sea has far more significance to someone in Aberdeen or Belfast than it does to someone in Birmingham. But yes the notion of The Sea is a deeply ingrained one in British people (as the guy on the documentary series The Coast reminds us at the end of each episode, in Britain you are never more than 72 miles from the sea ).

I would argue that the concept of The Sea is a strong one for many more cultures than just the British; some of the greatest explorers and mariners were Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Greek, Scandinavian and Italian. People from the Americas themselves have a strong fascination with The Sea, as demonstrated in Moby Dick. The Japanese (another Island nation admittedly) also share this fascination.

But I agree that as a concept it is not Universal. But it is not the only concept in Tolkien's work which attracts, it is just one among many. I would argue that the stronger draw is the idea of the journey, the adventure. This is something Universal. Tales of journeys occur in every culture, together with the trials that are met along the way, so here is something which all cultures can appreciate in Tolkien's work, and the idea of the journey is the backbone of the story.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But I agree that as a concept it [the Sea] is not Universal. But it is not the only concept in Tolkien's work which attracts, it is just one among many. I would argue that the stronger draw is the idea of the journey, the adventure. This is something Universal. Tales of journeys occur in every culture, together with the trials that are met along the way, so here is something which all cultures can appreciate in Tolkien's work, and the idea of the journey is the backbone of the story.

True indeed. Here, I think Cervantes' Don Quixote is one of the seminal works in European culture at least, although not the only, well, will I be allowed to call it, road show?

And I think this might be one reason why so many protagonists of the adventures are orphaned or alone. It focusses the point.