Luthien & Galadriel

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur

Can you gimme the link for this "Fleiger's splinetred light"? thanks.

Its a book 'Splintered Light' by Verlyn Flieger. Basically, she explores Tolkien's use of Light & Lnaguage & the way the two fragment & move away from a state of perfection.

I'll add my thoughts to this worthy topic. There's a lot going on and we have two very worthy elf-women. In terms of overall 'power'-the ability to exert one's will on Arda, its matter and its inhabitants-my choice rests with Galadriel.

The main reason I say this is because Galadriel desired power; Luthien really did not. Furthermore, Galadriel was naturally placed into a position of power, as one of the few High Elves left in a darkening Age. Luthien's power was used to save her true love.


It has been said Galadriel was a big fish in a small pond, but this is misleading. She is one of the powerful Noldorin elves, in a class almost with Feanor, and she left Aman in order to gain power-specifically, her own realm and lands. She isn't a Third Age elf; she's a First Age elf, and a strong one.

Naturally, Elves are less 'powerful' than Maiar, speaking very generally. But Luthien was an elf before all, albeit an elf with half-Maiarin blood. This allowed her to work 'magic' in a sense, yes, but not to wield 'power' any more than normal.

Whoever said the Light of the Trees didn't strengthen Elves: I disagree with this.

Pressed for time now, more later. To finish for now:
Luthien had the potential, if she wished, to become a power; but it wasn't in her nature or her desire. Besides, who wouldn't be content being the "loveliest maiden of Elvenesse?"

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

Besides, who wouldn't be content being the "loveliest maiden of Elvenesse?"

Me. And most guys, I hope.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by davem

Its a book 'Splintered Light' by Verlyn Flieger. Basically, she explores Tolkien's use of Light & Lnaguage & the way the two fragment & move away from a state of perfection.

I'm not sure if I'm utterly convinced. Galadriel was guiltless any of kin slaying or oath swearing. She only wanted to rule a realm at her own will. Where Feanor had declared his animosity for the Valar, Galadriel, though rebelling against the decree of the Valar (btw pardoned after 1st age) by staying in ME was nevertheless on their side, & truly it manifested in her motives & her deeds. I doubt her spiritual prowess dimished ( she always had reverence for them esp. Varda). Quite the contrary. Her sojourn in ME made her more potent.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Could any Catholic (or Christian - not at all sure of the relevant differences) comment on the significance of Galdriel's desire for power? Is it not slightly evil?

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Could any Catholic (or Christian - not at all sure of the relevant differences) comment on the significance of Galdriel's desire for power? Is it not slightly evil?

Well, I'm Catholic. Galadriel's desire for power isn't neccesarily evil. She wanted to rule a realm at her own will without the tutelage of the Valar. She was after all brilliant in mind. In the LOTR she has a more Marian quality (virgin Mary) & exhibits qualities similar to that of Melian & Varda. She doesn't plan to become the next Dark Lord by desiring the ring. It merely gave her an oppurtunity to enhance & preserve her already existing power (Nenya). Her pride too was a key element of her desire for power but ultimately she passes the test. She wasn't evil, but I'd say she is a tester (if that makes any sense).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

"Luthien had the potential, if she wished, to become a power; but it wasn't in her nature or her desire. Besides, who wouldn't be content being the "loveliest maiden of Elvenesse?"

Oh, sorry, now I really have got to explain why for any self respecting woman there is no choice between Galadriel and Luthien. And since it is clearly not blindingly obvious to everyone - Galadriel wins..... But you will have to wait 'til Saturday now........

I also am Catholic, as was the Professor. The point is well-made; in Middle-earth, for anyone to seek power as an end in itself was considered dangerous, if not evil. In the introduction to the Silmarillion, I believe, the Professor remarks that 'power' is generally used to describe the devices of the Enemy. Galadriel herself remarks on the danger of magic in the Fellowship of the Ring. But as is obvious, she never went the full distance. I would compare Luthien more to Mary, actually, in terms of purity and other qualities.

Formendacil: Amend my previous statement to read: "What female would not...Elvenesse?"

But back to the main argument: power. Someone made an excellent point about type of power. Luthien can affect the minds and wills of other people directly; Galadriel does less of this, but is more like Melian, in that her mind and will is directly engaged in conflict with the Enemy, and that she protects a land and an entire people. Luthien had no hope of contesting Sauron alone, but Sauron, by assuming werewolf-form to strive with Huan and getting owned, defeated himself. He surrendered the "words of power" for Tol-in-Gaurhoth to Luthien-the magic that held the entire fortress and its mastery. Luthien also was lucky, or wise, in that she was continually underestimated-by her father, by Sauron, by Morgoth himself.

As for deeds: Luthien holds the clear superiority. Taking a Silmaril from the Great Enemy may be the greatest single deed ever accomplished in Arda. She accomplished this, however, not through contest of power, but through charm. Essentially, she seduced Morgoth to the point where she could lay him under a spell of sleep with the excellent cloak she made. Moving into hypothesis, as goes the Dark Enemy, so go his creations. They were imbued with his power and directly tied to him; when he goes down, so do they. I don't know how else Luthien could put all of them to sleep. Again, this is not power but her natural gifts of beauty, charm, and immense courage. Galadriel had about the chance to charm someone as Carcharoth.

My last point for now is that Morgoth, though inherently far more powerful than Sauron, weakened himself, as is told in Morgoth's Ring, by pouring his energy into malice and into his creatures. By the end of the First Age, Sauron had more overall power than his master.

In terms of deeds, Luthien owns Galadriel; but when it comes to power, and the use of it, I think that Galadriel, through centuries of ruling and maintaining a kingdom against Sauron, by her natural (though Aman-enhanced) strength, deserves victory.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

Luthien had the potential, if she wished, to become a power; but it wasn't in her nature or her desire. Besides, who wouldn't be content being the "loveliest maiden of Elvenesse?"

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Me. And most guys, I hope.

Originally Posted by Cirdan

Amend my previous statement to read: "What female would not...Elvenesse?"

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oh, sorry, now I really have got to explain why for any self respecting woman there is no choice between Galadriel and Luthien. And since it is clearly not blindingly obvious to everyone - Galadriel wins..... But you will have to wait 'til Saturday now........

Here, here, Mithalwen.

Perhaps Formendacil would have been happier with the phrasing "having
the 'loveliest maidern of Elvenesse' ?

And, no, that isn't a comment 'applicable' to Formendacil alone.

Sadly, one need only read all the comments here at the Downs about Celeborn to understand just what some of the problems are the characterisation of Galadriel.

Originally Posted by Cirdan

Again, this is not power but her [Luthien's] natural gifts of beauty, charm, and immense courage.

As if 'beauty, charm and courage' do not give power?

One problem with Middle-earth is the idea that beauty cannot represent evil, only ugliness can. Tolkien mentions this in one of his Letters. It's a given you have to accept in order to remain enchanted by the subcreated story, but it's a given that unfortunately limits the very applicability to the primary world which Tolkien might have wished his ethical view to have.

Touche. Lucky Beren...

Not in the sense that Professor Tolkien gave to the word "power." In Arda, "power" was, very generally, considered to belong to the Enemy (the Elves were more into Art...as for the Valar, in a perfect world, i.e. Arda Unmarred, they would not need to wield power.)

You are right; unfortunately, I've not read the Letters yet. Evil can assume the face of beauty-Morgoth after his first capture, Sauron as Annatar and in Numenor.

[davem]

On Luthien - from the essay 'And she named her own name' by Richard C West:

Not only does she confront Morgoth in his inner sanctum before his fiendish court, but she throws off the disguise that has allowed her to enter Thangorodrim, & further, as the summary in chapter XIX of The Silmarillion so startlingly phrases it. 'and she named her own name'.....By giving her true name, however, she has, in mythological terms, placed herself in his power. It is perhaps the single greatest act of courage in the entire history of Middle-earth, which is not lacking in courageous actions.

Galadriel never comes close to such an act.

[Bêthberry]

Interesting of course that Eowyn does just that as she (with a little help from a friend) dispatches the WitchKing.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Interesting of course that Eowyn does just that as she (with a little help from a friend) dispatches the WitchKing.

West comments:

Having taken the form of an aggressive male, he does not percieve any danger from an apparently delicate maiden (as he might have had it been a warrior who confronted him, whether a man like Beren or a shieldmaiden like Eowyn...

I'd doubt that even Eowyn would have gone unarmed into Barad-dur to confront Sauron.

I can't see her dancing in front of him, either.

[Mithalwen]

I would say Eowyn was braver then for she faced a enemy far beyond her and did not flinch and she was not motivated by Luthien's self interest.

Galadriel's greatest struggles were internal. Was not refusing the ring for one as ambitious as she a mighty struggle.

Not to forget that Eowyn and Galadriel have personalities...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I can't see her dancing in front of him, either.

Oh don't you wish.

Lal, take careful note.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Not to forget that Eowyn and Galadriel have personalities...

Interesting, though, that all three female characters in some way reflect a personal rebellion against 'rightful' authority.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I would say Eowyn was braver then for she faced a enemy far beyond her and did not flinch and she was not motivated by Luthien's self interest.

I'd say Morgoth was far beyond Luthien - in terms of physical (& 'magical') power - Morgoth was outwitted. That makes Luthien both brave & cunning.

Galadriel's greatest struggles were internal. Was not refusing the ring for one as ambitious as she a mighty struggle.

I suspect that there was a great internal struggle on Luthien's part - one doesn't walk into 'Hell' easily. If Eowyn was motivated by love (for her king) on the field of Pelennor, then I don't see much difference between them apart from the much greater courage required on Luthien's part - after all, Eowyn didn't know she would have to confront the WK - Luthien walked into Thangorodrim in full knowledge of what she would face...

Not to forget that Eowyn and Galadriel have personalities...

Beren & Luthien's story is a legend told by the characters at the end of the Third Age - of course there's less 'psychological depth' shown. The tale has survived in various forms over thousands of years. It won't have the 'immediacy' of the story of the WR - which is told in a different form.

[Mithalwen]

Make that no psychological depth - she doesn't speak..... she doesn't do anything until that gloop Beren turns up, she achieves nothing but death for anyone other than herself. She allows herself to be imprisoned in a tree. Idril whose tale is told in the same way is far more interesting .... As a feminist find nothing likeable or endearing about Luthien.... to put it mildly

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

... and she was not motivated by Luthien's self interest.

Her love for Beren was self interest? Well, I suppose that you could look at it that way. But doesn't that rather take the magic away ...?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Am I missing something here? What did Beren ever do to earn such mockery? As far as I can tell he was a fine warrior, a fantastically brave soul, and a devout and wonderfully loving man. Just about the perfect role model for us boys, methinks.

And saying that Luthien achieves nothing but death for others is like saying the oppressed should not fight back. She could have just stayed in the tree, but that would have been quite uninteresting; and the death would have been instigated by Morgoth all the same. All this death that she 'achieved' was already written in the stars.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Am I missing something here? What did Beren ever do to earn such mockery? As far as I can tell he was a fine warrior, a fantastically brave soul, and a devout and wonderfully loving man. Just about the perfect role model for us boys, methinks.

And saying that Luthien achieves nothing but death for others is like saying the oppressed should not fight back. She could have just stayed in the tree, but that would have been quite uninteresting; and the death would have been instigated by Morgoth all the same. All this death that she 'achieved' was already written in the stars.

Anyone who has such power who allows them to be locked in a tree or anywhere else has no self respect.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

She escaped pretty easily. Seems as though she didn't mind being in the tree. Maybe she had nothing better to do?

Or maybe it was respect for her father? I don't exactly know what Tolkien was meaning by this. It seems like an odd affair to me.