Tolkien-founder of new religion?

[VanimaEdhel]

This has a lot of information on Islam - including links to other sites, in case you're interested daeron. Religious Tolerance.org is a great site about all different religions in general, actually - it has information on the actual site along with links to other sites with even more information. It also recommends books to read on the subject, etc.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by VanimaEdhel

Why would Tolkien create such a rich history - delving into lineages, histories and even tongues - if he did not want people at least to lose themselves in his created mythology? He even admittedly was quoted saying that he himself often lost himself in his own world - his own creation. It became almost like an addiction, I would say, that he had to build on this world. It is very, very understandable in my view - and as a person whose main hobby in her off time is to write, I envy him for finding a world that did that for him.

Let's put ourselves in Tolkien's shoes...if we have written a whole mythology complete with languages and all that is inevitably inspired by our religion, and we find out that some who read our books use them to create a religion of their own, how would we feel?

I would have been disappointed, if not entirely annoyed. My works are indirectly but a 'product' of my faith, yet people are placing them on a pedestal that is not rightly theirs. They worship that which is created by one who is merely created herself. Which is weird, to say the least.

[daeron]

Davem, what stops a person from declaring anything as "God revealed" ?
I don't intend to try and make you doubt your faith, but just think if a "Tolkienian Gospel" (properly written) is carried around the world by a person as being "God revealed", there would be many who would flock to him (Of course, he would no doubt be dead before he leaves the city, courtesy fanatics and politicians ). Are there not many conmen around the world who take advantage of people's religious feelings and superstition?

Suppose, even today, I find an undiscovered island with people who have no knowledge of the world outside, I would be able to talk them into accepting "Eruism" as their faith and me as a Prophet. If the world were invaded by aliens who declared to be messengers of God, would not the ignorant believe them?

And Vanima, thanks for the links. They were really good. We should make efforts to get the site publically known. There are a few eyeopeners on Islam there. Especially the quotes from Quran.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by daeron

Are there not many conmen around the world who take advantage of people's religious feelings and superstition?

People do it all of the time. As I am more familiar with Christianity, I see many examples where persons declare that God has spoken to them, and had said 'something.' Some of the revelations are contrary to Christian doctrine, and prophetic statements are shown to be false/in error.

And yet these people still believe and support these persons. This example has stated the following:

• people will be healed and even raised from the dead by placing their hands on a TV on which he is broadcasting,

• Cuban dictator Fidel Castro will die in the 1990's,

• Jesus Christ will appear with this pastor on stage when he 'performs' in Africa.

Anyway, my point is that if I wanted to promote Eruism, I wouldn't come out and start shouting about it. I would find a more isolated and less-informed group of souls that already have some belief and slowly move them via new revelation over to Eruism. As an example, I could state that the Christian God's true name is Eru, as this is the true 'true' translation of YHWH.

And then just go from there...

If the person cited in the link can move people that far away from the Christian doctrine, then I don't see why I couldn't move them a bit further.

And lastly, how many writers, prophets and historical figures are screaming from the grave, "That's not what I meant!"

[Turgon Philip Noldor]

I want to inform you all that I will be off the Downs for some time now. I hope to have my own Thread ready when I come back. I am not going to be back for a while due to the poor internet accses where I am going. I might get on every once in a while to check how some of the Threads are going and what twist the convrsation is making. It's been a plesure talking to you all, nice talking to you in spicific daeron. I'll be praying for you.

God bless,
Turgon

[VanimaEdhel]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Let's put ourselves in Tolkien's shoes...if we have written a whole mythology complete with languages and all that is inevitably inspired by our religion, and we find out that some who read our books use them to create a religion of their own, how would we feel?

I would have been disappointed, if not entirely annoyed. My works are indirectly but a 'product' of my faith, yet people are placing them on a pedestal that is not rightly theirs. They worship that which is created by one who is merely created herself. Which is weird, to say the least.

My entire reasoning behind my own declaration that I would not join a Tolkien-based religion is exactly that, Lhuna, as I said before. I said that I did not think Tolkien intended his works to form a world-wide religion - that he would not want me, to echo my own words, "to hang a ring from my neck and mutter 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel' every now and then". However, I said that does not preclude the concept of another person starting a Tolkienite religion.

And I don't think Tolkien would necessarily be disappointed or annoyed. Based on my readings regarding his reaction to people's obsession with his books - especially in reaction to how some of us American's treated them - he seemed to look on with a fair bit of amusement. It was more along the lines of "those silly people" than "you're entirely missing the point." Tolkien seemed to have good humor about his books - although he took them entirely seriously within his own mind. By publishing the books, in my opinion, he was permitting the public to do as they willed with his product - that's what publishing does. Once you allow someone to print your book and distribute it, you have to accept that people will do with your ideas what they will. If Tolkien did not want other people to interpret his writing as they wanted, he would not have published the works that he did. He was most certainly a smart enough man to know that once the world in the books was out of his hands, the public would rend it as they wanted - interpret it different ways, get different messages out of it. If he got offended by people's "devotion" to it, if some did create a religion around hit, that would be rather nonsensical - never put something out in the world in writing that you don't want people to read and mold to suit themselves.

I have been blessed in that I have made the acquaintance of some very, very gifted writers - some little older than I am. They create their own worlds of fantasy, but there are some that, even if they ever decide to publish their works, would never allow one or two of the creations in their head out into the world. This is because they don't want people changing anything regarding the image they have in their mind - they also don't want to share it with others because it's their own "secret" world that they don't want tainted. If Tolkien really felt that way about Middle Earth, I think it would have stayed in his head.

I think any frustration he would have with readers - through "putting myself in his shoes", as you suggested - would be derived from the fact that they're not finding their own way to religion. Merely taking his creations and deciding to elevate them to a sacred status is eliminating an entire spiritual journey for some. Tolkien was a spiritual man, in my opinion - to him the journey to realization was probably more important than the actual destination. If you trace many of his stories, they reflect this very thing: the journey one took, whether physical or emotional, was often more climactic in itself than the eventual climax. The end was vital, of course, but it was the journey that defined the person, not their ultimate end. They would be remembered for the end, but they would be scarred by the track they took to get there. By just taking The Silmarillion and calling it a religious text, people aren't really continuing their journey: it's more like they're just settling on something they admire.

Originally Posted by daeron

Davem, what stops a person from declaring anything as "God revealed" ?

Exactly. I could point to my empty 12 oz soda bottle from yesterday, declare it to be my own deity, and if I really believed it, I don't think it would be right for anyone to stop my worship (note: I'm being facetious).

Actually, oddly enough, I can think of an example in my favorite show, Deadwood. There is this slightly mentally-addled character, Richardson, that works in the Grand Central Hotel, owned by (Mayor) E.B. Farnum. Richardson was instructed to accompany one of the main characters, Alma Garret, around the town - it was 1877, so a woman was not supposed to walk alone in a rough thoroughfare such as that in Deadwood, South Dakota. Richardson worshipped Alma Garret - thought she was one of the most beautiful creatures and would do anything for her. Anyway, she asked him to go inside the Gem Saloon to deliver a message for her. He left her standing by a pile of old antlers, about chest-high. She took one of the antlers and was playing with it idly, waiting for him to return - also trying to get her mind off of her nausea (she was in the early stages of pregnancy). When Richardson returned, they set off walking again, and Alma realized that she still held the antler. She gave said antler to Richardson, merely saying, "Here."

Richardson held onto the antler as a token from the woman that he loved.

Later the son of Sheriff Seth Bullock (historical figure, as most are in the show - most of it is at least loosely based on what really happened in the town, and most of the characters are based on real ones) is involved in a fatal accident: he is in a coma in the doctor's cabin. The doctor doubts that he will live.

Meanwhile, back at the Grand Central, E.B. Farnum finds Richarson standing, holding the antler in both hands, pointing it up at the moose head hanging over the stairway of the hotel. Richardson claims that this is his way of praying for a "safe journey for the little one's soul." An old character, Andy Cramed, resurfaces as a Reverend, and E.B. makes many "idolatry" jokes at Richardson's expense.

However, Richardson proves to be the only one hoping for a peaceful demise for little William Bullock. All the others hold onto a hope that even the doctor says is futile - Richardson, one of the fools of the show, is one of the few that sees that William's recovery is impossible. He proves to be the most logical in his prayers, although they are to an odd deity.

Originally Posted by daeron

If the world were invaded by aliens who declared to be messengers of God, would not the ignorant believe them?

And you know, for all we know, they could be messengers of a God. I think we're about that developed as far as knowing who "God" really is, who his servants are, and where we stand in the world. Those with knowledge may believe them too - wanting to believe that God would send such higher beings.

I'm not an atheist - I'm not a Christian by any standards but I'm not an atheist (it doesn't have to be one or the other - in fact practiced Christianity is almost a minority in this area). I was raised in a mostly Jewish family, and my religion is probably closest to Judaism of the three Abrahamic faiths - Christianity, Judaism and Islam - but I fall more into the Spiritualist category. But, I understand the need for people to create their own answers about what's "out" there, and their need for their ideas to be the right ones. That's one reason I could never belong to one religion: I don't think we're able to "know" what's out there - claiming that we do would just be arrogant. We can formulate our own hypotheses and theses, but we have to remember that's all they are: ideas - unprovable notions about what the Universe and even other dimensions may contain.

Originally Posted by daeron

And Vanima, thanks for the links. They were really good. We should make efforts to get the site publically known. There are a few eyeopeners on Islam there. Especially the quotes from Quran.

Yes. So few people know what the Qu'ran actually says. I'm lucky in that they teach us the fundamental elements of what religions are really about in our school. Well, they don't cover Judaism, but most of us are Jewish anyway, and if someone's not Jewish, most of their friends are. But we read the Bible as literature in ninth grade (when I was fourteen) and we covered the basic principles of Islam. In Middle School (ages eleven through thirteen), we also learned about Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, and many other non-Western religions. We learned the basic elements of Egyptian, Celtic, Greek and Roman mythology...really, the one mythology that I'm sad we didn't touch on is Norse mythology. All this made me very interested in religions, so I kind of study them in my free time. I might end up being a Theology major, rather than Political Science or International Relations, who knows? All I know is I'm going to major or minor in Theater as well.

Originally Posted by alatar

People do it all of the time. As I am more familiar with Christianity, I see many examples where persons declare that God has spoken to them, and had said 'something.'

That's why I believe it's impossible for us to know - anyone can say God spoke to them. You cannot really believe for certain whether such a being did contact them or not.

Originally Posted by alatar

And lastly, how many writers, prophets and historical figures are screaming from the grave, "That's not what I meant!"

Exactly, which goes back to my comment that if a writer who has his own world in his head doesn't want people to corrupt a certain world of his, he just doesn't publish it. Tolkien's a brilliant enough man to know that. Not much you can do about it though, if you don't want your works corrupted. To get upset about it if you're alive to witness the corruption is just silly. People will believe what they want - you can take almost anything and read it a certain way to reflect your own points. Look at all the different interpretations of the Bible by different denominations.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by VanimaEdhel

And I don't think Tolkien would necessarily be disappointed or annoyed. Based on my readings regarding his reaction to people's obsession with his books - especially in reaction to how some of us American's treated them - he seemed to look on with a fair bit of amusement.

On the contrary, there are Letters that show he found the "American thing" deplorable and worrisome. He had a rather dim view of Americans in general (see Letter 76). But Letter 328 (Autumn 1971) is most telling:

The horrors of the American scene I will pass over, though they have given me great distress and labour. (They arise in an entirely different mental climate and soil, polluted and impoverished to a degree only paralleled by the lunatic destruction of the physical lands which Americans inhabit).

There you have it, the three words Tolkien had reserved for Americans as a general population: polluted, impoverished, and lunatic. Trouble is, I see his point.

Granted, some (but not all) of this seems to be about the Ace Books piracy issue. But I also recall reading that he was quite distressed about the "Frodo Lives" type of thing found in American subways, etc.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by VanimaEdhel

That's one reason I could never belong to one religion: I don't think we're able to "know" what's out there - claiming that we do would just be arrogant. We can formulate our own hypotheses and theses, but we have to remember that's all they are: ideas - unprovable notions about what the Universe and even other dimensions may contain.

Indeed that explains it. A lot, if not all religions apply the concept of faith - being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. People who always seek answers and proofs would no doubt find this difficult to understand, more so to live out.

It's amazing how faith was employed even by the characters in Tolkien's books. Gandalf, for one, is a great example. He was made weaker than he really is, then was sent to an unfamiliar place to help its people. No doubt he could not see how everything will end, yet as Eru through the Valar has decreed that he be sent to Middle Earth, so he went, though he deemed himself inadequate for the job. He met a lot of discouragement and despair as he went around, but he held on and toiled knowing that the quest he was sent for would be fulfilled. In contrast, look at how the other four Wizards digressed.

Thanks for that, lmp.

[Thinlómien]

Hah.. Hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings but you shold see my LotR fan+teen-angst-anti-christian friends in a church. They modify every prayer and every religious song into some kind of Ilúvatar-religions -thing. And in a christian confirmation camp my friend intended to say to the priest that she can't pray the God because she believes in Eru. So that's sometimes funny but a bit ridiculous. My conclusion's that no one really believes in Eru, but people might consider it as a nice joke or some fanatical fans might be gone too far...

[solarisa]

dude!!! to dig up an elfs bones!!! i would scream if it really happened...and after than, make up millions of theories, etc, etc, etc, etc.... .... ...

[solarisa]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hah.. Hope this doesn't hurt anyone's feelings but you shold see my LotR fan+teen-angst-anti-christian friends in a church. They modify every prayer and every religious song into some kind of Ilúvatar-religions -thing. And in a christian confirmation camp my friend intended to say to the priest that she can't pray the God because she believes in Eru. So that's sometimes funny but a bit ridiculous. My conclusion's that no one really believes in Eru, but people might consider it as a nice joke or some fanatical fans might be gone too far...

no way!! haha believing in eru is like scanning through lotr or the sil, of tolkiens work, of a plain and simple bookwriter, of 30 (or some) yrs ago!!!

*i believe that tolkien didn't focus much on the "religion" part of it, just wanted to give a reasonable (and no other way) explanation how he made all his creatures into story--for those in-depth, philosophical, "i'm your #1 fan" people (you all).