Shadows of former glory

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

The LOTR is obviously a much more toned down (in terms of power & might) version of the elder days of the Silmarillion. I've found some very interesting similarities.

For instance, in the elder days (1st age), Luthien & Beren were confronted by Carcaroth & Luthien was somehow posessed by some native strength & commanded the beast to slumber. And then In the 3rd age, Sam subconsciously murmured some elvish lingo that caused the lady's star-glass to burst into bright white fire damaging Shelob, and like Luthien, he used it to break the will of watchers of Cirith Ungol. Talk about identical situations.

Another example is the silmarils making a semi comeback. As I said I the Luthien vs Galadriel thread (& Tolkien), Galadriel was somewhat the equal of Feanor so it was totally fitting that she alone of the elves was able to replicate the light of the Silmarills through creating the star-glass which btw did not lose its "magic light" (though its power was subdued at the heart of the realm of Sauron) even after her ring lost its powers.

And then of course you have Arwen described as having the likeness of Luthien, although she seemed more regretful & bitter in her death bed. And let's not forget the eagles.

[daeron]

Hmm... The light of the star Earendil is that from the Silmaril upon his brow. So one can wonder if the trapped light is the 'Galadriel version' of a Silmaril. Though one must agree that the phial given to Frodo is a very diminished version of the Silmaril.
"We are in the same story after all. The tales never end. Only people come and go as thier parts are over."
Did she have the ability to make the Silmarils herself? I think not. Feanor was unique.Otherwise the two trees themselves would have been regrown.

As to LoTR being a smaller version of the Silm, I don't think so. Silm is a grand tale of 500years. There are many parts in it. Tolkien threw everything at it. There are boind to be cases which seem similar. LoTR is a totally different style of work. It covers just one year. Instances seem similar to Silm because there are so many things happening in Silm. As to the Eagles, they are the descendents of Thorondor and the eldest ones. Tolkien could not obviously leave them out of his tale, could not kill them all out at the end of the first age. Questions will pop up if they are absent. As to Arwen, all lines from the first age continued. So it would be natural to marry them again.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

For instance, in the elder days (1st age), Luthien & Beren were confronted by Carcaroth & Luthien was somehow posessed by some native strength & commanded the beast to slumber. And then In the 3rd age, Sam subconsciously murmured some elvish lingo that caused the lady's star-glass to burst into bright white fire damaging Shelob, and like Luthien, he used it to break the will of watchers of Cirith Ungol. Talk about identical situations.

You have a few similarities there, but not much I don't think. In both, the presumably weaker of the two defeats great evil, but that's it. Lúthien's power was her own, and Sam had to have help from Galadriel.

Another example is the silmarils making a semi comeback. As I said I the Luthien vs Galadriel thread (& Tolkien), Galadriel was somewhat the equal of Feanor so it was totally fitting that she alone of the elves was able to replicate the light of the Silmarills through creating the star-glass which btw did not lose its "magic light" (though its power was subdued at the heart of the realm of Sauron) even after her ring lost its powers.

Huh, I didn't know the Phial still worked after the Three deminished. I don't think it's so much that she replicated the light of the Silmarils, but that she caught it. Eärendil shone in her mirror and with the use of Nenya, Galadriel caught some of that light's power in the water that she put in the Phial.

And then of course you have Arwen described as having the likeness of Luthien, although she seemed more regretful & bitter in her death bed.

This theme of elf maiden falling for human lord seems to have been inportant to Tolkien. I think he purposely made that connection between Lúthien and Beren and Arwen and Aragorn; it shows the reader that some bit of the Elves is still in humanity.

And let's not forget the eagles.

Oh no, because if we did that, Manwë would get mad at us. The Eagles are Manwë's servants. This is why they always seem to be saving the day at the very last moment. The Valar don't want to get involved unless they absolutely have to (because they don't know much about the nature of the Elves and even less of Men, not their Theme of the Ainulindalië).

One reason why LotR is less grand than Silm is because Tolkien was trying to show how we're declining through the Ages.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

The LOTR is obviously a much more toned down (in terms of power & might) version of the elder days of the Silmarillion. .

"obviously" not to every one. It seems to me that this statement requires a definition or explanation of "power and might", as well as "much more toned down."

There are many readers who would, I suspect, say that LotR is the more powerful piece of writing, the more enchanting form of the perilous realm. Because for many The Silm reads more like an encyclopedia than modern narrative, it is a whiter shade of pale.

I suppose, though, that this is just another version of those "who is the most powerful wack and slasher" in Middle-earth threads. Vive la difference.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

On the one hand, Silmarillion will always be "greater" than LOTR, because everything is bigger, more powerful, one might say more perilous.

But on the other hand, I would say that LOTR is "greater" than the Silmarillion. It has one key ingredient missing in the History of the Silmarils: hobbits. Let's face it: without hobbits LOTR really is just a weaker version of the Silmarillion. But it's not the Wise and the Great that begin and complete the Quest of the Ring (though they certainly give it aid): it's Frodo and Samwise. The reader cannot identify with Feanor, Maedhros, Fingon, Luthien, Beren, Turin, etc., but he can identify with Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin.

Someone else can continue this argument, I'm certain; I'll leave it for the time being.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Another example is the silmarils making a semi comeback. As I said I the Luthien vs Galadriel thread (& Tolkien), Galadriel was somewhat the equal of Feanor so it was totally fitting that she alone of the elves was able to replicate the light of the Silmarills through creating the star-glass which btw did not lose its "magic light" (though its power was subdued at the heart of the realm of Sauron) even after her ring lost its powers.

I wonder...

I doubt if Galadriel was the ONLY one who could have put the light of Earendil's star in a vial, she is simply the only one we know who actually does it. No mention is made of it being a spectacular feat- for all we know, Cirdan, Elrond, or old Thranduil could have done it- had they thought to. After all, Galadriel is never associated with great feats of making, as Celebrimbor and Feanor were, in spite of having been the Queen of Eregion according to one history. No, her genius was in seeing a reason to do so, rather than any special power, I would say.

But in general, the Lord of the Rings naturally imitates the Silmarillion at times. Both were written by the same author, and both were epics of great length. Some similarities are to be expected.

[davem]

Fractals again.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Huh, I didn't know the Phial still worked after the Three deminished.

Yes, at their parting at the Grey Havens:

"...and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost."
The Return of the King VI 9
The Grey Havens

I wonder...

I doubt if Galadriel was the ONLY one who could have put the light of Earendil's star in a vial, she is simply the only one we know who actually does it. No mention is made of it being a spectacular feat- for all we know, Cirdan, Elrond, or old Thranduil could have done it- had they thought to. After all, Galadriel is never associated with great feats of making, as Celebrimbor and Feanor were, in spite of having been the Queen of Eregion according to one history. No, her genius was in seeing a reason to do so, rather than any special power, I would say.

I suppose none of them could've done it. Maybe it had something to do with being a Calaquendi, her being closest to Feanor in stature (as what tolkien sugested) , a pupil of Aule & Yavanna, & Nenya, the ring of water in her posession & the kind of sharp wisdom she had.

The Eagles are Manwë's servants. This is why they always seem to be saving the day at the very last moment. The Valar don't want to get involved unless they absolutely have to (because they don't know much about the nature of the Elves and even less of Men, not their Theme of the Ainulindalië).

Are these eagles immortal & of a semi-maian race?