Elvish Reproduction

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Great warg-Twins were extremely rare. I can think of two Elvish twins-Amrod and Amras and Elladan and Elrohir.

[Lalaith]

Ahem. And, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, Elros and Elrond.

[Ultimatejoe]

You guys are forgetting about Elwing's brothers, Elured and Elurin.

[Airehiriel]

Since we are on the topic of reproduction and the like, I have a question. Do you think Elves, being as dignified and refined as they are, had sex for bonding and/or recreation, or just for reproductive purposes?

I am asking this seriously, not to be perverted.

[The-Elf-Herself]

http://imladris.elendor.net/background4c.html

Go here and it should answer your questions.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Elros and Elrond weren't twins,well at least I have never read a canolonical statement that they were twins.

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

As far as I know, Amrod and Amras are the only FULLY Elven twins mentioned.

[Lalaith]

Elros and Elrond were both born in First Age 532.

[The Saucepan Man]

Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and desire were not satisfied; but with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things.

So, Celeborn was Celebate. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lalaith]

Thanks to the Elf-Herself for that link. It was really interesting.

[Raefindel]

The-Elf-Herself, I would also like to thank you for that link. It is indeed very interesting.

[littlemanpoet]

My initial reaction to this topic was as strong and nameless as Tarthang's. But I think what he may have been getting at was that this kind of topic, whereas certainly within the realms of the discussable, tends to demythologize Middle Earth. As far as it does so, it pulls it down from its lofty heights to mundane speculation. Those who enjoy such endeavors, of course, continue. But to suggest that someone who does not care for this topic, is prudish, is not helpful.

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Possibly, as silqeleni suggested, the onset of fertility is triggered by impending marriage. Does anyone know of Elvish children born out of wedlock?

Good point, TSM, but not the one you were bringing out. For Elves, the actual marriage ceremony amounted to a hill of beans as to rather two Elves were considered married or not. It was the *ahem* "union" *ahem* (to use the Professer's own word) that legally bound and wed two Elves. In body as well as spirit -- they became unified in a way that humans, by and large, do not. Divorce was not only unheard of, it was unthinkable -- like cutting off your own hand, physically you can do it, but who in their right mind wants to?

So, perhaps the actual "act" triggers female reproduction to kick in? It certainly makes some changes to the modern-day human female body, why not the Elvish one? And, like human females, perhaps Elves only have but so many eggs, and when they're gone they're gone, hence having children early in the marriage, and only having a few. (although, that goes back to the "Elves mensturating" theory).

I can provide links, for anyone whose interested.

[Thinlómien]

Also, does it seem that there are always more Elf males being born? Feanor has no daughters, for example, and Galadriel was the only daughter. Can we safely assume that female Elves tend to give birth to more males than females?

I don't think so. Having a lot of sons (and maybe one daughter) is just usual stuff of legends and tales. Maybe we shouldn't think the "gender-balance" with the lords of eldar as an good example of elvish "gender-balance" but just parts of the story.
The non-famous elves had all the daughters...

And about yhe menstruation: from all your "conclusions" maybe once a year in a period of 100-300 years after getting married?

[Ainaserkewen]

Or maybe famour Elves did have daughters but they were written away like in the Bible.

[Thinlómien]

Maybe, since many of the elf-lords' wives/mothers aren't mentioned anywhere. For example, who was the wife of Fingolfin? Or Orodreth? Or Fingon? This is one of the really few things that make me irritated with Tolkien.

[Lalwendë]

I think the question of why Elves did not have very large families could be answered by considering that as they are immortal, if they continued having children throughout their lives, the Elven population would simply be too large and unsustainable. Perhaps the Elves knew this, and with their love of the natural environment might also have realised what a strain on resources that would become, as in our own world.

In Morgoth's Ring I believe it also states that once an Elven couple had completed their family, the main joy that they had from marriage was companionship:

with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things. The union of love is indeed to them great delight and joy, and the 'days of the children', as they call them, remain in their memory as the most merry in life; but they have many other powers of body and of mind which their nature urges them to fulfil.

and

It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at anytime in the ages of their lives. But this is not so.For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly; the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also. Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent. As the weoght of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change.

Also, in times of war Elves endeavoured not to have children, indeed, not to marry, and the history of Middle Earth is peppered with conflict which might reduce the potential population.

So with such considerations, it might be expected that Elven bodies are also made a lot differently to human bodies.

[Mithalwen]

As a foot note to Lalwende's post, as well as immortality making having children less of a biological imperative, in Morgoth's ring it also points out that the Eldar pass more of their own strength into their children and so they were not able to have unlimited children from that point of you. The extreme example of this is Feanor who took so much strength from Miriel that she chose death - having pointed out to Finwe that the strength enought for many sons had been passed into Feanor ... who himself had more children than any other elf (7). No wonder Nerdanel chose to remain in Valinor

The largest elf families we know of are all in those early generations when the Elves were in the fullness of their strength.

I wonder if part of the reason that Celebrian did not fully recover from her orcish torment is because she had been weakened by having three children at presumably a fairly late age (relatively) - the Laws and Customs of the Eldar state that elves tended to marry soon after reaching maturity (age 50-100) and have their families soon after (in elvish terms.... ).

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And about yhe menstruation: from all your "conclusions" maybe once a year in a period of 100-300 years after getting married?

Once a year was about what I was thinking, too, Thinlómien! Especially when I read something (can't remember where! Gah!) that said that Elves are only fertile in the Spring. So, maybe one 'cycle'? Doesn't have to be a month long -- can be two or three! Gestation is a year, so the baby is born the following spring.