Did the Evenstar break? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Assasin · 04-13-2005, 04:27 PM

In the Return of the King extended edition, when Aragorn tries looking into the palantir, the Evenstar breaks, and then reapears in the next scene. I know PJ would not have made a mistake like that, so I ask, what's the point?

Dûrbelethwen · 04-13-2005, 05:39 PM

I was not sure about that either. It seemed that maybe it was a vision like in his dream eariler in the movie. You said that Aragorn was wearing the Evenstar in the next scene, but I thought the whole purpose of the scene showing Aragorn ride away was to show that he nolonger had it.

The Only Real Estel · 04-13-2005, 06:11 PM

It might have just been a vision, but if it was supposed to be a scene that happened in 'real life', I would not be suprised if PJ had slipped up. Given the massive amount of material he had to deal with, I wouldn't be suprised at all if he shot Aragorn wearing it, then inserted the scene in the EE without bothering/remembering to edit it out in the coming scenes. Or than again Aragorn might not even have it after that scene, I know I can't swear either way.

Kath · 04-14-2005, 10:08 AM

I'm not so sure that he would have left it in if the idea was that it had been broken as they were pretty good at catching those. For example in the scene at the Grey Havens where Sean Astin forgot to put his waistcoat back on after a break they reshot it to make sure it was continuous.

I think that is just a vision shown to him by Sauron, as there do seem to be a few of those involving Aragorn and Arwen in the film so it fits.

The Only Real Estel · 04-14-2005, 10:24 AM

Quote:

For example in the scene at the Grey Havens where Sean Astin forgot to put his waistcoat back on after a break they reshot it to make sure it was continuous.

True, although if you look closely (I think it's the last shot of Sam watching the boat leave while Merry & Pippin are crying in the background) you'll see that they did leave in a shot of a vest-less Sam. But on the whole they're pretty good about those things.

Kath · 04-14-2005, 10:27 AM

For managing only the odd mistake out of 3 huge films I think they did pretty well!
But I'm just here again because of something Assasin said right at the beginning. I thought that they focused on Aragorns chest and that demonstrated that the pendant wasn't there, ot am I missing something?

tar-ancalime · 04-14-2005, 10:32 AM

Not to complicate matters, but when Arwen has the vision of her son, she sees him wearing it.

Dûrbelethwen · 04-14-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tar-ancalime

Not to complicate matters, but when Arwen has the vision of her son, she sees him wearing it.

It may only be a symbol of that the boy is a part of her.

Kath · 04-14-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Not to complicate matters, but when Arwen has the vision of her son, she sees him wearing it.

Isn't that before Aragorns vision?

Encaitare · 04-14-2005, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Isn't that before Aragorns vision?

Yes, but if Eldarion is really wearing it (and it's not just symbolic like Dûrbelethwen suggested) then that would mean it did not break and was still around when he was born.

Kath · 04-14-2005, 01:58 PM

Oh Ok I see - but then surely that reinforces the idea that what Aragorn saw wasn't real, as it seems to be a continuing theme.

Also, didn't he have a dream in TTT where it broke?

Assasin · 04-14-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Kath

oen't he have a dream in TTT were it broke?

Yes, but I think that was a dream of the future when the Evenstar "broke" in RotK.

Celebuial · 04-15-2005, 03:24 AM

I know for sure that they showed Aragorn wasn't wearing the Evenstar for sure, as me and my mates checked every scene after for a glimpse of it.

To me it doesn't make sense. Firstly it should've been given to Frodo. Anyhoo, it appears to be used through the film as a sign of Arwens 'immortality', so the breaking should signify her choice of staying with Aragorn. However Elrond says: "The Evenstar grows dim" (sorry not sure where/when); which implies that it represents her health as she is becoming ill at this time. Unless of course he was just calling her Evenstar. It is also used to show the future of their relationship, but then the breaking really doesn't make sense. Anyway, it's all too confusing and I don't understand why P-j thought it necessary to add.

It makes no sense what so ever, and I think the only way to find out what it's all about would be to ask the man himself.

Edit: What if it signifies Aragorns loss of hope? Or maybe his loss of confidance in himself and his ability to lead, or win the battles ahead of him?

Kath · 04-15-2005, 03:41 AM

Ok but if we are then thinking that it really did break (as would seem to be the conclusion reached by Celebuial's religious watching of RotK!) then maybe Aragorn's earlier dream of it breaking was a sort of vision of the future?

Nimrodel_9 · 04-15-2005, 11:09 AM

Arwen is the Evenstar. The necklace is the Evenstar Pendant.

Quote:

Not to complicate matters, but when Arwen has the vision of her son, she sees him wearing it.

They made a new one?

Quote:

It may only be a symbol of that the boy is a part of her.

That works, too.

Just wondering, but did anyone notice that in the book the necklace Arwen gave Frodo is described a lot like the Evenstar Pendant looks in the movie?

Nim

Kath · 04-15-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Just wondering, but did anyone notice that in the book the necklace Arwen gave Frodo is described a lot like the Evenstar Pendant looks in the movie?

Yes I did notice that. I thought that maybe PJ had one of his "lets give this a huge part in the films" like he did with Arwen but that this time it pretty much worked, at least it stopped Arwen appearing every 2 seconds as it could be used to show that Aragorn was thinking about her.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 04-15-2005, 01:11 PM

I thought it was a terrible part of a scene. Up there with The Avalanche of Skulls for ridiculousness.

Assasin · 04-16-2005, 08:08 PM

In scene 64 of RotK extended Aragorn is wearing the Evenstar, even though he was not in the riding away scene.

Celebuial · 04-20-2005, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assasin

In scene 64 of RotK extended Aragorn is wearing the Evenstar, even though he was not in the riding away scene.

Are you sure??? I'm sure he's not, but I'll re-check as soon as I get home!

Quote:

Just wondering, but did anyone notice that in the book the necklace Arwen gave Frodo is described a lot like the Evenstar Pendant looks in the movie?

Yeah:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

To me it doesn't make sense. Firstly it should've been given to Frodo. Anyhoo...

The only conclusion we can come to with Eldarion wearing the necklace is, I think, to say that it just shows that this is indeed her son. However this just confused me because I was awear that Frodo was given the necklace, so I really didn't (and still don't) get it at all. I just think that no-matter how much P-j claims to love/know Tolkien, sometimes he misses things or think's that somethings don't matter(or won't matter if changed). Obviously you can see the confusion this causes when it does indeed matter.

Celebuial · 04-21-2005, 05:42 AM

Ok you were right, Assasin: I watched last night and it's clearly on view. Now this certainly confuses matters. How can you try to interpret something if you don't know whether it has happened or will happen or is just a vision which means nothing? I have no idea how to proceed... I think P-j has probably confused himself. He must have done if he's confused all of us so much.

Edit: What if it's supposed to show Sauron breaking Aragorns hope?

Assasin · 04-21-2005, 06:33 PM

I don't know. Sauron could have made it a part of the vision, and made Aragorn think it was real. That part of the scene did seem less "real" then the rest.

Kath · 04-22-2005, 11:15 AM

But if the vision was just a vision and it wasn't supposed to be broken why did the camera focus in on Aragorn's chest in the next scene? I agree with Celebuial's idea that Jackson confused even himself as there seems to be no logical explanation for all these scenes.

04-13-2005, 04:27 PM	#1
Assasin Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a desert. Posts: 142	Did the Evenstar break? In the Return of the King extended edition, when Aragorn tries looking into the palantir, the Evenstar breaks, and then reapears in the next scene. I know PJ would not have made a mistake like that, so I ask, what's the point? __________________ Death is as light as a feather, duty is as heavy as a mountain.

04-14-2005, 10:08 AM	#4
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	I'm not so sure that he would have left it in if the idea was that it had been broken as they were pretty good at catching those. For example in the scene at the Grey Havens where Sean Astin forgot to put his waistcoat back on after a break they reshot it to make sure it was continuous. I think that is just a vision shown to him by Sauron, as there do seem to be a few of those involving Aragorn and Arwen in the film so it fits. __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

04-14-2005, 10:27 AM	#6
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	For managing only the odd mistake out of 3 huge films I think they did pretty well! But I'm just here again because of something Assasin said right at the beginning. I thought that they focused on Aragorns chest and that demonstrated that the pendant wasn't there, ot am I missing something? __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

04-14-2005, 10:32 AM	#7
tar-ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abaft the beam Posts: 303	Not to complicate matters, but when Arwen has the vision of her son, she sees him wearing it. __________________ Having fun wolfing it to the bitter end, I see, gaur-ancalime (lmp, ww13)

04-14-2005, 01:58 PM	#11
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	Oh Ok I see - but then surely that reinforces the idea that what Aragorn saw wasn't real, as it seems to be a continuing theme. Also, didn't he have a dream in TTT where it broke? __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

04-13-2005, 05:39 PM	#2
Dûrbelethwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 80	I was not sure about that either. It seemed that maybe it was a vision like in his dream eariler in the movie. You said that Aragorn was wearing the Evenstar in the next scene, but I thought the whole purpose of the scene showing Aragorn ride away was to show that he nolonger had it.

04-13-2005, 06:11 PM	#3
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	It might have just been a vision, but if it was supposed to be a scene that happened in 'real life', I would not be suprised if PJ had slipped up. Given the massive amount of material he had to deal with, I wouldn't be suprised at all if he shot Aragorn wearing it, then inserted the scene in the EE without bothering/remembering to edit it out in the coming scenes. Or than again Aragorn might not even have it after that scene, I know I can't swear either way.

04-15-2005, 03:24 AM	#13
Celebuial Wight Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cardiff during term time/Leicester in the holl's Posts: 129	I know for sure that they showed Aragorn wasn't wearing the Evenstar for sure, as me and my mates checked every scene after for a glimpse of it. To me it doesn't make sense. Firstly it should've been given to Frodo. Anyhoo, it appears to be used through the film as a sign of Arwens 'immortality', so the breaking should signify her choice of staying with Aragorn. However Elrond says: "The Evenstar grows dim" (sorry not sure where/when); which implies that it represents her health as she is becoming ill at this time. Unless of course he was just calling her Evenstar. It is also used to show the future of their relationship, but then the breaking really doesn't make sense. Anyway, it's all too confusing and I don't understand why P-j thought it necessary to add. It makes no sense what so ever, and I think the only way to find out what it's all about would be to ask the man himself. Edit: What if it signifies Aragorns loss of hope? Or maybe his loss of confidance in himself and his ability to lead, or win the battles ahead of him? __________________ Ú cilith ‘war. Ú men ‘war. Boe min mebi. Boe min bango. Last edited by Celebuial; 04-15-2005 at 03:25 AM. Reason: I just had an epithany!!!

04-15-2005, 03:41 AM	#14
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	Ok but if we are then thinking that it really did break (as would seem to be the conclusion reached by Celebuial's religious watching of RotK!) then maybe Aragorn's earlier dream of it breaking was a sort of vision of the future? __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

04-15-2005, 01:11 PM	#17
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I thought it was a terrible part of a scene. Up there with The Avalanche of Skulls for ridiculousness. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

04-16-2005, 08:08 PM	#18
Assasin Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a desert. Posts: 142	Scene 64, The Mouth of Sauron In scene 64 of RotK extended Aragorn is wearing the Evenstar, even though he was not in the riding away scene. __________________ Death is as light as a feather, duty is as heavy as a mountain.

04-21-2005, 05:42 AM	#20
Celebuial Wight Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cardiff during term time/Leicester in the holl's Posts: 129	Ok you were right, Assasin: I watched last night and it's clearly on view. Now this certainly confuses matters. How can you try to interpret something if you don't know whether it has happened or will happen or is just a vision which means nothing? I have no idea how to proceed... I think P-j has probably confused himself. He must have done if he's confused all of us so much. Edit: What if it's supposed to show Sauron breaking Aragorns hope? __________________ Ú cilith ‘war. Ú men ‘war. Boe min mebi. Boe min bango. Last edited by Celebuial; 04-21-2005 at 05:46 AM. Reason: I had yet another epithany!

04-21-2005, 06:33 PM	#21
Assasin Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a desert. Posts: 142	I don't know. Sauron could have made it a part of the vision, and made Aragorn think it was real. That part of the scene did seem less "real" then the rest. __________________ Death is as light as a feather, duty is as heavy as a mountain.

04-22-2005, 11:15 AM	#22
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	But if the vision was just a vision and it wasn't supposed to be broken why did the camera focus in on Aragorn's chest in the next scene? I agree with Celebuial's idea that Jackson confused even himself as there seems to be no logical explanation for all these scenes. __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

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