Destruction

[JenFramp]

I’ve just been sitting here and thinking about Sauron, Morgoth and some other stuff and I think I might have struck upon one of the underlying themes of the series of tales.

As you probably know JRR felt strongly about issues of technological change and the growth of what we’ve come to look at as the modern world, we can see it most simply in Sandyman joining forces with Saruman when he came to the Shire and helping him chop down loads of tress.

But I’d be inclined to say that demonising technological progress was not really what he was trying to get at. I’d also like to highlight a few characters in whom the real thrust of his thought is embodied: Saruman, Melkor and Sauron, and Aulë.

The theme I’m trying to look at runs through all of them, firstly Saruman, Curunír, the Man of Skill. Originally the head of the coucil he was a craftsmen, in such a position he thouhgt he could best defeat Sauron by studying his arts - he was subsequently seduced by their power and turned to the darkside (to coin a term) yet still in the begining he had been head of the Istari as Gandalf admits.

Secondly both Sauron as a Maiar (one of the greatest) of Aulë and Melkor (who was said to be "most like Aulë in the begining" in the Valaquenta) were, like Aulë craftsmen and creators. Yet it was these two, and indeed because of their skills, that became the most evil of all things, corrupted by their envy of Eru the true creator of all things. Despite this turning, it was Melkor who was singled out as the most powerful of all the Valar (it taking all of them together to beat him).

Finally of all the Valar (putting aside Melkor) Aulë was the only one to rebel, if only in a well meaning way, against Eru (in fact he rebelled in exactly the same way as I think Melkor might have if he had not grown so envios). The creators nature given to him had made him prone to ill. And yet, Aulë was to have the greatest role in the creation of Eä.

So then it seems Tolkien is trying tosuggest it is those of an craftsman like, innovative and creative nature who are oft the most powerful. Yet at the same time they are the most at risk to straying from the path of right and falling into evil. Furthermore, in light of this perhpas JRR suggests that while such natures are the most powerful they might not always lead - for though Melkor was the greatest Ainur, Manwë was the chief of the Valar (for he was wise ’knowing most the mind of Eru’), and though Saruman was the mightiest of the Istari, eventually Gandalf was the head of the council (again as the wisest) and led them to victory over Sauron.

Well that’s just what I think, ladies and gentlemen you thoughts please...

[-Imrahil-]

The three "craftsmen" you mentioned Aulë, Saruman, and Sauron strayed from the path of light. Aulë not so much, and Sauron had already pledged allegience to Melkor because of his greed. But Saruman, Saruman was the one who had good intentions perhaps at first, but as JenFramp said was corrupted by his greed for the invention and creation of things of power. He created things in his own, weaker way (in mockery of Sauron).

I also thing JenFramp has a great point about technology. Tolkien saw it as a destructive force that was changing this world, in his view, for the worse. And indeed, look at this world now, while it is true technology has helped this world and it's people in many ways it is also true that it is destroying it, and soon, if we aren't careful, will destroy it. Technology is the cause of great things, but it also causes horrible things. Tolkien is trying to get at the horrible things it does, when he shows Saruman's work on the Shire.

[thorondil]

Tolkien's take on technology seems to be the theme in many a thread, and for good reason. I was very interested to learn that Tolkien thought the internal combustion engine to be the greatest evil ever visited on mankind. All of Eru's creations, who try to improve in some way on the Creation, seem to meet with some kind of evil. They wish in their own way to become God or usurp the providence of God by manipulating or changing, or in their own minds, improving on the Creation, and often end up embroiled in evil, or intentionally or unintentionally causing evil. The manipulation of the universe to suit one's own ends is a tricky business, and beyond fire and shelter and the basic necessities of life, one often begins to pervert or subvert the essence of Nature, and the purity of Good, and begins to try like Aule, to imitate in a less than perfect, slightly askew way the meaning that God put into the Universe.

[Diamond18]

There's nothing wrong with technology in and of itself. It's all about how you use it. God didn't give us creative natures for nothing, so I don't think that making lesser imitations of nature is so terrible. After all, Tolkien described his stories as sub-creations. Lesser versions of the story that is "real life".

So while technology can be and is used for bad, it's just plain silly to call technology evil. Death, destruction and woe have been around almost forever, which is long before the internal combustion engine. Yes, things like atomic bombs are curses and should never have been invented...but would a person being rushed to the hospital in an ambulance curse the engine that runs the vehicle?

Everything always comes right back to the souls of Men (or Elves or Maiar or Valar or what-have-you). Scapegoating machines is erroneous. Cain didn't need an automatic rifle to kill Abel...his own hands worked just fine.

Anyway, that reads like a little sermon, I know... But anyway I'm just saying that I disagree about who is most prone to evil. I think it is the ignorant and uninformed who fall into darkness more easily. I know that isn't the way it was in Tolkien's world...but it is in our world. All the really evil people have their minions, their ignorant masses. Hitler brainwashed the youth to think his way. Osama Bin Laden didn't fly any planes into the World Trade Center, he got other people to do it for him.

And when you think about it...that is like Tolkien's world, in a sense. The strengths of these "bad guys" lay in their minions...their mindless hosts who have no will of their own and knew only the will of their master. It's always the Orcs and Uruk-hai the heroes must face.

I'm sorry if this has become a ramble... To sum it all up: One powerful man with a host of ignorant men at his command is a lot more dangerous than one powerful man with a new-fangled machine.

[lindil]

Diamond 18 posted

There's nothing wrong with technology in and of itself. It's all about how you use it.

Yes however, once someone mass markets one of these 'neutral' bits of techno, it spreads like lice through our sheepish society.

As a culture we have proven time and again, that we are susceptable to short-sightedness and willingness to dive our cars even as cities like LA and Mexico City become totally poisonous. And that of course is one small item out of hundred's of thousands.

So, while any given item may be theoretically neutral, in reality, we are most certainly pitiful victims of the technology we create.

Also JRRT was a Christian, who undoubtedly took the Book of Revelation seriously. It clearly shows Babylon [some kind of mega -trading/business conglomerate]falling and all of the world weeping and gnashing their teeth.

He viewed society as inevitably heading towards subservience and domination by Antichrist. So we can very profitabbly see THe Silm and LotR as lessons in rebelling against Demonic overlords.

We are even now I think in the grip not of a 'terrorist war' so much as sleeping victims of an invisible Saruman, whose countless gadgets and seeming to be a good guy have nearly everyone fooled.

[HerenIstarion]

I remember reading som shor novel by (Bradbury? Vonnegut? anyone else? Well, that's not essential) about a guy smuggling a wooden stool in subway, for the law prohibits production (and use) of things that can last more than few days The law is enforced by advertising companies. We by and by are heading towards such a society (why should my PC be out of date, whem I upgraded the insides this spring only? see the point?) The stream of our lives runs faster as time goes by, and there aro no elven rings left to preserve, but "beat of hammers, clink of trowels, and the creak of wheels" only.

Not that I am not grateful for such a wondrous thing as internet is, and there are other things both profitable and more or less harmless, but consequences... I don't remember exact quote, but Lewis once said something like "When humanity wins final battle against nature, it will lose ultimately, for there will be no humanity left" He applied the thing to growing control of selected minority over forming of mentality and outlook of the rest of us. He said it back in 40s, but now, with all this cloning experiments and what not the whole thing looks even dreader. Scientists sometimes sound like if they were talking about furniture they are going to produce, not about human beings. But such a topic can take me way to far. So I'm stopping here, til the thing is still more or less related to Tolkien (who disliked so called "modernity" AFAIK)

[-Imrahil-]

Diamond I agree with you but I must say this: While technology can be good if it is used properly it is still a destructive force. Technology has enabled this world's population's to grow and grow (better methods of farming, machines for harvesting, increased food production). With this huge population we burn oil (ozone depletion, global warming), forests are being destroyed for all the houses that must be built.Without technology nature would naturally limit the amount of people living on this earth. By using technology we have increased the amount of people this earth can support, and the amount is simply too much.

This argument and be flipped either way, just wanted to share my thoughts. I don't think there's one 'correct' answer to this.

[Konarmi]

I don't think he was against change per se. He just didn't want traditions to vanish.
Elvish was a language. It's rarely spoken now.