the Sacred Feminine

[yavanna II]

ok, I got this idea from Dan Brown... blah blah blah. Magdalane was the "wife" of Christ blah blah blah.
Enough about that.
I just got this question: is there really a sacred feminine? I mean, in the books. Luthien in my opinion nearly made it, but she's a half-divine being. Galadriel, however, isn't a Maia, so I really have no idea.

Luthien: A daughter o f a Maia, rescued her boyfriend from the 'fires of hell', died of despair, pitied by a Vala, married a mortal, had a child, died and never returned. And add the fact she touched and possessed a Silmaril. Also she shared the fate of men.

Galadriel: A granddaughter of Noldoli nobles, an activist and only female leader in the Revolution of the Noldor (as I love calling the time after the Darkening of Valinor), lived in Beleriand, married a local Elf, survived the Downfall. Then she moved to the East, became the Lady of Lorien, an anti-Sauron, the only Wise who wanted Gandalf head of the White Council, gave the Fellowship shelter, and of course, resisted the Ring.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ah, Danny boy... what a guy.

Now in my thoughts, Middle Earth DID have a sacred feminine. Several, in fact. Yavanna, Nienna, Varda... etcetera. See what I mean? The Elves particularly loved and "worshiped" Elbereth, as seen when they sing to her, or call on her aid in despair. The Valar are so great when it comes to equal rights... I mean, Eru is a "He", but only in terms of the universal pronoun. He isn't really anything, but he is, you know? But the Valar... they've got equal numbers of "men" and "women". They are worshipped equally. Manwe is the most powerful, I suppose, but the Varda is probably the most loved. I suppose the Middle Earth Priory of Scion would be the Elves, loving and preserving the memory (if not the bloodlines) of their revered lady of light.

[THE Ka]

Okay, this has to be quick because, I have to leave soon...(I'll finish it later! I'll be back)


Well, you do have a point. I've had similar thoughts about this. I've seen Eru as what is called the 'omnipotent power'... Basically, the original life force in the beginnning that after creating cosmos, ect. decides to further improve upon this. Then, if you remember, Eru made the valar and other forces from his thought. Another way to see this is that, all feminine powers or aspects, represent that sacred, and all masculine aspects, represent another sacred. It is common of cultures to do this, since one force can have many different attributes...

( Will finish up later.)

~Hurrying to school ka~

[Lalaith]

Yavanna, a question - do you mean something specific by the "sacred feminine"? Is this something to do with the Da Vinci Code?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

do you mean something specific by the "sacred feminine"?

In the holy trinity, there is already a sacred masculine. The father, the son, and the holy spirit. From what I remember, the sacred feminine fits in there somewhere to even it out. I just... can't... remember... where. The basic point is that in general, the masculine is worshipped. The sacred feminine, as far as I can remember, is the balancing force in holy terms.

Fea [who needs to reread the copy of The Da Vinci Code that's sitting on her table]

[Essex]

off at a tangent, and yes I should visit a dan brown board, but I feel sorry for the guys who wrote the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail 15 odd years ago, who no doubt Dan Brown borrowed from to make millions!

PS yes, I have read dan brown's book. It's ok, but I thought Angels and Demons was much better pulp fiction.

Back to the question, I would not cast ANY female Elf as a Sacred Feminine, but that's because I see the Elves as FAR from perfect to say the least.

[Ainaserkewen]

Despite what any new books might tell you, the sacred feminine in terms of Christianity is the Church. The Church is the bride of Christ. I know, it's a little abstract, and no one wants me to go into great philosophical detail. It's basically why a priest can't get married.

I agree with Feanor of the Peredhil about the devine females in Arda. Especially Elbereth for the Elves who love her so.

[Neithan]

I think that both the feminine and the masculine were just different parts of Eru's mind, which I think is part of what Ka was getting at.
Just a note on feminine roles in mythology, the very first primitive civilizations often worshiped women figures (often times a women leader of the tribe) for fertility. Women are the symbol of fertility so from this came the concept of "Mother Earth". In those times these mother figures were the most important in mythology because people needed crops to survive. Later mythology was largely taken over by men (in Greek mythology mother earth's husband and later her male children gain power over her, this was probably the Greek's way of shifting from the female dominated religion to a male dominated one). In most mythologies there was still a remnent of that "mother figure" representing fertility (Demeter). In Tolkiens mythology Yavanna seems to fill this role. Of course that is not the only role in mythology for women, but it is the one role that is almost always played by a women.

[Lalaith]

Well, my own studies in this area have chiefly involved things like Robert Graves' the White Goddess (which while a bit bonkers is still very interesting stuff), I've not read this new-fangled da Vinci stuff.
But I think I understand what's being discussed now, and I think we've touched on this theme before, here:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11149

[Formendacil]

There is no exactly "sacred feminine" anymore than I should say that there is a "sacred masculine". Nothing in Arda is sacred BECAUSE of its gender, rather its gender causes it to manifest its sanctity in specific ways.

For example, Manwe and Varda are perhaps the only people in Arda who can properly be said to be "sacred". Theirs is the sacred trust of Iluvatar to govern and guide the world, and although they err in making mistakes, theirs is never willful disobedience of the will of the One. Hence, we can ascertain that they are, indeed, sacred, so to speak.

Manwe isn't the masculine personification of sacred. Rather, because he is both sacred and masculine, he exhibits his sacredness in ways that are notably masculine. Manwe is more aloof, has the final say in Arda, and is more fatherly-kinglike. These are masculine traits. Not better or worse than feminine traits, simply different.

Note that it is to Varda (Elbereth) that the Elves call at need. Why? Well, Tolkien does say that she is the one that Melkor (and thus all Evil) feared the most, but why not call on the name of Manwe as well? After all, Manwe was the Gandalf to Melkor's Sauron. He was his direct opponent. He was the King of Arda, the only one in direct contact with Iluvatar.

The reasoning, I feel, lies as much in Varda's feminine aspect as in her sacred one. If Varda can be said to be the most holy person in Arda, so too can she be said to be definitely feminine. In an ideal Catholic household (one which Tolkien would be basing his ideal of perfect), it is the father who is the head. Would it not follow that anyone frightened or in trouble would appeal to the father? On the contrary, frightened children go to mommy, in the same way that Catholics appeal to Mary. Hence, the appeals to Varda. Varda, as the sacred and the feminine and the spouse of Manwe-King-of-Arda, is the "mother" of Arda. The ultimate power rests with Manwe, but the instinctive appeals in distress are made to Varda.

Admittedly, this is getting a bit off the original topic. My point boils down to this: I do not believe in the "sacred feminine". There are females in Arda who have achieved what may be called sanctity, but there is no gender-specific sanctity, only sanctity made visible in gender-specific ways.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

There is no exactly "sacred feminine" anymore than I should say that there is a "sacred masculine". Nothing in Arda is sacred BECAUSE of its gender, rather its gender causes it to manifest its sanctity in specific ways.

For example, Manwe and Varda are perhaps the only people in Arda who can properly be said to be "sacred". Theirs is the sacred trust of Iluvatar to govern and guide the world, and although they err in making mistakes, theirs is never willful disobedience of the will of the One. Hence, we can ascertain that they are, indeed, sacred, so to speak.

Manwe isn't the masculine personification of sacred. Rather, because he is both sacred and masculine, he exhibits his sacredness in ways that are notably masculine. Manwe is more aloof, has the final say in Arda, and is more fatherly-kinglike. These are masculine traits. Not better or worse than feminine traits, simply different.

Note that it is to Varda (Elbereth) that the Elves call at need. Why? Well, Tolkien does say that she is the one that Melkor (and thus all Evil) feared the most, but why not call on the name of Manwe as well? After all, Manwe was the Gandalf to Melkor's Sauron. He was his direct opponent. He was the King of Arda, the only one in direct contact with Iluvatar.

The reasoning, I feel, lies as much in Varda's feminine aspect as in her sacred one. If Varda can be said to be the most holy person in Arda, so too can she be said to be definitely feminine. In an ideal Catholic household (one which Tolkien would be basing his ideal of perfect), it is the father who is the head. Would it not follow that anyone frightened or in trouble would appeal to the father? On the contrary, frightened children go to mommy, in the same way that Catholics appeal to Mary. Hence, the appeals to Varda. Varda, as the sacred and the feminine and the spouse of Manwe-King-of-Arda, is the "mother" of Arda. The ultimate power rests with Manwe, but the instinctive appeals in distress are made to Varda.

Admittedly, this is getting a bit off the original topic. My point boils down to this: I do not believe in the "sacred feminine". There are females in Arda who have achieved what may be called sanctity, but there is no gender-specific sanctity, only sanctity made visible in gender-specific ways.

Bravo Formendacil! Very well done.

[Mithalwen]

If I remember rightly the bodies that the valar chose to dress themselves in were chosen to reflect their inclinations. It should be remembered that they were spiritual rather than physical beings - and the use of the word spouse again is in the sense of a spiritual rather than physical union (which is why the idea of the Maiar being the offspring of the Valar was rejected). True soul mates if you will. Because the gender is a reflection of their nature rather than the nature a reflection of the gender the worship of Varda and the other valier is in a sense a worship of the sacred feminine because they are the "holies" who manifest themselves in female forms. If you look at the "interests" of the valar they do fall into broad sexual stereotypes. Most belief systems do ascribe male and female aspects to creation. Generally it is all a matter of perspective, balance and harmony.

Strange in that while I ended up saying yes and Formendacil no I think his final phrase "sanctity made visible in gender-specific ways" is more or less what I was saying too .

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Neithan

I think that both the feminine and the masculine were just different parts of Eru's mind, which I think is part of what Ka was getting at.
Just a note on feminine roles in mythology, the very first primitive civilizations often worshiped women figures (often times a women leader of the tribe) for fertility. Women are the symbol of fertility so from this came the concept of "Mother Earth". In those times these mother figures were the most important in mythology because people needed crops to survive. Later mythology was largely taken over by men (in Greek mythology mother earth's husband and later her male children gain power over her, this was probably the Greek's way of shifting from the female dominated religion to a male dominated one). In most mythologies there was still a remnent of that "mother figure" representing fertility (Demeter). In Tolkiens mythology Yavanna seems to fill this role. Of course that is not the only role in mythology for women, but it is the one role that is almost always played by a women.

BULLS EYE! Correct! That was what i was trying to explain... Unfortunately, my clock did not agree and said it was time to be out the door.

For everyone to have alittle more briefing about attibutes, the following list explains common and uncommonly aspects to either female or male...

Feminine

Left
Water, Earth
Chalice
Spring
Summer

Masculine

Right
Air, Fire
Sword
Fall
Winter

The reason why I left out the Sun and Moon is because, not all cultures can agree upon which one is a feminine repersentation or masculine. For example, the Ancient greek and Celtic cultures mostly saw the moon as feminine and the sun as masculine, while Finnish and Ancient Egypt (sometimes, depends on kingdom and current cult, ect.) saw the moon as masculine and sun visa versa. This is important to remember when you read about Middle Earth, how the sun is referred to as 'she', this is another observation of Tolkien's love for Finnish culture which he used greatly in modeling some of its attributes.

~Ka~

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Yavanna, a question - do you mean something specific by the "sacred feminine"? Is this something to do with the Da Vinci Code?

Yup. Sure do.

[tar-ancalime]

I feel sorry for the guys who wrote the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail 15 odd years ago, who no doubt Dan Brown borrowed from to make millions!

Not to mention poor Umberto Eco--I thought quite a lot of D.V. Code was cribbed directly from Foucault's Pendulum.

Regarding the main topic of this thread (and cleverly keeping my post from being deleted), I think that Mithalwen and Formendacil have got the right idea. I do have deep reservations, though, about the whole idea of classifying sanctity by gender, regardless of the causal chain involved. It seems to me immaterial, for example, whether Yavanna or Varda exhibits a sanctity that is somehow feminine in its basic nature or whether their femininity causes them to "manifest [their] sanctity in specific ways."

Regardless of which side of that fence one sits on, the effect of the whole argument is to draw lines around each divine being, defining what aspects of sanctity are and are not appropriate for that divinity. Rather than directly describing sanctity or divine beings, it seems to me that that type of discussion is more about the kinds of stories people tell ourselves to help us understand the unknowable. I'm going out on a Legendarium limb here, not having read HoME, but could it be that the very classification of the Valar into genders (like referring to the Sun as "she", as Ka pointed out) can be thought of as a storytelling device employed by the Elves?

(I feel a massive Canon correction coming on...I'm sure I deserve it! )

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Very interesting question yavanna II. I would think that there is quite palpably in LotR, at least, a sense of feminine divinity, but not in or through any simple association of character X with Divine Power. Instead, I think that the divine attribute which manifests time and again throughout the story of Pity is best or most highly exemplified by a series of female characters in the story.

The supreme good act that the hero can perform in LotRis to deny the Ring: to renounce personal desire for the sake of other people; to take pity on the world by refusing to put oneself forward. Aragorn does this when he refuses to claim the Ring as his own, Faramir does it, Gandalf does it and – most memorably – Galadriel does it. Pity is, throughout the story, associated with the female characters: Galadriel shows it to Frodo and the world by not taking the Ring, Éowyn is cured by it, Shelob utterly lacks it (and is defeated, at least in part, by the Phial of Galadriel). The Pity that Tolkien works through is not just soup-kitchen charity, but the ability to see that there is something more important than the individual self: something that demands the self puts other concerns and people first. This is, according to Tolkien, an inherently feminine way of thinking, with the most masculine impulse being exemplified by characters like Boromir, Saruman and Sauron: men who put themselves forward, and who show no Pity to anyone.

So it’s not that women demonstrate Pity and are thus divine, but that the feminine trait of Pity (be it demonstrated by men or women) is divine. I think that there’s a lot of Tolkien’s Catholicism at work here. One of the most powerful images in the Catholic imagination is that of the pietá (from which the modern words piety and pity both come), which is the image of Mary holding the dead body of her son and weeping over it. Tolkien saw in this image of Mary an expression of an ideal that I think he valued, and that he shows us in Frodo’s journey into Mordor: in that time between the death of Christ and his rebirth, what is there to keep humanity going and hope alive? There is only the willingness of people to put others first, to say “I will sacrifice myself for others.” Mary exemplified that to Tolkien, for she willingly sacrificed her only son for the good of the world. She took pity on humanity.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Tar Ancalime I thought this was a wonderfully interesting idea:

I'm going out on a Legendarium limb here, not having read HoME, but could it be that the very classification of the Vala into genders (like referring to the Sun as "she", as Ka pointed out) can be thought of as a storytelling device employed by the Elves?

although, I think that I would alter it slightly to say that the Valar employed it themselves as a device to make themselves more knowable.

So it’s not that women demonstrate Pity and are thus divine, but that the feminine trait of Pity (be it demonstrated by men or women) is divine.

As Fordim points out, the point of identifying the "Sacred Feminine" is not (or at least should not be) to attribute some divinity to femininity, as though it would otherwise be lacking, but rather to point out what has been culturally considered Feminine and its exemplification in the divinity (or pseudo divinity in the case of Galadriel) in the setting of Middle Earth.

As per the actual thread content:

Even though Tolkien pointed out Galadriel as his Mary-figure, I've always seen an element of her in Elwing. I've always been reminded of Mary by her self-sacrifice to bring the Silmaril to Earendil which resulted in the Valar's eventual arrival and the permanent defeat of Melkor. Perhaps she shares a bit in the Sacred Feminine of Middle-Earth?

Sophia

[THE Ka]

If I remember rightly the bodies that the valar chose to dress themselves in were chosen to reflect their inclinations. It should be remembered that they were spiritual rather than physical beings - and the use of the word spouse again is in the sense of a spiritual rather than physical union (which is why the idea of the Maiar being the offspring of the Valar was rejected).

Furthering on that, If we know, or are told that Eru created them out of his thought, to represent different spiritual aspects, can we not speculate that upon arriving (or that the valar sensed that they existed) that they began to form themselves to what they thought of thmeselves. They, as thought began to somehow know that they would have to become some part, or some relation with Arda and Eru, but they were free to mold themselves. For spiritual references to coupling it might be seen that it was either relativity of the valars' each chosen aspects that caused this 'union' or that they shared common, if not entire relations to what they governed. Example might be Yavanna and Aulë. Yavanna chose to govern all growing things apon Arda, while Aulë was concerned with the substances of arda. Their relation can be seen in how they are both concerned with one, Arda and two, things Arda creates or is able to.


Whew... Okay, I'm done for tonight.

~Ka