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#1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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Do Ainur have wings?
"Of course not!" I can hear indignant voices and thoughts saying. And of course I know Tolkien's works well enough to realize that there is no mention of winged Ainur in any of them. And though the thread title is a tongue-in-cheek parody on the Balrog wings discussion, the topic is a serious one. Please bear with me while I explain my thoughts.
The Ainur are similar to Judaic/Christian angels, with some elements of mythological heathen gods thrown in. Angels are generally perceived as winged, though there is little (perhaps even no? I'd have to look it up to be sure...) actual mention of that in the Bible. The reason for that notion is their ability to travel quickly, going back and forth from heaven to earth, or location to location, in almost no time. As to the mythological gods, there are some who are winged, most notably Mercury/Hermes. I assume that fast, airborne transportation would be the reason for that as well. Both Christian and mythological elements being the background for Tolkien's Ainur, why do none of them have wings? And which method of transportation do they then use? A brief skim through "The Istari" in UT did not give me any information about how they traveled; it only says that they came to Middle-earth. I assume that Ulmo, Ossë and Uinen swam, since the waters were their domain. Tulkas "can outrun all things that go on foot", and Oromë rides a horse. Other than that, no other methods of transportation occur to me at the moment. (I do hope that those more knowledgeable in the Legendarium will add more references if they know of any.) Now, if they originally travelled throughout Middle-earth, how? Perhaps their non-meddling policy in the latter times was due to the fact that they could not easily get 'there and back again'? ![]() Both source information and speculative thoughts are welcome here!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#2 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Cherubim: Ezekiel 1:11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out above: each had two touching another being, and two covering their bodies.
Seraphim: Isaiah 6:2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with tw he flew. Other orders, it's hard to tell. Interesting, Esty!
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#3 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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Thanks for those Biblical references, mark! I didn't take the time to look them up, but if I remember correctly, those are the only definitive ones.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#4 |
Sword of Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Oh, I'm around.
Posts: 1,401
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I've also thought of the Ainur being somewhat akin to angels. Although I've never pondered whether they had wings or not.
So, here's my thought. The Maiar, at least, could change their physical shapes to resemble another body. Sauron did this numerous times, and Gandalf appeared as a man. It would make sense to me then that the Ainur would also have this ability, since they are a step up from the Maiar. Now, I don't know what they would look like in their natural states, but it is entirely possible that they could have wings. Even that they would have wings if they wanted to. They could just 'become' a creature with wings. Hope that helps a little. BTW, good references, mark. ![]()
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#5 | |||
The Kinslayer
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To me the question would be, why would they need for if they can travel with their "spirits". (Like Sauron did when his hröa was destroyed in Númenórë)
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#6 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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As I recall, the reason Angels are depicted (or visualised) with wings is because they are spiritual beings & travel 'vertically' (speaking metaphorically) between Heaven & Earth.
The Valar & Maiar, having entered into the World, are bound within its circles, & are unable to leave it & return to 'Heaven' as long as it exists. Hence, no wings. Which brings up the question of whether there are any equivalents of Angelos within the Legendarium - spiritual beings who travel between Illuvatar & the Valar/Eruhini. This is interesting - for me at least - in that while Tolkien describes the Valar & Maiar as 'Angelic' beings & speaks of the Istari as 'incarnate Angels' they have very little in common with Biblical Angels. Basically, they are the Pagan gods by another name & exist within the world - hence, no wings, as they do not pass out of this world into a 'higher' one & back. Hermes is a different case, as his 'wings' are on his heels, not his back, & merely permit him to move around with speed, not to fly. |
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#7 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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Thanks for all the interesting replies so far! Yes, Maédhros, I agree that a journey by ship is implied, but it is never said outright that the Istari came by ship. davem, you make an excellent point about the difference between Ainur and angels in that the Ainur who came to Middle-earth no longer have access to the heavens, so there is no need for travelling back and forth there.
Gurthang, your comments about the Ainur being able to take a shape, with or without wings, echo a chat conversation I had with Sharkû today. I have his permission to quote it, so here is what he said, summed up: Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 01-08-2005 at 03:26 PM. |
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#8 |
Dead Serious
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Well, the Balrogs were Ainur. So if you could conclusively prove that they had wings, then you could conclusively prove that Ainur had wings.
![]() However, to bypass that, let's go straight to Thorondor and the Eagles of Manwe, who are said in Tolkien's later works that they must have been Maiar (aka lesser Ainur) in origin. But it boils down to this fact: Wings are a physical part of a body. The body of any Ainu depends on his choice (or, more likely in the Balrogs' cases, on the choice of the person they obey unquestioningly). Hence, it varies from Ainu to Ainu, a fact that is further complicated by the fact that a great number of the Ainur could change forms or not wear any at all. Therefore, it follows logically, that there is no one general statement to be made, and must be evaluated on an Ainu-by-Ainu basis.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#9 | |||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Mythology does not tend to make use of Gods/Goddesses with wings, as they often simply manifest themselves wherever needed, or take on forms which we would not traditionally associate with angels in the Christian tradition. Some Gods are manifest as animals, as trees, or even as seemingly inanimate objects. There are instances of Gods becoming winged creatures, but not becoming 'men with wings' as angels are traditionally depicted.
I think that part of the nature of 'Gods' is that they do not need to consider issues which to us would be important such as travel - as they are manifest where they need to be. There is a good instance of one of the Valar taking on a non-human form: Quote:
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