Only one lineage?

[Tar Elenion]

In the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' it is made clear that Arwen's continued immortality is contigent on accompanying her father when he leaves Middle Earth for Aman, if she chooses to remain she becomes Mortal. And Aragorn, struck by a forseeing, tells Elrond that the time of his abiding grows short and 'the choice must soon be laid on your children' strongly implying that the same limitation applies to the twins.

Later, when Aragorn suggests Arwen might change her mind and follow her father, she answers 'that choice is long over'. Now either we must assume the twins are, for some unknown reason, bound by different rules than their sister or that they too have chosen Mortality by remaining behind in Middle Earth.

Yet we have a different implication in the Prologue:
"It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once. There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth."

That Elladan and Elrohir 'long remained' implies that they 'departed' eventually. But departed for where? In this section 'departing' is used for 'Sailing West'. But that does not necessarily imply that Elladan and Elrohir did so. Was their 'departure' death? or the West? (or maybe they just decided to live elsewhere).
As JRRT wrote:
"Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."

The HoME shows clearly that the Professor was constantly revising and rethinking his opus but it is my understanding he felt bound by anything that had actually appeared in print - even if he got a better idea later.

Usually he did, but he might also look for an out. The comment from Letters (which is contemporary with LotR, not a later different idea) ties in quite neatly with the Prologue statement.

And Legolas, I must disagree, Elros's kids were every bit as much descendants of Earendil as Elrond's brood, and Manwe says *any Mortal blood at all* whether greater or lesser makes the carrier Mortal, but by special grace Earendil's sons are allowed to choose which kindred they will be counted among. Thus either *all* Earendil and Elwing's grandchildren should have been automatically mortal, (as per the usual rule) *OR* all should have been allowed their choice. The exact percentage of Elven and Mortal blood shouldn't make any difference at all.

Manwe says any mortal blood at all makes one mortal unless Manwe specifically grants them other Doom. The 'all or none' option you are presenting nothing to do with what was written. JRRT quite specifically said Elros had a choice, and chose to be mortal, and thus his descendants were mortal, he did not make an exception for Elros' children. He also quite specifically said Elrond had a choice and Elronds's children had a choice (and Elrond's children were born thousands of years after Elros' children died).

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I don't know, sometimes I think we are talking at cross purposes.

Point one: All with mortal blood in greater or lesser part share the Gift of Men, though they may also live very long lives.

Point two: An exception was made for Earendil and Elwing, they were allowed to choose which kind they would be counted among - in other words to choose between the Gift of Men and the life bound to Arda of the Elves.

Point three: the same favor was granted to their sons. Elros chose to abid with Men, Elrond to share the fate of the Elves.

I believe we agree on all these points, no?

Now, since all with mortal blood, (of whatever proportion) are Mortal then Elrond's children should also have been Mortal dispite their Elven mother. Right?

*However* they, like their father were allowed to choose - and the choice seems to have been had to be made when Elrond departed from Middle Earth - in Arwen's case at least, and frankly I see no reason to assume it was not true of the twins as well.

Now, why was the right of choice extended to them as well as their father - and *how* were they made aware of it? Elrond married and had his children in the Third Age, after the change of the world and before the arrival of the Istari. So who told them their doom?

Elrond and Elros made their choices at the end of the First Age, when the Host of Valinor led by Eonwe herald of Manwe were still in Middle Earth. Vardamir's date of birth also suggests that his father was either married or at least in love, presumably with a Mortal Woman, when he made his decision.

Thus the question of children and their destiny would naturally have arisen at that time. I repeat, Arwen and the twins are *every bit as Mortal by birth as the children of Elros for all their Elven mother. I see absolutely no logical reason why they should have been favored over Elros' brood.

Logically Eonwe must have extended the choice to their offspring at the time Elros and Elrond made their own decisions. Telling Elrond his children could delay their final decision until his departure to Aman, and perhaps giving Elros' the option to sail to Aman if they chose too. Possibly none did, certainly none of his sons did. They remained in Numenor as Mortal Men.

Nor do I see the quote from Tolkien's letter as negating this possibility. He says Elros' descendants were long lived kings, and so they were - or rather so *some* of them were. Just as not all his descendants were kings so not all may have been Mortal. Clearly Tolkien was talking about the direct line of the kings here, the line that regretted Elros' decision and tried to reverse it. It doesn't necessarily say anything about the junior lines descended from Elros' younger sons, (who were not kings) or his daughter (who may not have been mortal).

[Tar Elenion]

I don't know, sometimes I think we are talking at cross purposes.
Point one: <snip>
Point two: <snip>
Point three: <snip>

I believe we agree on all these points, no?

Correct.

Now, since all with mortal blood, (of whatever proportion) are Mortal then Elrond's children should also have been Mortal dispite their Elven mother. Right?

Correct, _unless_ granted 'other doom' by Manwe.

*However* they, like their father were allowed to choose - and the choice seems to have been had to be made when Elrond departed from Middle Earth - in Arwen's case at least, and frankly I see no reason to assume it was not true of the twins as well.

Arguably Arwen's choice was made and doom appointed earlier when she and Aragorn plighted their troth in Lorien (TA 2980), see The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in App, A.
You are of course at liberty to Assume the twin's chose mortality. But that is all it is, an assumption. JRRT deliberately (it would seem), chose not to specify their fate. He could easily have said they died in Letter 153, he chose not to. In other words I choose not to make an assumption, I simply state that their fate is not specified and provide a quote from the author to back it up.

Now, why was the right of choice extended to them as well as their father - and *how* were they made aware of it? Elrond married and had his children in the Third Age, after the change of the world and before the arrival of the Istari. So who told them their doom?

Presumably they were informed by Manwe, perhaps through Osanwe (direct thought transmission).

Elrond and Elros made their choices at the end of the First Age, when the Host of Valinor led by Eonwe herald of Manwe were still in Middle Earth. Vardamir's date of birth also suggests that his father was either married or at least in love, presumably with a Mortal Woman, when he made his decision.

Vardamir being born in Second Age 61 suggests that Elros was already married (or in love) when he made his choice some 61 years earlier?

Thus the question of children and their destiny would naturally have arisen at that time. I repeat, Arwen and the twins are *every bit as Mortal by birth as the children of Elros for all their Elven mother. I see absolutely no logical reason why they should have been favored over Elros' brood.

The question did arise and was answered. They are all mortal unless granted other doom by Manwe.
Why grant Elronds children 'other doom' and not Elros' children? Perhaps because of the differing fates of Elves and Men. If Elrond's children were only granted mortality they would be forever seperated from their kindred with out any choice on there part. As for Elros' children remember 'death is the Gift of God to Men'.

Logically Eonwe must have extended the choice to their offspring at the time Elros and Elrond made their own decisions. Telling Elrond his children could delay their final decision until his departure to Aman, and perhaps giving Elros' the option to sail to Aman if they chose too. Possibly none did, certainly none of his sons did. They remained in Numenor as Mortal Men.

Factually they had no children to extend the choice too. What you are saying is 'logical' is merely an unsupported assumption.

Nor do I see the quote from Tolkien's letter as negating this possibility. He says Elros' descendants were long lived kings, and so they were - or rather so *some* of them were. Just as not all his descendants were kings so not all may have been Mortal. Clearly Tolkien was talking about the direct line of the kings here, the line that regretted Elros' decision and tried to reverse it. It doesn't necessarily say anything about the junior lines descended from Elros' younger sons, (who were not kings) or his daughter (who may not have been mortal).

The quote from Letter 153 says:
"Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men)."

It does not say "Elros' descendants were long lived kings". It says "Elros was a King". It says his descendants are "of a specially noble race". And it quite specifically says:
"all his descendants are mortal".
[emp. mine]
It does not make any exceptions.

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Aiwendil]

Note that I had started writing this post before Tar Elenion's reply above; apologies if I repeated anything he said.

Point one: All with mortal blood in greater or lesser part share the Gift of Men, though they may also live very long lives.

Yes, except those given the special choice by Manwe. But all with mortal blood must at least have the option of dying.

Point two: An exception was made for Earendil and Elwing, they were allowed to choose which kind they would be counted among - in other words to choose between the Gift of Men and the life bound to Arda of the Elves.

Yes.

Point three: the same favor was granted to their sons. Elros chose to abid with Men, Elrond to share the fate of the Elves.

Yes.

*However* they, like their father were allowed to choose - and the choice seems to have been had to be made when Elrond departed from Middle Earth - in Arwen's case at least, and frankly I see no reason to assume it was not true of the twins as well.

There is every reason to think that this was not true of the twins, since so much is quite clearly attested in Tolkien's letters. It is quite clear that Elladan and Elrohir remained for a time and delayed their choice - so obviously they were able to.

Nor do I think there is particularly much evidence that Arwen's choice was linked to Elrond's departure. You quoted earlier a passage in which Arwen says that her choice was 'long over'. But surely this means only that she, in the event, made her choice long ago and is firmly resolved in it - not that there was some deadline to be observed.

So who told them their doom?

That is a good question. Perhaps the rules, as it were, of the inheritance of the choice were made clear by Manwe (and through Eonwe) at the first.

Thus the question of children and their destiny would naturally have arisen at that time. I repeat, Arwen and the twins are *every bit as Mortal by birth as the children of Elros for all their Elven mother. I see absolutely no logical reason why they should have been favored over Elros' brood.

The reason is made quite clear: because Elros chose to be mortal. The only reason that the children of Elrond were not automatically immortal was because they had some mortal blood and therefore had to be offered the option of mortality. But immortality is not a 'gift' in the way mortality is, and those who would normally be human but had some Elvish blood thus had no special right to immortality.

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

I simply cannot see any reason why Elrond's children should be favored over Elros' when both are, by nature equally mortal. Clearly the privilege of choice was related to their descend from Earendil and Elwing and should apply to Elros' descendants as well.

Even if all Elros' children and their descendants did become mortal, (and sorry for getting the details of the quote wrong) that still doesn't mean they weren't given a choice. I have never denied that all three sons at least were Mortal but they may have chosen to be so as did their cousins several thousand years later.

P.S. Oh and another whoops about Vardamir's birthdate - somehow I confused Elros' age (58) with the year. Must have been sleep deprivation [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Legolas]

I simply cannot see any reason why Elrond's children should be favored over Elros' when both are, by nature equally mortal. Clearly the privilege of choice was related to their descend from Earendil and Elwing and should apply to Elros' descendants as well.

Because Elrond's children were the result of the marraige of two immortal beings.

Manwe deemed it important enough that the children have the choice to stick with their parents to extend that right to them.

Elros left the world, and so did his wife.

You can disagree with Manwe (and Eru, or even Tolkien), but that doesn't change their motives or reasoning.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Aiwendil:

According to Manwe *everybody* with *any* mortal blood is automatically accounted mortal (unless I've gotten that quote wrong too). According to this rule Arwen and the twins would have been *mortal* dispite their Elven mother.

I argue that Elrond's offspring were given the option of choosing Immortality because the grace granted to Earendil and Elwing was extended to their grandchildren as well as their sons. If this is so than logically the same grace would have been extended to Elros' brood.

Legolas: the Gift of Men is from Eru Himself and not to be lightly interfered with, certainly not for sentimental reasons. Your theory is possible but to me unconvincing. Like I said, let's agree to disagree.

But Enough of this small talk about immortality and the Gift of Men! Let's discuss a really critical issue:

How many generations does it take for Elven descendants to lose their pointed ears? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Assuming pointy ears are a simple dominant gene, as seems likely, simple Mendelian calculation should give us the answer:

o = round ears
v = pointy ears

Beren (oo) + Luthien (vv) = Dior (vo)

Dior (vo) + Nimloth (vv) = Elwing (vo or vv)

Elwing could be either heterozygous like her father with one 'o' gene and one 'v' gene or she could have inherited the 'v' gene from both parents and been homozygous.

Elwing (vo) + Earendil (vo) = Elros and Elrond (vv, vo or oo)

Elros and Elrond would have a three in four chance of being pointy eared, (vv or vo)
and one in four chance of being round eared (oo). However if Elwing is homzygous (vv) the twins have a hundred percent chance of being pointy eared with either a 'vv' or 'vo' genotype.

Elrond (vo) + Celebrian (vv) = Arwen (vv or vo)

All Elrond's children would inevitably have pointy ears, even if he himself did not, as he married an Elf. Assuming he did have them and was 'vo' than his offspring would have of fifty/fifty chance of being homozygous (vv) genotypes.

Arwen (vv/vo) + Aragorn (oo) = Eldarion (vo or oo)

Depending on Arwen's genotype the next King of Arnor and Gondor and his sisters have either a fifty/fifty chance of pointy ears or an hundred percent chance, (with a vo genotype).

Eldarion (vo) + ? (oo) = ? (vo or oo)

So his offspring too would have a fifty-fifty chance of pointy ears....in fact if they're lucky (?) the Telcontars could go on producing pointy eared mortals for several generations before the 'v' gene finally failed to be passed on. As must eventually have happened with the descendants of Tar-Minyatur.

Elros (vv) + ? (oo) = Vardamir (vo)

or:

Elros (vo) + ? (oo) = Vardamir (vo or oo)

And so forth down the generations.

Is anybody following this? I'm not sure I am...... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Aiwendil]

Interesting analysis! But, even assuming that Elves do have pointed ears, how can we be sure that Luthien was homozygous? Did Melian have pointed ears? Probably (assuming the existence of pointed ears at all), since she incarnated herself when Elves were the naturally incarnate rational creatures. But if not, you're whole analysis would be off. Now that would be a tragedy.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Ack! what a horrible thought. Apparently pointy ears are canonical, in the Entymologies Tolkien says that Elf ears were pointed with a leaflike shape, (thus the similarity of the Quendian root words for leaf and ear).

[Tar Elenion]

According to Manwe *everybody* with *any* mortal blood is automatically accounted mortal (unless I've gotten that quote wrong too). According to this rule Arwen and the twins would have been *mortal* dispite their Elven mother.

Unless Manwe granted them other Doom. It was within Manwe's prerogative to grant 'other doom' as he saw fit.

I argue that Elrond's offspring were given the option of choosing Immortality because the grace granted to Earendil and Elwing was extended to their grandchildren as well as their sons. If this is so than logically the same grace would have been extended to Elros' brood.

That is not what JRRT says. JRRT says:
"Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices."

Legolas' suggestion that Elrond's children were offered that grace out of compassion for their parents, (so they might not lose their children) is possible but not particularly likely as such graces are not granted out of sentiment but as a reward for great deeds affecting the destiny of Arda.

JRRT states that, with their renewed Elvish strain, Elrond's children have a choice. He says Elros chose mortality and so his descendants are all mortal. Elrond had done no great deeds affecting the destiny of Arda when he was granted his choice. Thus there is a reason they were granted a choice. To allow them to decide whether or not to be forever seperated from their kindred is a more likely reason than Manwe extended the choice to the grandchildren of Earendil and Elwing(who were not even born), as well as their children. Especially since JRRT says Elros was mortal so his chidren were mortal.

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Legolas]

Yes, obviously.

If your logic was true, Morwen, then Elrond and Elros would not have received the choice for they were the children of two half-elven and would have mortal blood.

Thus, instead of Elrond and Elros dying as mortals, they had the choice to have their fundamental fate as they would without Manwe's grant (mortality) or to remain with their parents.

Legolas: the Gift of Men is from Eru Himself and not to be lightly interfered with, certainly not for sentimental reasons. Your theory is possible but to me unconvincing. Like I said, let's agree to disagree.

The Gift of Men was changed for Luthien and Beren SOLELY for 'sentimental' reasons. Love, whether it lies between husband and wife or parent and children, is very important in Tolkien's world, and obviously so in this matter, as Earendil chose immortality for Elwing's sake, Luthien chose mortality to be with Beren, Arwen chose mortality to be with Aragorn (and the grief at parting with her father is also emphasized). All these decisions were based primarily (even totally) on 'sentimental' reasons. It is obvious that this was part of Tolkien's thoughts behind his decisions.

Your theory is possible but to me unconvincing.

Again, if Tolkien's own motivations and decisions about his world aren't acceptable to you, I'm not sure why you taken such interest in the topic. Whether you think they are good reasons or not is another story, but I'm simply presenting to you how his world was.

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

The distinction between the offspring of Elrond and that of Elros is a good question, and fine debate has ensued on the merits of Elros' children having the same choice as Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir, who were all in the same boat, so to speak.

But allow me to paint a picture for why -- aside from the "enriched strain" -- special grace was given to Elrond's children, and that the buck had already stopped for Elros' progeny.

Envision at the close of the First Age, Eonwe or whomever comes to Elrond and Elros and explains the fate of their parents, and the choices they were given and what they decided. Pretty tough.

It is also told onto Elrond and Elros that they too must choose which Kindred they would be. Now, Manwe on down to the Peredhil are all really bright folks capable of abstract anticipation of future events. So, the question arises: What about our children? Who would want to be immortal, if only to see his children die?

Remember, the default status is known and established, and the choice to Elros and Elrond is not to be transformed into a Man or an Elf, but rather to have the life and fate of one or the other. (One could argue that the choice is really to be counted among the Firstborn or not) Generally, Elrond is not called an “Elf” per se, as indeed he is not supposed to be. So, it would be perfectly clear to both Elrond and Elros and the messengers from the Valar that without any further pronouncement of fate, the matter of the next generation needs to be addressed, and was quite logically resolved even before Elrond and Elros were approached.

Now, if the choice is to be of the Secondborn, and of course, King of the remaining Attani, then you have chosen for your children. It needs to stop somewhere, and indeed mortality is the true gift. Besides, how would it operate otherwise for Elros' children? What! ... In their old age, just as they are about to die, they can hop on a boat to Eldamar and become immortal? No, Elros cast the die for all is descendents. There would need to have been all sorts of rules to govern any further choices thereafter.

But if the choice were immortality, then a cruel fate would ensue if no further grace was given to their children, and I would argue any further descendents. Nobody wants to outlive his or her children. It's one of the most dreaded prospects in life.

But at the same time the Exception in Fate by Manwe against the power of mortality inherent to any drop of human blood must have limits.

If Elrond had packed up and gone to Aman at the start of the Second Age, then clearly any descendents of his born in the Undying Lands should have certainly had the life of the Quendi.

But in the case of his staying in Middle-Earth, as was the case (and putting aside the postulation of his having married a mortal woman), the question arises as to how far Manwe’s declaration applied.

And, I would say that it was probably put to Elrond and Elros as such: That were either of them to choose for the Elves and yet not depart directly for the Undying Lands, wherefrom while he should so abode in Middle-Earth, any of his children and their children and so forth as directly descended from him, will enjoy the life of the Firstborn. Those descendents, however, shall forfeit that life if not joining him in Aman, once he has so verily departed from Endor.

My argument is that this was all thought out and explicitly part of the choice presented to the children of Earendil and Elwing.

Elladan/Elrohir & the question of too late.

I've always tended to intuit that Elladan and Elrohir chose mortality, but clearly, NOT because they failed to be onboard when Elrond set sail. His children, as JRRT’s letter indicates, had some time after Elrond had left, in which they could still sail into the West.

For Arwen, I would say that that period was moot. Having married Aragorn, it would have broken the sacrament of matrimony for her to go into the West, even were that an option. In a sense, Aragorn’s remark in the "Tale of Aragorn & Arwen" is, perhaps, a dying man's attempt to test is wife’s love, to help her see that hope remains, or to salve is own guilt at having brought her to that extremely painful juncture.

The tremendous force of that “Tale” is Arwen's realization that the bite of mortality is not one's own demise, which is usually assumed in thinking of men seeking unending life. Rather, what’s most hard to bear, it is the loss or leaving of those that we love. That’s what can really challenge the heart of even the most faithful and pious.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, my thinking has always been if they tarried in Middle-Earth, after the Sailing of the Keepers of the Rings, longer than a normal mortal man’s adult lifetime, then it was too late, and they’d age and die at an age of say 120-some years like Arwen.

The reference in the Prologue, however, indicates that the brethren’s remaining in Rivendell, whether that is what’s meant by “long remained,” was well within the lifetime of Merry. So, I’m actually more open-minded to their having potentially departed in time to the West, but I’ve always felt they wished to identify with Men, and then of the seven with a choice, it would be 4 to 3 in favor of the Secondborn. (The reference confirms my belief that Celeborn only went on the last boat with Cirdan).

[Finally, I think the quote about Aragorn’s relatively shorter lifetime compared to earlier descendents of Elros was from a less developed time in JRRT’s interpretations of the Red Book. Aragorn lived to be 210, still thrice that of normal mortal men, and perhaps significantly longer than any other Dunedain by the Fourth Age, but still less than was originally the case for the Line of Elros, for which five times a normal lifespan had been the norm.]

[Lalaith]

I've just had a moment of horrid confusion. When some posters were referring to what "Legolas" had said, I thought that *Tolkien's* Legolas had been holding forth on the question of immortality somewhere in the canon. Then I realised it was BD's Legolas. All is now clear. Phew. Serves me right for speed-reading.
But one thing I wondered about. What other characteristics are definitely 'Elvish' rather than human, other than immortality and pointy ears? Did the half-eleven show any definite 'elvish' traits? Arwen definitely had elvish rather than human beauty, as did Dior. What of the others?
A

[Legolas]

Dior's beauty came not only from his Elvish blood, but the result of being the son of the hottest chick ever. Dior was also 1/4 Ainu.

[Lalaith]

But did he have pointy ears? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

What I meant by my question was that while immortality is certainly the most important difference between elves and humans, presumably there were also other differences. I wondered whether these would have been inherited, or not, by the halfeleven.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

See my long disquisition of the probable genetics of pointy ears above.

It boils down to is first generation half-elven are sure to have pointy-ears, (certainly Elrond and his children do). Second generation with one full mortal parent have a fifty-fifty chance of inheriting the pointy ears, ditto for the offspring of any of those who hit the jackpot.

Thus several generations of Elros' descendants might have possessed elven ears. And the same goes for the House of Telcontar.

[Frodo Baggins]

Ooooo My little baby topic is all grown up and made of two pages! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I'm not so sure that the children of Earendil were not given their choice because their father made it to the Undying Lands, and ONLY because if this. Earendil, being halfelven and thus mortal, made it there without death, and he nor Elwing really weren't supposed to be there. Perhaps the Valar said "All right they have mortal children, and they are mortal. But we are letting them stay here, what about the kiddies?"

And when I asked about only one lineage of halfelven, I forgot about the people of Dol Amroth, who legend says and Legolas confirmed are descended of Nimrodel and Mortals. Thus, the people of Dol Amroth have elven blood in them. Perhaps even Finduilas of Dol Amroth, wife of Lord Denethor Stweard of Gondor had at least a small bit of elvish in her.

[ April 11, 2003: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Finduilas certainly had Elven blood, being a descendant of Mithrellas of Lorien who married Imrazor the Numenorean. Their son was the first Lord of Dol Amroth.

Imrahil, brother of Finduilas, shows his Elven ancestry clearly enough to be recognized by Legolas as a kinsman. It's possible her Elven blood was what made Finduilas so susceptible to the malign effects of Mordor's nearness, apparently Elves are far more sensitive and adversely affected by such things than we Mortal Men.

[Legolas]

Subsequently, Boromir and Faramir had some elvish blood, as well as the Stewards of Faramir's line. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[obloquy]

Read.

Elves and Men were physiologically identical. There was no 'breeding out' of the pointy ears, if ever the Quendi had them. I see no reason to believe they did, however. Why would Tolkien have given them pointy ears?

[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

In 'the Etymologies' chapter of 'The Lost Road' (HoME) Tolkien writes that the Quendi ear is leaf shaped, that is pointed. I guess that makes it canon.

[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Legolas]

I don't believe he said which tree's leaf.

Where do you come off thinking that all leaves are pointed?

[obloquy]

Besides that, the Etymologies dates back to the late '30s. Look at the post I linked to.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Last time I looked 'leaf-shaped' meant oval with a pointed end. Of course they could have had multiple points like a maple leaf, or been big and wrinkly like a cabbage leaf.....

I did read the link. IMO the evidence is contradictory so one is free to believe whatever one likes. Personally I think it leans towards pointy ears - or at least doesn't exclude the possibility.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

that choice is long over

I've always taken that as meaning, that Arwen didn't want to chooce immortality anymore, and that choice was gone when she wedded Aragorn.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

To make life a little more difficult, what of Tuor, who had no elven blood at all, yet he just packed up and went west;

"But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men." (Silm. 2nd ed.)

I wish to make it clear that I don't think Elros' children had a choice. But I think that it is also clear from the canon that the lines are not as clear cut as one might expect. Of the three unions of elves and men, two "elven" women died (although Tolkien states that Arwen was not an elf, and Luthien was only half-elven as well), and one Mortal man gained immortality.

The first generation after Tuor was counted half-elven, but the first generation after Beren was not (I see no indication that Dior was counted mortal, some will argue that he was, Tolkien said he was of three races, the Eldar, the Edain, and the Maiar. If Dior had been mortal, wouldn't his marriage to Nimloth have been a union of elves and men?)

I think the lines are blurred. You can argue otherwise, but real life is not clear cut, and I think it's quite obvious that Tolkien didn't want it clear cut in ME either.

Sophia

[Aiwendil]

I see no indication that Dior was counted mortal, some will argue that he was

Some will indeed.

Being of three races (as he indeed was) does not necessarily say anything about the matter of his mortality or immortality. He is mortal for two independent reasons: first, because he was the son of two mortals (as Luthien had indeed become mortal), and second because all those with any human blood are mortal unless specifically granted a choice. The idea of this special grace did not even exist until after Earendil reached Aman, so it certainly was not extended to Dior.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Point taken, not necessarily agreed upon, but all the relevent facts have been stated so many times it's not worth repeating. However, my point was to say, not that Dior was immortal or mortal, simply that he isn't counted anywhere among the half-elven.

Sophia

[Legolas]

I wish to make it clear that I don't think Elros' children had a choice. But I think that it is also clear from the canon that the lines are not as clear cut as one might expect.

Elros' children definitely did not have a choice. It is clear cut. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Letter No. 153

Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

Point taken, not necessarily agreed upon,

Where do you disagree?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I agree totally and completely about Elros' children! *reprimands self for entering this discussion*

I also agree about the fate of the half-elven (as it has been described here) Earendil and Elwing were offered a choice, as were their sons Elros and Elrond. The children of Elrond were also extended that choice, the children of Elros were not. The children of Arwen were not. Very clear cut.

What is less than clear cut is the distinction between the Elder and Younger children when they begin mixing.

For example: Tolkien clearly states that Arwen is not an elf (I believe that's already been quoted on this thread) yet her marriage with Aragorn is one of the three unions between elves and men. Yet, she is certainly numbered among men, for she "died indeed and left the world" and the Silm. states clearly that "[Luthien] alone of the Eldalie... has died indeed, and left the world long ago."

Dior, following the main line of thought, was a mortal, essentially human, who married an elf (Nimloth) and wasn't considered a union of elves and men.

Tuor was a man with no elven blood who went to Valinor and shared the fate of the firstborn.

And as for what Man-of-the-Wold said:

Having married Aragorn, it would have broken the sacrament of matrimony for her to go into the West, even were that an option.

Both Melian and Mithrellas went west (without their husbands) after having married in ME.

It simply is not black and white. Manwe exercises his discretion freely-- he has to, the marriages in ME get as complex as some on Jerry Springer [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Sophia

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I think in many ways this whole discussion highlights examples of where exceptions prove the rule.

As for Arwen, she was both and Elf and a non-Elf.

Also, in comparison to Mithrellas and Melian, Arwen like Luthien had a choice. There was no point in Melian or even Mithrellas remaining in Middle-Earth forever. Arwen on the other hand would be as mortal as her spouse, and in actuality did not have the option of going to Valinor when Aragorn died (I rationalize his apparent remark to contrary elsewhere).

Moreover, I would argue that any such option effectively dissolved at the point of their marriage. Whereas for Elrohir and Elladan it is a healthy "who knows?"

[Novhloke]

there must have been mroe lineage, but remember, here is my opinion

The elves are not so great and powerfull and beautifull, they were perhaps a small deal greater than the humans. Remember, that I read in the book and i think it was "The Two Towers" of when frodo speaks with galadriel after looking into her mirror, he says that without the rings, the elves with wither and die. So i think that the source of the Elves power and greatness is the One Ring. And some of you may kow this.

I just thought i should bring it out for whoever said "puny humans"