Can anyone speak to the Physics of the Ainulindale?

[Aiwendil]

forgive me Aiwendil, when I posted this your major had completely skipped my mind, or obviously I needn't have bothered

No, I'm glad you posted it here. Despite my somewhat negative comments I find the opinions here interesting.

THat of Elves and esoteric disciplines of Taoism and Eastern Christianity.

This is indeed a very interesting analogy, and I look forward to reading your paper someday. I would argue that a meaningful (as opposed to accidental) analogy is more likely here simply because we're talking now entirely about humans (and Elves, which, as Tolkien points out, are really just another type of the "humane"). It is not surprising or far-fetched to think that similar features in two different humans, or two different cultures, stem from some common impulse in human nature (or in a cultural influences common to both). It can thus be quite meaningful and illuminating to analyze those points of similarity. So discussing Taoism in relation to Tolkien seems to me to be a worthwhile project.

I see no reason why with the Ainulindale he might not have 'accidently', or more exactly 'intuited' any physics behind an Ainulindale.

With all due respect to Tolkien, one cannot simply 'intuit' things like string theory, or ultra-dense conditions in the early universe. One could, I suppose, intuit some notion of entropy - but it would require conscious thought and directed effort. But I don't see any reason to think that the rigorously physical concept of entropy played a role in Tolkien's works. Certainly there is a kind of Norse idea of the long defeat, but this is at all points in the mythology a result of conscious actions, not of random processes.

And from one other angle, the World according to Christian [and Jewish of course, though interpreted differntly] Theology, was also created through sound by God's 'Word'.

I agree that this is a meaningful similarity. However, I would say that the word of God in Genesis and in John corresponds more accurately to Iluvatar's "Ea!" than to the singing of the Ainur. In fact, I think that the actual song of the Ainur is one of the interesting differences between the Legendarium and Judeo-Christian theology. In the latter, the angelic beings play no apparent role in the actual devising of the universe. This, I think, ties in with Tolkien's emphasis, both in the Ainulindale and throughout the Legendarium, on art or 'sub-creation'.

But, as I pointed out above, there are far more dissimilarities between the Ainulindale and various physical concepts such as string theory and vibrations in the early universe than there are similarities.

I think it is often a very illuminating and meaningful activity to search for parallels between an author's work and the real world. However, it is of the utmost importance in this activity to carefully examine the similarities and determine which may be meaningful and which are merely accidental. Also, it is important to search for fundamental connections rather than superficial ones. The fundamental nature of the Ainulindale, I would argue, has nothing to do with amplitudes and normal modes - it has to do with art and artistry.

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[lindil]

With all due respect to Tolkien, one cannot simply 'inuit' things like string theory, or ultra-dense conditions in the early universe. One could, I suppose, intuit some notion of entropy - but it would require conscious thought and directed effort. But I don't see any reason to think that the rigorously physical concept of entropy played a role in Tolkien's works. Certainly there is a kind of Norse idea of the long defeat, but this is at all points in the mythology a result of conscious actions, not of random processes.

as regards to the impossibility or [extreme improbablility] of intuiting 'string theory' or other equally applicable but abstract theories, I bow to your understanding of the matter [no pun intended].

RE: entropy, what of the Valar's gradually failing vigiliance before the Dagor Daggorath [sp?], Although this is not a very material/physical example.

[HCIsland]

In short I think there must surely be grounds for linking 'truth' of currently understood physics [meaning as it is somewhat incomplete it may not yet have accurate postulates, but assuming for a moment it does] with the 'Truth' of Creation 'Myth's' both Scriptural and in the Legendarium.

As much fun as I've had doing this and reading other people's posts, for me this is just that, fun. I'm likely revealing my own beliefs here, but I don't think there has to be a connection between creation myths and physics. For me, this is analogous to using physics to explain how warp engines work in Star Trek. When Roddenberry first designed the Enterprise, I am pretty sure he wasn't thinking about warped space-time and worm holes, but later folks, mostly fans, began taking aspects of modern physics and fitting them to the Trek universe. It sounds good, especially to the layman, but when you examine it closely it breaks down for the obvious reason that we began with fiction, not reality.

Disclaimer: Other than the above comparison, I am in no way associating Star Trek with Tolkien. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Edited to add: Aiwendil, Astrophysics, eh? Cool. That was my major until about half way through second year when I began realizing research wasn't for me and went the teaching route. I finished my undergrad in physics and then went into education.

H.C.

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Beren87]

Aiwendil, Astrophysics, eh?

That was also one of my early ideas, but I think that's changed to simply being a writer now. When I finally realised how much math and how little musing is involved, I gave up.

On another note, I would say that Tolkien picked the most beautiful thing in the universe to describe the creating of his. Is it a coincidence that it also may have something to do with the creating of ours?

[Beren87]

Well, now I would go on the matter of time. To say that the universe was created through the music, that would surely have to be at least when the first super-strings are assumed to have been created (if they exist at all) and when sounds presumably would be able to be transmitted. So that would have to be after the Plank epoch at t=10^-43s. The first music would probably have started at the Grand Unification transition at t=10^-35s, when things such as inflation and baryogenesis were going on. Then the music would have progressed through the Electroweak phase transition at t=10^-11s as the first strong and weak nuclear forces were binding together (which would have started the beginning of the creation of Aman one would suspect). Then on to the Quark- Hadron transistion where Protons and neutrons were being created at t=10^-6s, (this seems like a long time between ages, but it's really not too long in the cosmological scale). The music would have gone on, with probably the second music coming in at Matter Domination (the onset of gravity), and the third and final music coming a little after Galaxy formation. Then ending with the creation of Aman the world at about 5-8 billion years with the time for the Valar to remake it.

In regards to my earlier post, [because now I'm wondering] does anyone have any suggestion on how long it took the Valar to make Aman? [the first time around].

[burrahobbit]

"The music of the Ainur is in no meaningful way analogous to vibrations in the medium of the early universe."
hmm why not?

Because the Music happened before the Universe existed.

[Beren87]

Because the Music happened before the Universe existed.

Not really, The Music was the creation of the universe.

[HCIsland]

In regards to my earlier post, [because now I'm wondering] does anyone have any suggestion on how long it took the Valar to make Aman? [the first time around].

As the universe had yet to be created yet, I would assume that time had not yet began. As such questions as to how long it takes would be meaningless.

How's that for an answer? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

H.C.

[Beren87]

Actually, now I see your point. "Make" wasn't exactly the best word to use, perhaps shape would be better. Let me reask it.

How long did it take the Valar and various Maiar to reshape the world in preperation for the elves?

[ April 07, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

[burrahobbit]

Not really

Yeah really.

The Ainur did there singing "beyond the confines of the World." Then when they "entered into [the material universe]... naught was yet made."

For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshadowing; but now they had entered in at the begining of time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it.

To distil that, the Music was before the Universe existed.

[Beren87]

Hmm. I imagined the Music as the big bang, and the universe being created thereof. I saw the universe being created as the Music was sung, and then the Valar were to go in and introduce matter and such.

The Ainur did there singing "beyond the confines of the World." Then when they "entered into [the material universe]... naught was yet made."

So what I'm saying is how long did it take them to make and shape the matter into the world. The Music [we are suggesting] created the Universe [with nothing in it, granted] or perhaps just that original speck that was to expand to become the universe.

So my question is still thus, how long did it take the Valar to make and shape after they entered into the now [appropriately named] material universe?

[burrahobbit]

I imagined the Music as the big bang

Naw, the Big Bang was more like when Eru said "It is!" ("Ea!")

So my question is still thus, how long did it take the Valar to make and shape after they entered into the now [appropriately named] material universe?

The whole time.

As I read it, Ea is sort of like a house. First you design the house, then you build it and you move in, but you aren't done with it there. Then you have to keep paying taxes on it, and you've got to pay the water bill, and the heating bill, and all of the other bills. But there is still more: what happens when the pipes freeze and burst in the winter? Well, you've got to fix the pipes. One day you might get tired of the color and opt against the original blue for pink. Then some other day you might decide that instead of a little pink house that you want a big one, so you remodel and add a couple rooms.

Do you get what I am trying to say?

[Beren87]

Do you get what I am trying to say?[

Yeah, put it in terms of a house and I can live with in it..err..with it.

See I imagined it as, they make this nice frame of a house and put on the wonderful siding and maybe a sliding glass door here or there and that's the universe. Now they need to buy beds, expresso machines, and various floral print couches to clutter the once empty house. [Those would be Aman, and M-E and such].

Naw, the Big Bang was more like when Eru said "It is!" ("Ea!")

Ahh..

[burrahobbit]

Yeah, the Music is just the planning, all the other stuff came after.

[Beren87]

So...back to my original question. How long did it take them to make Arda?

[burrahobbit]

Like I said, the whole time. They never stopped making until the end, when they'll make again.

[Beren87]

And thus was the habitation of the Children of Illuvatar established at last in the Deeps of Time and among the innumerable stars

Until then is what I mean. When they finally got everything in the house and are ready to move in.

[Gorothlammothiel]

Beren, if I may I would like to pull of one of Burrahobbit's points. Your question is how long did it take for the creation of Arda to be complete, but surely without such a creation the concept of time would also be irrelevant? "In the depths of time and among the immnumerable stars" perhaps states how time wasn't measured, as such.

(Relating back to theology on that point, the fact that the Arda was created in a time frame that is incomprehendable to us, could be a reflection on that the story of our own world's creation, in the view of a Christian, is that the world was created in 7 days-though how long those days were not mentioned apart from the fact darkness was night and light was day.)

The formally mentioned theory could also suggest another link between Tolkien's "unintentional allegory" in the books. The fact that he himself was Christian and most probably a believer in the creation story, he may have used the idea in his works so that the timescale of Arda's creation need not be questionned, or rather answered.

(And HCIsland, I too have read "The Elegant Universe", though I confess only in part as some chapters dealt with issues I have not yet a relavant understanding of, and believe the suggestion of "string-theory", "super-string-theory" and "m-theory" quite feasible).

[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Gorothlammothiel ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I agree with burrahobbit's explanation of the Ainulindalë: the Big Bang (i.e. the creation of Eä, the Universe) takes place when Eru says 'Eä!'.

But that means that before the Big Bang it was impossible for the Ainur to play Music (at least music as we know it), because Time didn't exist: Time, as well the other dimensions of the universe (Eä), is created with the Big Bang ...

[ May 10, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

And I am to answer Beren87's question, by trying to establish a 'Big Bang chronology' for the Ainulindalë. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

No time: Eru and the Ainur sing.

Time = 0, Big Bang: Eru says 'Eä!'. The Ainur see Eä, the world that is; and some of them descend into it.

From Time = 0 to 10.3 billion years: the Valar construct the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar: Arda, (the Solar System and the Earth) is created.

From Time = 10.3 billion years: The Valar take shape, and work on the Earth, preparing it for the awakening of the Children of Ilúvatar

[Noxomanus]

This is all very interesting but it doesn't really relate to the world as Tolkien had it created.It's a fact physics don't really apply and there are many impossibilities in his world in regard to this as has been pointed out before.Winged Drakes and the great Eagles are other examples,it's impossible for animals their size to be able to fly. The biggest known flying creatures,pterosaurs like Quetzalcoatlus, had wingspans of 12-13 meters wich certainly isn't the size of Smaug and Thorondor,and these pterosaurs could only fly because of extreme weightsaving features.It would also be impossible for Trolls to be created from stone or to place huge power and a mind into a Ring.Yet we dont care and enjoy these stories...Don't make too great a fuss about the explainability of Tolkiens world.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Dare I hope to resurrect this thread? Well, as it has been in my thoughts off and on ever since I first spotted it so long ago, I must give it a try!

First, I must add my agreement with burrahobbit's point about the Music being before the Universe and Eru's "Ea!" bringing it into existence. (Yes, even the stuff about the blue and pink decor schemes. After all, didn't they have to change out lightbulbs quite often in Arda?) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The fundamental nature of the Ainulindale, I would argue, has nothing to do with amplitudes and normal modes - it has to do with art and artistry.(Aiwendil March25, 2003)

But were not the scientific disciplines originally designated “arts?” Indeed, some fine art is based upon mathematical rendering into visual or sound media. And what if the mathematical representations of string theory were translated into one of these traditional artistic media? By analogy, the “music” would be the representation of the reality, much as the equations describe the universe in physical science. They are not the reality, but the representation of it, much as the original Music was the representation of themes to be included in the eventual Universe, but are indeed before it and not related to matter at all. But how to speak it into existence, how to speak “Ea!” and make it so? This capability, in Tolkien’s realm is reserved for Eru alone. So, perhaps we could say the Ainur are like astrophysicists, physical chemists, quantum physicists, plasma physicists, atomic physicists, etc., who specialize in a particular area (theme) and thus, do not know the entire reach of the Music, but who, when placed in the material Universe as created by Eru, have some influence over their individual thematic specialties.

That's just one thought of many, but it is the only one I can put straight enough to post at the present time. Thanks for the thread, lindil!

Cheers,
Lyta

[Finwe]

Before Ea was created, I don't think that the human idea of time existed, but some sort of it did. Why else would Eru's halls be called The Timeless Halls? Time probably does move much more slowly there, and thus, an outsider could probably become quite lost in those Halls.

As for the scientific angle, the Valar remind me of a team assembled for, say, research purposes or archaeological purposes. You need specialists in many different fields, who are united by a common goal. The Valar were like that. Each specialized in creating different materials, working with different materials, preserving different materials, or nurturing different materials. For example, Aulë was "in charge" of all the materials that Arda was made of, whereas Yavanna was "in charge" of all growing things. Each had their own purpose, but they were united by a common goal, like a modern research team.

[Aiwendil]

Lyta_Underhill wrote:

But were not the scientific disciplines originally designated “arts?”

Of course, whether science is an art depends on how you define "art". But regardless of how scientific disciplines may once have been perceived, science is fundamentally and profoundly different from such things as music, painting, and literature. Science is the business of predicting and describing data. Art is the business of producing certain desired responses from the human mind (I would say it is the business of producing aesthetic pleasure).

Indeed, some fine art is based upon mathematical rendering into visual or sound media.

If what you mean (and this is the only way I think I can understand this statement) is that some art can be reduced to mathematics, I agree. As a matter of fact, all art can be reduced to mathematics. But this should be no surprise, since we live in a mathematical world where, as it happens, everything can be reduced to mathematics.

And what if the mathematical representations of string theory were translated into one of these traditional artistic media? By analogy, the “music” would be the representation of the reality, much as the equations describe the universe in physical science.

This would amount to a sophisticated method of encoding the equations for superstrings. Certainly one could call such a sequence of sounds "music". But if one did this, one would also have to be willing to call a book containing the equations for superstrings "literature".

But then perhaps I am old-fashioned in thinking that the purpose of music is to sound good.

But unless one adopts a very strange view of art, one cannot escape the fact that the scientific impulse is vastly different from the artistic.

I don't think the Ainur were supposed to be encoding equations, based on some post-modernist idea about how to construct music. That is, within the context of Tolkien's legendarium, putting the cart before the horse. They were simply creating music - art - and the world formed thereby is thus fundamentally an artistic one.

Instead of the natural world creating humans, who develop art, Eru created the Ainur, who developed art, which created the natural world.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Finwe, Time was created with Eä, Time didn't exist before Eä was created by Eru [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

(when the Valar entered into Eä ...) but they had entered in at the beggining of Time
Ainulindalë; The Silmarillion

The Timeles Halls are so called because there it is no Time, not even a 'slower time'. In Big Bang theories, Time is also created with the Universe, it didn't exist before the Big Bang (of course, in this case 'before' is not the correct word, because it implies precedence in time and it is meaningless if time does not exist, but I hope you understand what I mean).

The no existance of time 'before' Eä is created poses a new question: how it is possible to sing without time? Music, at least, the kind of music we can understand, needs time to be produced. In my opinion, a possible explanation for this paradox would be to think that the Music was not only sang before Eä was created, but that it is being sung during all the history of Eä [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Lyta_Underhill]

Science is the business of predicting and describing data. Art is the business of producing certain desired responses from the human mind (I would say it is the business of producing aesthetic pleasure).

Certainly that is a good argument for their differences, but, call me super-old-fashioned, I tend to believe in the basic aims being very similar if not the same. The art in science to me lies in the description, the elucidation, the mathematics, if you will. Certainly it behaves according to strict laws, but these laws are ever changing, ever being refined. That, to me, is an art, even though its roots are strictly governed by mathematics (in itself an exercise in aesthetics, as I myself have experienced upon finding an elegant solution to a bothersome infinite series equation once upon a time or seeing an even numbered solution to a stoichometric equation, or a neat row of final derivations of the Schrodinger equation (or when I managed to get all the signs right in a circuit diagram, which was RARE!). Anyway, I suppose my point is that there is aesthetic value in science and always room for expansion into the unknown by careful steps. The aim may be different from the fine arts, but I believe the pleasure is essentially the same.

Certainly one could call such a sequence of sounds "music". But if one did this, one would also have to be willing to call a book containing the equations for superstrings "literature".

One could make this claim, although it would be out of the mainstream. But, if one's tastes ran to an evening's contemplation of elegant equations rather than a good story, then one could call it literature.

I don't think the Ainur were supposed to be encoding equations, based on some post-modernist idea about how to construct music. That is, within the context of Tolkien's legendarium, putting the cart before the horse. They were simply creating music - art - and the world formed thereby is thus fundamentally an artistic one.

Perhaps the main problem here is that our definitions of the functions of the Ainur seem to be different. I do not mean to say that they are literally scientists of different disciplines and they are translating equations, but that each one's part in the Music is analogous
to the specialist in a particular overreaching field, such as physics as a whole is. It is not a literal comparison but an analogy. Each has specialized in a particular theme of the overall Music; none has full knowledge of it except Eru Iluvatar. Who is to say HOW they made the Music, though? Indeed how can one assume that this music is literally related to our own understanding of what is traditionally known as music? I wonder if it is more related to the abstract "Music of the Spheres?" (I'm not too familiar with this concept, however, if someone else would like to take that up.)

Instead of the natural world creating humans, who develop art, Eru created the Ainur, who developed art, which created the natural world.

So perhaps our world is completely opposite to that drawn by Tolkien through the Ainulindale and forward? Interesting idea, if you posit that humans are the ones who develop art. In my own (admittedly crackpot!) view, much of art is already there and is simply uncovered by Man, just as physics is the uncovering of the ever-present nature of the Universe, which was there long before anyone arose to attempt its description. I've also been known to espouse the view that the very behavior of the Universe is influenced by our attempts to view it, keeping a complete explanation, in effect, just out of reach in some cases.

Thanks for a lively discussion, Aiwendil! Always a pleasure! Forgive my admitted shortcomings in certain areas!

Cheers,
Lyta

EDIT: I missed your post Amarie, while prattling on with my own! But your point is a good one:

how it is possible to sing without time? Music, at least, the kind of music we can understand, needs time to be produced.

Perhaps this would speak to the Music being fundamentally different from music as we understand it then? Or perhaps we simply cannot imagine music without meter. In a way, I believe it would be so overwhelming, with the themes rising and falling and interweaving all together, that a mere mortal such as myself could not bear to 'hear' it in its fullness.

[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Aiwendil]

Lyta Underhill wrote:

The art in science to me lies in the description, the elucidation, the mathematics, if you will. Certainly it behaves according to strict laws, but these laws are ever changing, ever being refined.

Science behaves in accordance with one very strict law: all that it is about is describing and predicting data. This is a very rigorous and very rigid definition, which is of course nothing like the definition of art (whatever that might be). I don't think the purpose of science ever changes.

That, to me, is an art, even though its roots are strictly governed by mathematics (in itself an exercise in aesthetics

I certainly appreciate the aesthetic appeal of mathematics (though when I'm embroiled in the depths of, say, a complicated partial differential equation, I must confess that the aesthetic appeal is rather lost on me). But are you really prepared to say that mathematics is aesthetics? Surely aesthetics depends upon the peculiar structure of the human brain, not just upon the logical structure of the world.

But I'm not even sure what we're arguing about any longer. The original discussion involved the possibility of some kind of meaningful connection between the music of the Ainur and the vibrations of superstrings in the early universe. I stand by my opinion that such connections are nothing more than coincidents.

One could make this claim, although it would be out of the mainstream. But, if one's tastes ran to an evening's contemplation of elegant equations rather than a good story, then one could call it literature.

Certainly one could say that one enjoyed it - but would it really be correct to call it "literature"? Admittedly, as I pointed out elsewhere recently, all definitions are arbitrary. So one can certainly call it "literature" if one likes, as long as one adopts a certain definition for "literature". But I don't think that this would be the usual way in which the term is used. "Literature" as an art form seems to me to be something quite different from equations.

I do not mean to say that they are literally scientists of different disciplines and they are translating equations, but that each one's part in the Music is analogous
to the specialist in a particular overreaching field, such as physics as a whole is. It is not a literal comparison but an analogy.

I agree with the analogy, as far as it seems to me to go.

Indeed how can one assume that this music is literally related to our own understanding of what is traditionally known as music?

That's an interesting question. But I am of the opinion that in reading the Ainulindale, we are to think of "music" as we know it - traditional music, even, probably, western music. The evidence for this view is by no means conclusive. But it seems to me that since the Silmarillion is already a myth, it isn't quite right to hyper-mythologize, as it were, a certain portion of it. In other words, why should we take the Ainulindale specifically as being any less "true" than the other, also clearly mythological, tales? Note also that the song of the Ainur is explicitly compared with the music of "harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and . . . countless choirs singing with words". And it is at least suggested that some echo of the music of the Ainur survives in the sound of water, and that there is an association for the Elves between song and water.

physics is the uncovering of the ever-present nature of the Universe, which was there long before anyone arose to attempt its description. I've also been known to espouse the view that the very behavior of the Universe is influenced by our attempts to view it, keeping a complete explanation, in effect, just out of reach in some cases.

Forgive me for veering slightly off the topic, but these two views sound contradictory. The first view, that physics exists to be discovered, seems to me to be the very opposite of the rather constructivist view that the rules change in response to how we go about investigating them.

Thanks for a lively discussion, Aiwendil! Always a pleasure!

I've enjoyed it as well.

Amarie wrote:

how it is possible to sing without time? Music, at least, the kind of music we can understand, needs time to be produced.

To which Lyta Underhill replied:

Perhaps this would speak to the Music being fundamentally different from music as we understand it then? Or perhaps we simply cannot imagine music without meter. In a way, I believe it would be so overwhelming, with the themes rising and falling and interweaving all together, that a mere mortal such as myself could not bear to 'hear' it in its fullness.

If there were truly no time, music would be impossible, for sound would be impossible.

Tolkien does call Iluvatar's dwelling the "Timeless Halls", but like most fictional depictions of supposedly timeless places or people, it has time quite distinctly built into it. Without time there can be no creation, for that implies the existence at one time of a thing that did not exist at another. There can be no seeking for the Secret Fire alone in the void, no speech, no "at first" or "then" (words which are used in the Ainulindale), etc.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I don't think the purpose of science ever changes.

I had not meant to imply that the purpose changes; merely the laws derived from said rigorous observations. Of course, now, experimental methods do change!

But are you really prepared to say that mathematics is aesthetics? Surely aesthetics depends upon the peculiar structure of the human brain, not just upon the logical structure of the world.

I am not prepared to equate the two; however, I would say that there is an aesthetic character to mathematics. That does not make it necessary for the two to be equal, but merely that the exercise of mathematics seems to satisfy an aspect of the human psyche that longs for order in a quantifiable and observable way. In that way, mathematics satisfies an aesthetic requirement.

The original discussion involved the possibility of some kind of meaningful connection between the music of the Ainur and the vibrations of superstrings in the early universe. I stand by my opinion that such connections are nothing more than coincidents.

I believe the original topic was a wider consideration of the connections (coincidental or meaningful) between concepts in physics and the Music of the Ainulindale. String Theory is an elegant way to look at the universe, but I do not understand its intricacies well enough to draw any parallels myself. I suppose I just decided to shift to the variable idea of possibilities and analogies for the Music that do not specifically address the physical concepts, but the concept that physics could be another way to explain the Music (not necessarily that the Ainur would have considered such a thing but that we, as having access to physics as it is currently, would think of such a thing). I couldn't begin to explain it, though!

Note also that the song of the Ainur is explicitly compared with the music of "harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and . . . countless choirs singing with words".

I can't argue with that! I don't seek to destroy or bring the myth down to material level, but to rhapsodize upon it, rather to speculate that those who wrote the histories might compare the Music to such things, because those are the things they know and can understand. Certainly the aforesaid instruments would have to be extraordinary to produce the Music as it would filter into Arda as the sound of water and wind on the mountains, etc. I wonder at the cosmic nature of these 'instruments,' and wonder if the songs played upon them could have a mathematical aesthetic such as you have said, permeates the entire world, for everything can be reduced to mathematics.

Forgive me for veering slightly off the topic, but these two views sound contradictory. The first view, that physics exists to be discovered, seems to me to be the very opposite of the rather constructivist view that the rules change in response to how we go about investigating them.

The problem here may lie in my abysmal sentence structure, rather than my expressed meaning. My point in the first view is not that physics exists to be discovered, but that the universe does, and physics is an applied art to the end of that discovery. I did not mean to say physics was around from the beginning. It is a developed art/science, a discipline. The second point referred to observed behavior and not necessarily the rules themselves. Certainly there are precautions and indirect methods to skirt the problem of observer affecting an experiment; my point was not that the laws themselves change everytime we look at something. I hope that was clearer; not sure though! I can't think of anything else at the moment, but I hope eventually to be able to add something new!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Aiwendil]

I had not meant to imply that the purpose changes; merely the laws derived from said rigorous observations. Of course, now, experimental methods do change!

Ah. Yes, our knowledge concerning the true laws changes as we discover more things.

I am not prepared to equate the two; however, I would say that there is an aesthetic character to mathematics. That does not make it necessary for the two to be equal, but merely that the exercise of mathematics seems to satisfy an aspect of the human psyche that longs for order in a quantifiable and observable way. In that way, mathematics satisfies an aesthetic requirement.

I agree with this as well.

I suppose I just decided to shift to the variable idea of possibilities and analogies for the Music that do not specifically address the physical concepts, but the concept that physics could be another way to explain the Music (not necessarily that the Ainur would have considered such a thing but that we, as having access to physics as it is currently, would think of such a thing). I couldn't begin to explain it, though!

If what you're saying is that the music of the Ainur plays a role in Arda similar to the role played by the equations of physics in our world, then I agree. That role is, specifically, to describe the world. Note that there is a slight difference with regard to the metaphysics of free will and of Iluvatar's intervention in Arda.

But I still think that if one is interested in the fundamental nature of the creation of Arda, it is artistic in a way in which our universe is not.

I can't argue with that! I don't seek to destroy or bring the myth down to material level, but to rhapsodize upon it, rather to speculate that those who wrote the histories might compare the Music to such things, because those are the things they know and can understand. Certainly the aforesaid instruments would have to be extraordinary to produce the Music as it would filter into Arda as the sound of water and wind on the mountains, etc. I wonder at the cosmic nature of these 'instruments,' and wonder if the songs played upon them could have a mathematical aesthetic such as you have said, permeates the entire world, for everything can be reduced to mathematics.

Yes, I certainly think there's an interesting argument to be had concerning whether the music of the Ainur was literally music or not. As I said, I come down on the literal side. But I can certainly see the points in favor of the other and the appeal of that side.

I hope that was clearer; not sure though!

Yes, I think I understand you now. I feared that you might be a constructivist! But I think that we are largely in agreement.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Yes, I think I understand you now. I feared that you might be a constructivist!

I didn't really understand what a 'constructivist' was, and I decided to look it up; it turns out to be some sweeping mode of thought that may have its roots or at least its most common expression in educational methodology. When I read the method, what I got out of it was, "the students run the class and the teacher watches and makes a few comments." Sounded like chaos, really. But, back to the real purpose!

Yes, I certainly think there's an interesting argument to be had concerning whether the music of the Ainur was literally music or not. As I said, I come down on the literal side. But I can certainly see the points in favor of the other and the appeal of that side.

I think the idea that made this particular concept resonate (so to speak) was the constant striving of certain mathematicians and astronomers (Ptolemy, Pythagoreas, Kepler, etc.) to find a harmony in the mathematical descriptions of the motions of the planets, thus my comment earlier on the "Music of the Spheres." I searched about a little a found that the mathematical models of the angular velocity of the planets had been worked out to correspond to certain musical ratios, mainly thirds (major and minor) and fifths. I cannot remember how they correspond, though. Kepler had worked out these harmonic intervals for the 6 known planets in his time, and it turned out that the other subsequently discovered planets--Uranus, Neptune, Pluto--also corresponded to musical ratios with their angular velocity.

On another note, I ran up on a mathematician who was investigating crop circles, and the circles he had looked at followed these same harmonic ratios. Kepler had derived a 'song' for each planet, based upon his mathematical descriptions of their motions and positions.

The concept of the Music of the Spheres seems to draw science, philosophy and religion together somehow in that all seek this harmony. The sacred songs of medieval times were constrained to the 'perfect' harmonic ratios (1, 5, and 6, I think, but I'm working from a 25 year old memory here!). The permeation of this idea of harmonics, music and the realization of that music through mathematical means, links it to the material through the idea that the universe can be described mathematically. And it seems the idea of the different aspects (planets in my analogy) are ruled by different musical tones and progressions. If I recall correctly as well, the angels were the ones who pushed the crystal spheres around in their perfect orbits, so that the music could be made...I don't want to draw a one to one angel-Valar comparison, but I did want to throw out these ramblings to see if anyone could put it together more adeptly than I!

Cheers!
Lyta

[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Aiwendil]

When I read the method, what I got out of it was, "the students run the class and the teacher watches and makes a few comments." Sounded like chaos, really. But, back to the real purpose!

Yes, constructivism is I suppose a rather broad trend that has affected quite a few disciplines. In philosophy of science, constructivism (which was championed by Thomas Kuhn) is (broadly speaking) the view that science is just a social construct and is not in any way more priveliged, more objective, or more 'true' than other social constructs. This is in opposition to the more traditional view that science is the business of discovering true things about the world, and that it is based in objectivity.

I think the idea that made this particular concept resonate (so to speak) was the constant striving of certain mathematicians and astronomers (Ptolemy, Pythagoreas, Kepler, etc.) to find a harmony in the mathematical descriptions of the motions of the planets, thus my comment earlier on the "Music of the Spheres."

Yes, I can see how this is a very appealing notion. And indeed the Ainulindale fits rather well with it. But I think that in Tolkien's creation legend there is altogether a greater emphasis on art, on 'sub-creation', on the will of the artist, than on balance, mathematics, and perfection - not that I think that these two things are in opposition but rather that they differ subtly.

The concept of the Music of the Spheres seems to draw science, philosophy and religion together somehow in that all seek this harmony.

I'm not sure I see how this is true. Certainly there is something philosophical about the idea, but not any more so (I think) than in any sort of science, if one looks at it hard enough. And religion? Certainly one could invent religion to 'explain' the Music of the Spheres, but so could one invent religion in any case, to 'explain' whatever aspect of science one would like.

The sacred songs of medieval times were constrained to the 'perfect' harmonic ratios (1, 5, and 6, I think, but I'm working from a 25 year old memory here!).

Hmm. The 'perfect' intervals are the octave, the fourth, and the fifth. And indeed these were the intervals that were at first deemed 'consonant', when harmony was young. I can't recall at the moment when the third and the sixth were admitted as consonances, but I think it must have been during the middle ages (possibly the late middle ages).

But perhaps it would do us well to recall that in the end, Kepler's theory about planetary orbits being based on the perfect polyhedra turned out not to work. As a matter of fact, this story has become something of an morality legend among scientists. For despite spending most of his life working on the theory and staking so much of himself on it, when it became clear that the theory could not work, he accepted this and admitted the objective inadequacies of his cherished view. And thanks to his willingness to admit this, out of his failed attempt came several important laws concerning planetary motion.

I'm not sure that that story has all that much bearing on the discussion at hand, but I find it quite inspirational - and also a good warning against assuming an underlying connection between the basic physics of the universe and personal aesthetics.

[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[yavanna II]

I'm a student of the City Of Mandaluyong Science High School in the Philippines, and based on what I've learned(there are only a few)physics can be applied in the ainiundale(pls correct me, I can't remember Tolkien things right)when the music of Eru was played. the other parts, well, I don't think Physics could be applied, esp the part where they made Arda. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Aiwendil wrote:

If there were truly no time, music would be impossible, for sound would be impossible.

Tolkien does call Iluvatar's dwelling the "Timeless Halls", but like most fictional depictions of supposedly timeless places or people, it has time quite distinctly built into it. Without time there can be no creation, for that implies the existence at one time of a thing that did not exist at another. There can be no seeking for the Secret Fire alone in the void, no speech, no "at first" or "then" (words which are used in the Ainulindale), etc.

Yes, that was what I intended to say, for us, creatures that live inside Time, it is impossible to imagine how things can happen out of Time (and also out of Space). But that we cannot imagine that, doesn't mean that it is impossible. The Ainulindalë is the explanation the Valar gave to the Elves (creatures that live inside Eä, and therefore inside Time and Space) of the Creation, using words and images that Elves could understand.

It is not that the Timeless Halls are static, but that they are outside Time, outside the dimension we perceive as Time, as well as they are outside the dimensions we perceive as Space.

Considering that not only Time is required to produce the music that we know, but also matter is required, in my opinion, the Music of the Ainur cannot be the same kind of music we are used to. And also, the fact that Time and Matter are required for producing music, it is what makes me think that the Music of the Ainur is being sung during all the History of Eä, i. e., it is being sung at this very moment, and by entering into Eä it is producing the waves that are object of study of the String Theory. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[juhsstin]

what a thread! i haven't gotten through all of it yet, but i thought another thread from another messageboard might be of interest to you guys:

Sound & Geometry

the subject, some comments, plus the links therein all revolve around an uncanny phenomenon which makes me say "wow". [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]